---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/06/09: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:43 AM - Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 (John Goodings) 2. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 09:16 AM - UK Mods (roger lambert) 4. 09:16 AM - Re: CH2000 vs HDS (Bill Naumuk) 5. 09:24 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 (Doug - SportAviation) 6. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 (fgantt@texaviation.com) 7. 11:53 AM - Re: UK Mods (Gig Giacona) 8. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: UK Mods (jaybannist@cs.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:59 AM PST US From: John Goodings Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 I have not flown a CH2000. In my opinion, a Cherokee 140 would NOT be a good primer for a CH601HD or HDS. An aircraft with a control wheel (as in the CH2000) is NOT a good primer for the stick in an HD or HDS. I don't think it would prepare a relatively low-time pilot (like me!) for the very sensitive pitch control in an HD or HDS. John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:35 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 Hi John, I agree with you, but your comment got me thinking. The more different model planes you fly, the more likely you will learn to control your pitch and other attitude components by visual feedback rather than thinking a certain force will get a known response. Even flying the exact same plane from one extreme loading to another can make a big difference in pitch response. Once you learn to use visual feedback for you attitude control it gets much easier to fly any plane and to switch from one to another. That said, each make and model flies differently from all others. The only way to really get appropriate experience is to fly the exact make and model of interest. Perhaps that is why you need to make three landings in the given model before taking passengers. Insurance companies and brokers are very good at finding close substitutes for rare planes. To qualify for insurance in a CH601XL I had one broker tell me I needed to get time in anything with a 601 in the model and another tell me I needed time in the exact same model to qualify. Paul XL awaiting engineering changes do not archive At 07:43 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: >I have not flown a CH2000. In my opinion, a Cherokee 140 would NOT >be a good primer for a CH601HD or HDS. An aircraft with a control >wheel (as in the CH2000) is NOT a good primer for the stick in an HD >or HDS. I don't think it would prepare a relatively low-time pilot >(like me!) for the very sensitive pitch control in an HD or HDS. > >John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: UK Mods From: roger lambert Perhaps this is too obvious, but how does one after drilling out those solid rivits in the center spar carry through, determine where to drill the top hole in the "angles" at the precise spot to match those holes to put a bolt through. I would think a video of that entire process would be very interesting. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:47 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH2000 vs HDS Phill- From previous posts, the Grumman Trainer is the closest GA airplane to the HDS as far as handling is concerned. Problem is, there are probably more Zeniths in the air than Grummans these days. The Cherokee is a close second choice, more available, and might be what I'll check out in. To tell the truth, I think it's more a matter of self-confidence, and I'm not sure I have enough myself. I know of two cases where owners didn't have any transition training at all, but did their Phase I flying out of quiet airports with plenty of tarmac and had no problems. I guess the question is, "Can you fly the pattern while constantly monitoring your engine gauges?" And, "Does your airport have plenty of alternate landing sites nearby?" If you have tight approaches with trees all around.... Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryMcFarland" Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:17 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: CH2000 vs HDS > > Phill, > Either a CH 2000 or a Cherokee 140 would be a good primer for the HDS. > Perhaps a little more sluggish, but would get the > job done. The response rate for the HDS will be a bit quicker, but if > you're current and remember to fly the plane, you're > going to get along with the HDS in any case. The fine point will be > getting it set on the mains while holding the nose gear off > to slowdown and then ease it on. The rest will seem very natural. The HDS > does not present contrary or difficult > to master flight characteristics. It's really sweet.to fly. Recommend > long term, electric elevator and aileron trim tabs. > Pitch it for the middle ground. > Best regards, > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > 601corvair wrote: >> I am wondering if anyone has flown both an HDS and a CH2000 (Alarus)? If >> so, how comparable are the flight characteristics? >> Would the CH2000 be a good training platform for an HDS? >> >> Thanks phill hartig >> > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:51 AM PST US From: "Doug - SportAviation" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 I've been told that a Grumman is a close approximation. Even to the pitchiness. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 Hi John, I agree with you, but your comment got me thinking. The more different model planes you fly, the more likely you will learn to control your pitch and other attitude components by visual feedback rather than thinking a certain force will get a known response. Even flying the exact same plane from one extreme loading to another can make a big difference in pitch response. Once you learn to use visual feedback for you attitude control it gets much easier to fly any plane and to switch from one to another. That said, each make and model flies differently from all others. The only way to really get appropriate experience is to fly the exact make and model of interest. Perhaps that is why you need to make three landings in the given model before taking passengers. Insurance companies and brokers are very good at finding close substitutes for rare planes. To qualify for insurance in a CH601XL I had one broker tell me I needed to get time in anything with a 601 in the model and another tell me I needed time in the exact same model to qualify. Paul XL awaiting engineering changes do not archive At 07:43 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: >I have not flown a CH2000. In my opinion, a Cherokee 140 would NOT >be a good primer for a CH601HD or HDS. An aircraft with a control >wheel (as in the CH2000) is NOT a good primer for the stick in an HD >or HDS. I don't think it would prepare a relatively low-time pilot >(like me!) for the very sensitive pitch control in an HD or HDS. > >John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:39 AM PST US From: "fgantt@texaviation.com" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 GuysI have a couple of 100 hours in a Grumman Tiger and it is a slick airplane and light on the controls. The Tiger could be used as a good transition but you fly the plane by the numbers and I do not have any time in a Zenith 601/650 to compare. I did some work in a Czech Sport Cruiser and the instructor that I used had also flown a 601xl and said the handling was very similar.The airplane I used is located in the DFW area.Floyd ---------------------------------------- From: "Doug - SportAviation" Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 I've been told that a Grumman is a close approximation. Even to the pitchiness. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 10/05/09 Hi John, I agree with you, but your comment got me thinking. The more different model planes you fly, the more likely you will learn to control your pitch and other attitude components by visual feedback rather than thinking a certain force will get a known response. Even flying the exact same plane from one extreme loading to another can make a big difference in pitch response. Once you learn to use visual feedback for you attitude control it gets much easier to fly any plane and to switch from one to another. That said, each make and model flies differently from all others. The only way to really get appropriate experience is to fly the exact make and model of interest. Perhaps that is why you need to make three landings in the given model before taking passengers. Insurance companies and brokers are very good at finding close substitutes for rare planes. To qualify for insurance in a CH601XL I had one broker tell me I needed to get time in anything with a 601 in the model and another tell me I needed time in the exact same model to qualify. Paul XL awaiting engineering changes do not archive At 07:43 AM 10/6/2009, you wrote: >I have not flown a CH2000. In my opinion, a Cherokee 140 would NOT >be a good primer for a CH601HD or HDS. An aircraft with a control >wheel (as in the CH2000) is NOT a good primer for the stick in an HD >or HDS. I don't think it would prepare a relatively low-time pilot >(like me!) for the very sensitive pitch control in an HD or HDS. > >John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Toronto. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:41 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: UK Mods From: "Gig Giacona" With this or something like it. http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_568.htm -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266844#266844 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: UK Mods From: jaybannist@cs.com Or like this.? An A3 rivet tail will fit in a #30 hole (for an A4 rivet) and an A4 rivet tail will fit a #20 hole (for an A5 rivet). -----Original Message----- From: Gig Giacona Sent: Tue, Oct 6, 2009 1:52 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: UK Mods With this or something like it. http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation/14018/css/14018_568.htm -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=266844#266844 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.