---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/18/09: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:32 AM - Wanted cracked canopy. (Buryl Hill) 2. 02:23 AM - Re: First Start of an O-200 (Ashley) 3. 05:02 AM - Re: 601HDS to LSA (cherring) 4. 05:43 AM - Re: First Start of an O-200 (Peter W Johnson) 5. 06:25 AM - Re: check your rudder bearing (LarryMcFarland) 6. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: First Start of an O-200 (Jim Belcher) 7. 06:47 AM - OT-(but just barely) NTSB Jumps the Gun... Again (Gig Giacona) 8. 07:05 AM - Re: 601HDS to LSA (Dave) 9. 07:33 AM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (Bill Naumuk) 10. 09:19 AM - HDS to LSA (Bill Shirley Mitchell) 11. 09:51 AM - Re: OT-(but just barely) NTSB Jumps the Gun... Again (Rick Lindstrom) 12. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (Jim Belcher) 13. 10:13 AM - Re: HDS to LSA (Terry Phillips) 14. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (jaybannist@cs.com) 15. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (Paul Mulwitz) 16. 11:20 AM - VGs, final (Bill Naumuk) 17. 12:42 PM - Re: HDS to LSA (Gig Giacona) 18. 01:20 PM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (Jim Belcher) 19. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (jaybannist@cs.com) 20. 03:03 PM - Re: Re: 601HDS to LSA (Jim Belcher) 21. 05:14 PM - New front Cowl (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 22. 07:42 PM - Re: First Start of an O-200 (dennis hettrick) 23. 10:35 PM - Re: First Start of an O-200 (Peter W Johnson) 24. 11:30 PM - Stuff for sale (LHusky@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:55 AM PST US From: "Buryl Hill" Subject: Zenith-List: Wanted cracked canopy. Wanted cracked canopy, clear, front or back, offering $100 bus@commspeed.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:47 AM PST US From: "Ashley" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Peter, I used a Harbor Freight hand pump ( about $5.00) but I believe if you stick a tube into the oil filter adapter and pour the oil in it should work. You just need to get some oil to the pump. You are only putting oil to the pump which is about 5 inches from the oil filter so not much oil is required. The engine should have been put together with lubrication on the internal parts. Floyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:07 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Floyd, Did you actually "pump" oil into the center hole or just fill it with an oil can? (If you pumped, did you make up a pump of some sort?) I have fitted the oil filter adapter so I could get some oil into the oil pump that way. Thanks Peter ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ashley Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2009 11:30 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Peter, Do you have an oil filter on the motor? I unscrewed the filter and pumped oil into the center hole of the filter adaptor. Unless the oil pump is primed (the above procedure will prime the pump) there is a large chance you will not get oil pressure. I removed the top spark plugs and then used the starter to turn the engine over until oil pressure was indicated. Put the plugs in and you are good to go. Floyd Wilkes 601XL O-200 ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson To: continental-list@matronics.com ; zenith-list@matronics.com ; zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 7:43 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Hi Guys, I am about to start my rebuilt O-200 for the first time. The Overhaul Manual calls for "Pre-oil the lubrication system using an external pre-oiling pressure system". I don't have one. What is the best way to ensure I have oil pressure if the motor magically starts on the first key? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matron href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="h ttp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA From: "cherring" That's pretty much what the FAA told me. Just don't make a YouTube video of yourself in your "LSA" plane flying around at 150 MPH. They did notice when one guy did that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not find an FAA inspector chasing you around to see if your plane stalls at 45 KCAS or 46. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258392#258392 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:27 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Thanks Guys (and Gals). I feel a lot better about the start up now. I did find something on the net from Fram Filters about priming the oil pump. I did use a lot of lube when I rebuilt the engine so nothing should be dry. I'll let you know how it goes. Cheers Peter _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy L. Thwing Sent: Tuesday, 18 August 2009 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Hello Peter: We went through this a couple of months ago when we overhauled the Cont. C-145 engine in our flying club 1958 Cessna 172. Go to www.eaa163.com click on flying club link. A C-145 is a early version of the O-300 which is really a O-200 with two more cylinders. The cyls. and many parts are identical. I have a Franklin engine OH manual which says that if you don't have the "pressure pre-oil system" then you remove the top spark plugs and manually turn the engine over via the prop 200 revs. We tried that on the C-145 and were unsuccessful in getting oil pressure to show. It may work on your O-200. Do you have a tube type oil pressure gauge that senses oil pressure from the engine clear up to the instrument? Do you have an electric starter? We apparently were not able to get the oil pump to prime by turning the prop by hand. We used the electric starter to spin the engine (spark plugs removed). This finally primed the pump and we had oil pressure indications. We have a oil filter adapter, but we did not have the advice that you could prime the oil pump back through the filter adapter. There are three other places to get evidence that the pump is primed and oil is pumping through the engine. 1. If you have the tube type oil pressure gauge, disconnect the oil pressure instrument line where it connects to the firewall bulkhead fitting. When the oil pump starts pumping, oil will squirt out there. 2. Face the front of the engine, look at the engine case on either side of the crank prop flange. On both the left and right, there is a pipe plug on the front of the engine case. These plugs "plug" the front end of the main oil galleries. Loosen, preferable the left plug facing the prop flange, and when oil pressure comes up, oil will come out around this plug. 3. Remove the Rocker arm cover of a front cylinder, when oil pressure comes up, it will travel through the hollow push rods and drip around the rocker shaft, etc. On our C-145, we used the oil pressure gauge tube and the front galley plug. We already had all the baffles installed making it difficult to remove a valve cover. Spinning the engine (spark plugs removed) with the electric starter, it didn't take long before oil was spurting out the oil pressure tube, and around the front gallery plug. Both were tightened and we spun the engine once more and oil pressure was indicated on the oil pressure gauge. We had a short meeting on whether there was any reason NOT to start the engine. Couldn't think of a thing. So we fired it off and it's run perfectly for over a hundred flight hours so far. We also have a first issue Cessna 150 (1959) which is currently in my back yard with a newly OH O-200 hanging on it. It's not ready for sartup yet, but when we do, we will use the above system for pre-oiling. Let us know how this works out for you. Regards, Randy, Las Vegas ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 5:43 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Hi Guys, I am about to start my rebuilt O-200 for the first time. The Overhaul Manual calls for "Pre-oil the lubrication system using an external pre-oiling pressure system". I don't have one. What is the best way to ensure I have oil pressure if the motor magically starts on the first key? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:46 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: check your rudder bearing Frank, I had the same issue last annual inspection and found the pin was not snug on the bushing ends. I made another bushing just a tad longer and it solved the problem. The bushing has to be a tight fit between the angles or it will allow motion to tear up the aluminum. I also added a little white lithium grease on assembly. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Frank Probst wrote: > The other day on my preflight I noticed a significant amount of play > in the top rudder attach point of my 601. Then I was at a fly in over > the weekend with several 601's and they all had some play. One was > really bad and the rest had quite a bit of play too. The hinge is > just a bushing running in aluminium. Mine has worn in just 100 hours. > > Has anyone come up with a better bearing idea? > > Thanks > > Frank Probst > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Stay on top of things, check email from other accounts! Check it out. > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:25 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First Start of an O-200 When I was an A&P in training, the guy who trained me had me lubricate all the engine bearings with Lubriplate during assembly. He stated we were doing this to provide lubricant before the oil system kicked in, and in case we never built oil pressure. We (I) have never had a problem as a result of this procedure, although we never happened to have an oil system that did not built pressure. It is a critical time, and it is important to monitor the oil pressure very closely. -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: OT-(but just barely) NTSB Jumps the Gun... Again From: "Gig Giacona" http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_mid_air_collision Let's look at the time line. 1. Bad Accident 2. NTSB publicly makes comment about controller. 3. Controller's Union Comes out in support of their member. 4. NTSB kicks Union out of investigation because they released information in response to the NTSB's release of information. Somebody really needs to tell NTSB to shut the hell up and do their job. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258410#258410 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:19 AM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA Why people beat themselves to death over this subject when you have organizations "out there" that have already defined aircraft that meet the definition of aircraft that a Sport Pilot can fly? They already list "Experimental Zenith 601" as acceptable. Not HD or HDS or XL...just Zenith 601. Agree with them, and FLY! Dave Flown in the Rockies, Desert SW, all the plains states west of the Mississippi and all in my lowly 601 HD! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:25 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA All- Aftermarket was a poor choice of words; after the initial A/W inspection is more accurate. As I said, the question of VGs has come up many times before, there is definitely a Catch 22 as the LSA regs apply to the HDS, and the whole mess is as clear as mud. Years ago I contacted EAA Technical as to whether you could build both sets of wings and register the same airframe to HD/HDS performance parameters and they said no. I also asked if I could add VGs to an HDS wing to achieve LSA performance and they said no. I'm not sure whether I specified the addition of VGs would be made before or after the Phase I testing. I suggest that the way to resolve this debate is to contact EAA Technical and find out whether you're allowed to add VGs to an HDS wing BEFORE Phase I testing, so I'm going to do just that and will post the response. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "cherring" Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 5:48 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA > > I think I am correct that adding VG's before the original AW Cert would > help because it would (hopefully) allow the plane to meet the LSA stall > speed limit. It isn't the VG's themselves that make it compliant or not, > it is the stall speed, which is what it is as determined during initial > flight testing. Agreed, adding them later does not allow a plane to meet > LSA it is has been previously flown outside of the criteria. > > Not sure what you mean by "aftermarket" - do you mean after the original > A/W? > > >>>>>>>> > "1. You can't add vortex generators to achieve LSA compliance because they > aren't included in the original design, but are aftermarket. " > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258258#258258 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:55 AM PST US From: Bill Shirley Mitchell Subject: Zenith-List: HDS to LSA Wow: Lots of good info, thanks everyone. My plane is not certified, yet. LSA rules state 138 for top speed, HDS top speed 150. Stall speed Dual is LSA 51, HDS is 54. It sure seems that I for peace of mind should change wings. I'm waiting for a Zenith reply. Is that wishful thinking? Bill Mitchell O-200 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:15 AM PST US From: Rick Lindstrom Subject: Re: Zenith-List: OT-(but just barely) NTSB Jumps the Gun... Again Ah, the old axiom rears its ugly head again... "When the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. When the controller screws up, the pilot dies." See the difference? Seriously though, all the post-crash finger pointing and blame shifting won't help the poor souls lost to ever diminishing airspace available to VFR ops (imho). Rick -----Original Message----- >From: Gig Giacona >Sent: Aug 18, 2009 6:47 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: OT-(but just barely) NTSB Jumps the Gun... Again > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_mid_air_collision > >Let's look at the time line. > >1. Bad Accident >2. NTSB publicly makes comment about controller. >3. Controller's Union Comes out in support of their member. >4. NTSB kicks Union out of investigation because they released information in response to the NTSB's release of information. > >Somebody really needs to tell NTSB to shut the hell up and do their job. > >-------- >W.R. "Gig" Giacona >601XL Under Construction >See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258410#258410 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:30 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA On Monday 17 August 2009 17:37, jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > As I have said before, in this provision of the LSA rules, we have a real > "Catch 22".? You build an E-AB airplane, fully expecting it to be LSA > compliant.? Then in Phase 1, you discover that the stall speed is above > allowable for LSA.? You should be able to make corrections to bring it into > compliance.? Trouble is that you have had it certified as E-AB.? That > essentially establishes the physical configuration of the airplane. It has > been flown outside the limitations for LSA.? According to a strict > interpretation of the regs, you can not now make the alterations to the > airframe to bring it into compliance.? In this case we are talking about > adding VGs, but it would also apply to something like propeller pitch that > drives the airplane faster that the LSA speed limitations.? Is that bizarre > and downright unfair?? I think it is a serious glitch in the regs that > really needs to be corrected. I think it's easy to forget that Part 23, AC43, etc etc have evolved over many years. A lot of refinment has occurred to reflect the problems in these documents. The LSA regs are relatively recent, and have had little opportunity for real world feedback. As this happens, I would expect clarification to occur in the LSA regs. Another factor is that, like a lot of other FAA regs, the onus is on the pilot in command to insure that the aircraft he/she if flying meets FAA regs. That seems, if anything, to be more true than usual with the LSA. It's the responsibility of the PIC to know that the aircraft being flown meets LSA requirements. I have a little problem with the word "certificated" as used above. EAB aircraft are not necessarily certificated in the usual sense of the word. A type certificated aircraft has a published stall speed, etc, which establishes it does or does not meet LSA requirements. The FAA does not allow modification of these aircraft to meet LSA. But there is no type certificate for EAB. Does this mean you can change it later to meet LSA requirements? It seems fuzzy to me. Perhaps there will be clarification later, although we may be better off without the clarification. :-) -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:16 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: HDS to LSA Bill You might also check out Klaus Truemper's website. His wing root fairings reduced his HDS stall speed to LSA levels. The fairings had other performance benefits. See http://www.utdallas.edu/~klaus/Airplane/airplane.html Terry At 09:19 AM 8/18/2009 -0700, you wrote: >Wow: Lots of good info, thanks everyone. My plane is not certified, yet. >LSA rules state 138 for top speed, HDS top speed 150. Stall speed Dual is >LSA 51, HDS is 54. It sure seems that I for peace of mind should change >wings. I'm waiting for a Zenith reply. Is that wishful thinking? >Bill Mitchell >O-200 Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; waiting on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA From: jaybannist@cs.com Jim, My airplane has an airworthiness certificate. I guess it is a matter of semantics; but to me, it is certified (not type certified). Jay Bannister Do not archive I have a little problem with the word "certificated" as used above. EAB aircraft are not necessarily certificated in the usual sense of the word. A type certificated aircraft has a published stall speed, etc, which establishes it does or does not meet LSA requirements. The FAA does not allow modification of these aircraft to meet LSA. But there is no type certificate for EAB. Does this mean you can change it later to meet LSA requirements? It seems fuzzy to me. Perhaps there will be clarification later, although we may be better off without the clarification. :-) -- ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:06 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA Hi Jim, I agree with all your comments. Indeed, I want to take your thoughts a few steps further. The Sport Pilot and Light Sport Aircraft rules have been incredibly successful. This is different from many other attempts to create new pilots (e.g. Recreational Pilot) and aircraft (e.g. ultralight). Some of the previous attempts have seen limited success such as the part 103 ultralights, but even those didn't have a significant impact on the National Airspace System or General Aviation. The SP/LSA rules have had a huge impact on aircraft sales and pilot licenses and will undoubtedly continue to do so. All you need to see to be sure of this is the 100 new aircraft makes/models available as factory new aircraft in the last few years. After a few months flying an S-LSA I can tell you it gets even more complicated to operate these aircraft after you solve the initial go/nogo puzzle. For example, my Tecnam Echo Super has a ground adjustable propeller. The question comes up of who has the authority to adjust the pitch on this propeller. The answer is not at all clear. Is this routine preventive maintenance or a minor or major aircraft change? As a licensed pilot with no A&P or repairman certificate I asked several knowledgeable A&Ps whether I could legally change the pitch on this prop. I got a different answer from each person I asked. This is not a listed preventive maintenance activity, so it is not definitely OK for me to do this. It is also a relatively minor thing to do and might be done before each flight to tailor the propeller to the mission at hand. The most reasonable answer I got was if it isn't written in the aircraft logs it didn't happen. Given the unusual success of the new SP/LSA rules I am sure you are right, Jim, that we will see many refinements in these rules. Eventually, nearly all the questions will have clear answers. For now, my advice to all is to be careful and worry a lot more about safety and rational thinking than whether you might exactly meet all the FAA rules or not. Paul XL awaiting engineering changes. At 10:02 AM 8/18/2009, you wrote: >I think it's easy to forget that Part 23, AC43, etc etc have evolved >over many >years. A lot of refinment has occurred to reflect the problems in these >documents. The LSA regs are relatively recent, and have had little >opportunity for real world feedback. As this happens, I would expect >clarification to occur in the LSA regs. > >Another factor is that, like a lot of other FAA regs, the onus is on >the pilot >in command to insure that the aircraft he/she if flying meets FAA regs. That >seems, if anything, to be more true than usual with the LSA. It's the >responsibility of the PIC to know that the aircraft being flown meets LSA >requirements. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:41 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: VGs, final All Attached is the EAA Tech response- very encouraging. My take is, install the VGs before Phase I testing and you're OK. Archive this with 5 stars- Hi Bill, As a matter of fact, anything that is fixed and does not require any input from the pilot that is used to reduce the stall speed of an aircraft will not jeopardize the LSA status of the aircraft . VG's, fixed slats, dimple tape that is affixed to the airfoil, and any other fixed, non-deployable aid can be used. Whether these aids actually work or not is determined during Phase 1 testing. If they do not result in a stall speed of 45 knots (52 mph) or lower, then the aircraft is not LSA compliant. The key factor is pilot input, which is why extending flaps is not allowed to meet the stall speed criteria - the pilot must do something to make the flaps extend, which adds to the pilot's workload during a critical phase of flight. If you have any further questions, please contact me. Cheers! Tim Tim Hoversten, EAA #598743 Technical Aviation Specialist From: Bill Naumuk [mailto:naumuk@windstream.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 9:39 AM To: info services Subject: Vortex Generator EAA- Once again, the question of whether vortex generators can be installed on a Zenith 601HDS wing to ensure LSA compliant stall speed has come up on the Matronics list. Can VGs be installed prior to Phase I flight testing to enhance the probability of legally meeting LSA stall performance limitations? Thanks. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: HDS to LSA From: "Gig Giacona" slandwcmitch(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Wow: Lots of good info, thanks everyone. My plane is not certified, yet. LSA rules state 138 for top speed, HDS top speed 150. Stall speed Dual is LSA 51, HDS is 54. It sure seems that I for peace of mind should change wings. I'm waiting for a Zenith reply. Is that wishful thinking? > Bill Mitchell > O-200 > Will an HDS really do 150? But even if it will that is easy to fix with a change in prop pitch and and entry in the POH that what ever RPM makes you exceed 138 not for cruise. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=258495#258495 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:37 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA On Tuesday 18 August 2009 12:25, jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Jim, > > My airplane has an airworthiness certificate. I guess it is a matter of > semantics; but to me, it is certified (not type certified). My understanding of a distinction here is that the airworthiness certificate doesn't say anything about the performance. It says the plane appears to be constructed properly. A type certificate goes further in that it says the plane was constructed in accordance with the specification associated with the type certificate, and will perform as described there. That ties it to speeds, etc etc. Yes, they are both certificates, but their meaning is distinct. Usually, when someone talks about a certificated aircraft, I think it is taken to mean a type certificated aircraft. In the LSA world, where legality is tied to performance, I don't think the airworthiness certificate defines it as an LSA. That appears to become dependent on the pilot. If the pilot knows that during testing, the aircraft did not meet LSA requirements, he/she is responsible for this. Of course, if the aircraft has a type certificate, then the performance defined for the type certificate would indicate if the plane qualifies as an LSA or not. ..and with all this, I'm going to get off my soap box, and hide back in my shop, before someone starts throwing tomatoes... -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA From: jaybannist@cs.com Jim, Couldn't find any tomatoes - - -? here - - catch this Habenero I found in my pocket.?? ( ;>) ..and with all this, I'm going to get off my soap box, and hide back in my shop, before someone starts throwing tomatoes... DO NOT ARCHIVE !! ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:34 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601HDS to LSA On Tuesday 18 August 2009 15:30, jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Jim, > > Couldn't find any tomatoes - - -? here - - catch this Habenero I found in > my pocket.?? ( ;>) Ahh, the ammo of choice. I have a Habenero patch in my garden. Smoked Habeneos crumbled on top of a salad - yum, yum. :-) -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:56 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: New front Cowl ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:00 PM PST US From: dennis hettrick Subject: RE: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 I used a pressure can set up. I took a plug out I knew was open to oil gall eys. I attached a hose from can and used regulator on air hose to pressuriz e can until the oil flowed. I kept adding pressure [no more than 25 lbs ut il panel guage read 10 lbs. I left it like this a while then turned prop so me hoping to get oil smoothed across bearings. When I started it had pressu re in 3 seconds. It worked. This was suggested by old guy who worked on mil itary equpment in Korean war including small planes. dennis From: n4546v@mindspring.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Hello Peter: We went through this a couple of months ago when we overhauled the Cont. C- 145 engine in our flying club 1958 Cessna 172. Go to www.eaa163.com click on flying club link. A C-145 is a early version of the O-300 which is really a O-200 with two mo re cylinders. The cyls. and many parts are identical. I have a Franklin engine OH manual which says that if you don't have the "p ressure pre-oil system" then you remove the top spark plugs and manually tu rn the engine over via the prop 200 revs. We tried that on the C-145 and were unsuccessful in getting oil pressure to show. It may work on your O-200. Do you have a tube type oil pressure ga uge that senses oil pressure from the engine clear up to the instrument? D o you have an electric starter? We apparently were not able to get the oil pump to prime by turning the pro p by hand. We used the electric starter to spin the engine (spark plugs re moved). This finally primed the pump and we had oil pressure indications. We have a oil filter adapter=2C but we did not have the advice that you cou ld prime the oil pump back through the filter adapter. There are three other places to get evidence that the pump is primed and oi l is pumping through the engine. 1. If you have the tube type oil pressure gauge=2C disconnect the oil pres sure instrument line where it connects to the firewall bulkhead fitting. W hen the oil pump starts pumping=2C oil will squirt out there. 2. Face the front of the engine=2C look at the engine case on either side of the crank prop flange. On both the left and right=2C there is a pipe pl ug on the front of the engine case. These plugs "plug" the front end of th e main oil galleries. Loosen=2C preferable the left plug facing the prop f lange=2C and when oil pressure comes up=2C oil will come out around this pl ug. 3. Remove the Rocker arm cover of a front cylinder=2C when oil pressure co mes up=2C it will travel through the hollow push rods and drip around the r ocker shaft=2C etc. On our C-145=2C we used the oil pressure gauge tube and the front galley pl ug. We already had all the baffles installed making it difficult to remove a valve cover. Spinning the engine (spark plugs removed) with the electric starter=2C it d idn't take long before oil was spurting out the oil pressure tube=2C and ar ound the front gallery plug. Both were tightened and we spun the engine on ce more and oil pressure was indicated on the oil pressure gauge. We had a short meeting on whether there was any reason NOT to start the engine. Co uldn't think of a thing. So we fired it off and it's run perfectly for ove r a hundred flight hours so far. We also have a first issue Cessna 150 (1959) which is currently in my back yard with a newly OH O-200 hanging on it. It's not ready for sartup yet=2C but when we do=2C we will use the above system for pre-oiling. Let us know how this works out for you. Regards=2C Randy=2C Las Vegas ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson 601-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday=2C August 17=2C 2009 5:43 PM Subject: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Hi Guys=2C I am about to start my rebuilt O-200 for the first time. The Overhaul Manua l calls for =93Pre-oil the lubrication system using an external pre-oiling pressure system=94. I don=92t have one. What is the best way to ensure I ha ve oil pressure if the motor magically starts on the first key? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://zodiac.cpc-world.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhr ef="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c - Release Date: 08/17/09 18:04:00 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:10 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 Hi Guys, I made up a pressure oiler and fed it into the pressure gauge outlet. I have oil coming out of both the front oil gallery plugs so looks like were good to go. If the weather is OK tomorrow I'll see if she starts (and has some good oil pressure readings!). Thanks Peter _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dennis hettrick Sent: Wednesday, 19 August 2009 12:29 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: First Start of an O-200 I used a pressure can set up. I took a plug out I knew was open to oil galleys. I attached a hose from can and used regulator on air hose to pressurize can until the oil flowed. I kept adding pressure [no more than 25 lbs util panel guage read 10 lbs. I left it like this a while then turned prop some hoping to get oil smoothed across bearings. When I started it had pressure in 3 seconds. It worked. This was suggested by old guy who worked on military equpment in Korean war including small planes. dennis ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:15 PM PST US From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Stuff for sale List, I have 2 CZAW factory built 12 gal tanks with the senders recessed in the top of the tank for sale. They come with the caps also. They are completely custom and they are really nice tanks. I also have a complete set of composite gear for sale with all the metal brackets factory made. This gear has 320 hrs. on it. They have the light weight gold wheels on them with brand new tires and brake pads. They also come with very nice wheel pants. I also have the front strut with matching tire and wheel pants. I may have other things come up since I just bought a Quick Build Kit. The landing gear will also come with the CZAW plans for the gear. If you have not installed your gear channel, then this is easy. If you have, you will have to remove it and make a new one that is a little deeper. Very nice parts. I am open to offers or other stuff like, radios, transponder, instruments, O200 FWF stuff, ???? I know that I at least will have a flap control tube for sale and I am unsure what else. Rudder pedals will be for sale, but I just do not know which ones yet? The CZAW ones are really nice and I may swap them out. I am unsure about selling the CZAW canopy. It is nice and if it fits good on my QBK, I will use it and sell the other canopy. I wish I could use this gear, but it would be to much to retro it into the QBK. Not undoable, just not for me. I want to fly soon. Email me off list for pictures of the parts. Larry Husky Madras, Oregon Back in the game!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.