---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/08/09: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:09 AM - Chat Reminder (George Race) 2. 07:48 AM - tooling holes (djluscher) 3. 09:06 AM - Zodiac Series Checklist (Bill Naumuk) 4. 09:12 AM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (lwhitlow) 5. 09:30 AM - Re: Zodiac Series Checklist (Carlos Sa) 6. 09:44 AM - Re: Zodiac Series Checklist (Bill Naumuk) 7. 09:47 AM - Re: Zodiac Series Checklist (Doug - SportAviation) 8. 11:15 AM - Re: tooling holes (LarryMcFarland) 9. 11:15 AM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (leinad) 10. 11:41 AM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Doug - SportAviation) 11. 12:03 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (leinad) 12. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Bryan Martin) 13. 01:08 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Doug - SportAviation) 14. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (afterfxllc@aol.com) 15. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Jay Maynard) 16. 03:02 PM - Re: tooling holes (djluscher) 17. 05:02 PM - SAIB (roger lambert) 18. 05:03 PM - Re: tooling holes (kmccune) 19. 05:53 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (leinad) 20. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Greg Cox) 21. 06:34 PM - wing mod (spitfire55) 22. 08:04 PM - Polishing a CH710 (JohnDRead@aol.com) 23. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Peter Chapman) 24. 08:58 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Paul Mulwitz) 25. 09:01 PM - Re: Polishing a CH710 () 26. 09:12 PM - Re: Polishing a CH710 () 27. 09:49 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (lwhitlow) 28. 09:54 PM - Re: Polishing a CH710 (Stanley A Challgren) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:38 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Chat Reminder Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT www.mykitairplane.com Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page. George ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: tooling holes From: "djluscher" Hi Group, I'm just starting to build CH750 from plans and am making form blocks for the rudder ribs. The plans only indicate the location for tooling holes on the nose rib. The others are unspecified and I was seeking some advice/assurance on using two or three 1/4" holes on the center line of each rib to hold blanks between the form blocks. On the narrow end of the ribs these holes will be within an inch of the flange. Is this OK? Any rules of thumb for drilling holes in small ribs? thanks in advance, DJ Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271693#271693 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:08 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac Series Checklist All- How can I access the " Zodiac Series Checklist " highlighted in the AMD PDF? You can't get there from here. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:28 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "lwhitlow" Questions For Discussion 1. The FAA is saying that the E-AB guys should use the AMD fixes How will we get these drawings and parts?/ I am not a customer of AMD I bought a kit from the boys in Mexico MO. Anybody on the list have any contact with the Zenith in Mexico MO?? I'm assuming they are doing the changes for AMD and are the ones really doing the drawings and making the parts?? 2. The AMD Letter refers to the EU/UK LAA mass balance weights drawings and I've read that. However, the LAA doc also calls for a carry through spar mod that AMD makes no mention of. SOOOOOO are we gonna have to do the carry through mod or not??? 3. The AMD docs say the plane should be placarded per the November 2009 bulletin. So how do the E-AB guys get that bulletin? What a mess. I think its poor planning and PR and engineering practice to point to a EU / UK LAA document that is not drawn and managed by the designer / manufacturer, and not at least discuss WHY you are NOT saying we should do everything in this document but only do part of it. Zenith /AMD may not feel the spar mod is needed but at least say that or SAY SOMETHING! To be mute on the issue is NOT ACCEPTABLE!! I'm ready, willing and able to do any mod to my nearly complete 601XL but I want words from Zenith as to their reasoning behind only implementing part of the LAA letter and not all of it Zenith NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!! Every day you waste not addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company. I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something Larry Whitlow 601XL Jabiru 3300 N69102 (reserved) I was about 90% done but now I apparently have more to do Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271707#271707 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac Series Checklist From: Carlos Sa Try this: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/Zodiac%20checklist%20-%20September%202009.pdf Carlos 2009/11/8 Bill Naumuk > All- > How can I access the " Zodiac Series Checklist " highlighted in the > AMD PDF? You can't get there from here. > > Bill Naumuk > Townville, Pa. > HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% > > ** > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:10 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac Series Checklist Very good. Thanks, Carlos. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlos Sa To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zodiac Series Checklist Try this: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/Zodiac%20checklist%20-%20Septembe r%202009.pdf Carlos 2009/11/8 Bill Naumuk All- How can I access the " Zodiac Series Checklist " highlighted in the AMD PDF? You can't get there from here. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:57 AM PST US From: "Doug - SportAviation" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zodiac Series Checklist attached From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Naumuk Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:06 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Zodiac Series Checklist All- How can I access the " Zodiac Series Checklist " highlighted in the AMD PDF? You can't get there from here. Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:24 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith-List: tooling holes Hi DJ, Tooling holes are generally found on the centerline, but just be careful that that hole doesn't interfere with points of attachment etc. Presuming the holes will be used to sandwich the rib between forms and center flanged holes. You only need one every foot or so. The vise you use to grip while hammering flanges will provide a better hold at small ends. Don't forget to add the 7-degree over bend angle. Larry McFarland 602HDS at www.macsmachine.com djluscher wrote: > > Hi Group, > I'm just starting to build CH750 from plans and am making form blocks for the rudder ribs. The plans only indicate the location for tooling holes on the nose rib. The others are unspecified and I was seeking some advice/assurance on using two or three 1/4" holes on the center line of each rib to hold blanks between the form blocks. On the narrow end of the ribs these holes will be within an inch of the flange. > > Is this OK? Any rules of thumb for drilling holes in small ribs? > thanks in advance, > DJ > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271693#271693 > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "leinad" Larry, I was thinking of the same questions. I'm a plans builder, and have never had any dealings with AMD. Why is the FAA acting as if AMD is the manufacturer? Why aren't the recommendations coming out of Zenith instead of AMD? My airframe is also almost complete. My hope is the Zenith (not AMD) puts out a design update soon that addresses all of the FAA's concerns, and that those changes are provided to us builders at no additional cost. Dan lwhitlow wrote: > Questions For Discussion > > 1. The FAA is saying that the E-AB guys should use the AMD fixes How will we get these drawings and parts?/ I am not a customer of AMD I bought a kit from the boys in Mexico MO. Anybody on the list have any contact with the Zenith in Mexico MO?? I'm assuming they are doing the changes for AMD and are the ones really doing the drawings and making the parts?? > > 2. The AMD Letter refers to the EU/UK LAA mass balance weights drawings and I've read that. However, the LAA doc also calls for a carry through spar mod that AMD makes no mention of. SOOOOOO are we gonna have to do the carry through mod or not??? > > 3. The AMD docs say the plane should be placarded per the November 2009 bulletin. So how do the E-AB guys get that bulletin? > > What a mess. I think its poor planning and PR and engineering practice to point to a EU / UK LAA document that is not drawn and managed by the designer / manufacturer, and not at least discuss WHY you are NOT saying we should do everything in this document but only do part of it. > > Zenith /AMD may not feel the spar mod is needed but at least say that or SAY SOMETHING! To be mute on the issue is NOT ACCEPTABLE!! > > I'm ready, willing and able to do any mod to my nearly complete 601XL but I want words from Zenith as to their reasoning behind only implementing part of the LAA letter and not all of it > > Zenith NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!! Every day you waste not addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company. > > I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something > > Larry Whitlow > 601XL Jabiru 3300 > N69102 (reserved) > I was about 90% done but now I apparently have more to do -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271718#271718 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:28 AM PST US From: "Doug - SportAviation" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 AMD is the manufacturer for the SLSA version. The SLSA is the only version which the FAA has any hold over; and even that is indirect. Owners of SLSA airplanes are required (by law) to pay attention to SA/Ds issued by their manufacturer. It's not a suggestion for us. For SLSAs, the issuance of a SA/D by their airplane's manufacturer is the same as an issuance of an AD by the FAA for a standard airplane. By hitch-hiking on the AMD Safety Alert/Directive, the FAA can push the Zodiac experimental community to pay attention - they can't force their attention; but if they could, they would. The FAA is couching E-AB and ELSA adherence to the AMD SA/D as an airworthiness issue which you ignore at your peril. They can't force you, but if you have an incident, and you have not made the changes, then (their reasoning is that) you knowingly operated your aircraft in a non-airworthy condition - which is against the FARs. I suspect that Zenith will publish the AMD pages as the design which Zenith customers should use. And, Zenith will probably make kits available for the retrofit. Best of luck, Doug Norman, CFI, AGI AMD Zodiac N601DN -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of leinad Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:15 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Larry, I was thinking of the same questions. I'm a plans builder, and have never had any dealings with AMD. Why is the FAA acting as if AMD is the manufacturer? Why aren't the recommendations coming out of Zenith instead of AMD? My airframe is also almost complete. My hope is the Zenith (not AMD) puts out a design update soon that addresses all of the FAA's concerns, and that those changes are provided to us builders at no additional cost. Dan lwhitlow wrote: > Questions For Discussion > > 1. The FAA is saying that the E-AB guys should use the AMD fixes How will we get these drawings and parts?/ I am not a customer of AMD I bought a kit from the boys in Mexico MO. Anybody on the list have any contact with the Zenith in Mexico MO?? I'm assuming they are doing the changes for AMD and are the ones really doing the drawings and making the parts?? > > 2. The AMD Letter refers to the EU/UK LAA mass balance weights drawings and I've read that. However, the LAA doc also calls for a carry through spar mod that AMD makes no mention of. SOOOOOO are we gonna have to do the carry through mod or not??? > > 3. The AMD docs say the plane should be placarded per the November 2009 bulletin. So how do the E-AB guys get that bulletin? > > What a mess. I think its poor planning and PR and engineering practice to point to a EU / UK LAA document that is not drawn and managed by the designer / manufacturer, and not at least discuss WHY you are NOT saying we should do everything in this document but only do part of it. > > Zenith /AMD may not feel the spar mod is needed but at least say that or SAY SOMETHING! To be mute on the issue is NOT ACCEPTABLE!! > > I'm ready, willing and able to do any mod to my nearly complete 601XL but I want words from Zenith as to their reasoning behind only implementing part of the LAA letter and not all of it > > Zenith NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP!!! Every day you waste not addressing these questions devalues my aircraft, your investment in the 601 / 650 program and the Zenith Aircraft company. > > I believe that no matter what problems may exists with the 601 /650 they are all fixable and we can have a safe respected airplane, but that requires the factory and designer to step up and say something > > Larry Whitlow > 601XL Jabiru 3300 > N69102 (reserved) > I was about 90% done but now I apparently have more to do -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271718#271718 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "leinad" Doug, You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at least some hold over us EAB guys. Dan Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat wrote: > AMD is the manufacturer for the SLSA version. The SLSA is the only version > which the FAA has any hold over; and even that is indirect. Owners of SLSA > airplanes are required (by law) to pay attention to SA/Ds issued by their > manufacturer. It's not a suggestion for us. For SLSAs, the issuance of a > SA/D by their airplane's manufacturer is the same as an issuance of an AD by > the FAA for a standard airplane. > > By hitch-hiking on the AMD Safety Alert/Directive, the FAA can push the > Zodiac experimental community to pay attention - they can't force their > attention; but if they could, they would. The FAA is couching E-AB and ELSA > adherence to the AMD SA/D as an airworthiness issue which you ignore at your > peril. They can't force you, but if you have an incident, and you have not > made the changes, then (their reasoning is that) you knowingly operated your > aircraft in a non-airworthy condition - which is against the FARs. > > I suspect that Zenith will publish the AMD pages as the design which Zenith > customers should use. And, Zenith will probably make kits available for the > retrofit. > > Best of luck, > Doug Norman, CFI, AGI > AMD Zodiac N601DN > > -- -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271724#271724 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:21 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Unless things have changed quite a bit since I got my inspection, the airworthiness inspection is primarily a paperwork inspection. My inspector looked over my plane in just a bit more detail than you would give to a typical pre-flight inspection, The primary points of the inspection were to make sure all the forms were properly filled out, the panel was properly marked, all the placards and markings were in place and make sure all the required documents were in the airplane. The inspector is not likely to get out your plans and go over them in detail to make sure you followed them correctly. On Nov 8, 2009, at 3:02 PM, leinad wrote: > > Doug, > You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I > haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant > an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at > least some hold over us EAB guys. > Dan > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:35 PM PST US From: "Doug - SportAviation" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 That's an excellent point. I don't know what a DAR would do given the current facts and circumstances. Doug -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of leinad Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:03 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Doug, You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at least some hold over us EAB guys. Dan Doug.Norman(at)sportaviat wrote: > AMD is the manufacturer for the SLSA version. The SLSA is the only version > which the FAA has any hold over; and even that is indirect. Owners of SLSA > airplanes are required (by law) to pay attention to SA/Ds issued by their > manufacturer. It's not a suggestion for us. For SLSAs, the issuance of a > SA/D by their airplane's manufacturer is the same as an issuance of an AD by > the FAA for a standard airplane. > > By hitch-hiking on the AMD Safety Alert/Directive, the FAA can push the > Zodiac experimental community to pay attention - they can't force their > attention; but if they could, they would. The FAA is couching E-AB and ELSA > adherence to the AMD SA/D as an airworthiness issue which you ignore at your > peril. They can't force you, but if you have an incident, and you have not > made the changes, then (their reasoning is that) you knowingly operated your > aircraft in a non-airworthy condition - which is against the FARs. > > I suspect that Zenith will publish the AMD pages as the design which Zenith > customers should use. And, Zenith will probably make kits available for the > retrofit. > > Best of luck, > Doug Norman, CFI, AGI > AMD Zodiac N601DN > > -- -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271724#271724 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: afterfxllc@aol.com I would bet every DAR will know of the FAA's decision and will not issue an airworthiness if the mods aren't done. I beleve they have to request permission from their field office to preform the inspection so a DAR tha t doesn't know of the mods is not going to happen. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Martin Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Unless things have changed quite a bit since I got my inspection, the airw orthiness inspection is primarily a paperwork inspection. My inspector loo ked over my plane in just a bit more detail than you would give to a typic al pre-flight inspection, The primary points of the inspection were to mak e sure all the forms were properly filled out, the panel was properly mark ed, all the placards and markings were in place and make sure all the requ ired documents were in the airplane. The inspector is not likely to get ou t your plans and go over them in detail to make sure you followed them cor rectly. On Nov 8, 2009, at 3:02 PM, leinad wrote: > > Doug, > You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I > ha ven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant > an airw orthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at > least some hold over us EAB guys. > Dan > --Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:32:40 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:15:29AM -0800, leinad wrote: > I was thinking of the same questions. I'm a plans builder, and have never > had any dealings with AMD. Why is the FAA acting as if AMD is the > manufacturer? Why aren't the recommendations coming out of Zenith instead > of AMD? My airframe is also almost complete. Because the FAA can't deal with Zenith for much of anything. The FAA *can* deal with AMD, as the manufacturer of the SLSA version (*not* Zenith). As far as the FAA is concerned, for the SLSA, AMD *is* the manufacturer. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: tooling holes From: "djluscher" Hi Larry, Thanks for the guidance. To be clear, many of the rudder ribs have flanges 2 degree open. Do you mean a 7-degree relief or bevel on the rib form is a good number to get a 92 degree flange or do you mean I should bevel form blocks 7-degrees closed beyond the desired flange angle (5 degrees total bevel in this case?) I see 10-deg net called out in the construction standards from Zenith, but am anxious to hear what angle has proven to work best in practice. thanks again, DJ larry(at)macsmachine.com wrote: > Hi DJ, > Tooling holes are generally found on the centerline, but just be careful > that that hole doesn't interfere with > points of attachment etc. Presuming the holes will be used to sandwich > the rib between forms and center flanged holes. > You only need one every foot or so. The vise you use to grip while > hammering flanges will provide a better hold at small ends. > Don't forget to add the 7-degree over bend angle. > > Larry McFarland 602HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > djluscher wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Group, > > I'm just starting to build CH750 from plans and am making form blocks for the rudder ribs. The plans only indicate the location for tooling holes on the nose rib. The others are unspecified and I was seeking some advice/assurance on using two or three 1/4" holes on the center line of each rib to hold blanks between the form blocks. On the narrow end of the ribs these holes will be within an inch of the flange. > > > > Is this OK? Any rules of thumb for drilling holes in small ribs? > > thanks in advance, > > DJ > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 71693#271693 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271737#271737 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: SAIB From: roger lambert A Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) is an information tool that alerts, educates, and makes recommendations to the aviation community. SAIBs contain non-regulatory information and guidance that does not meet the criteria for an Airworthiness Directive (AD). ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:09 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: tooling holes From: "kmccune" I don't think the location of the tooling holes are that critical in the rear rudder ribs as they are just a way to clamp the form around the rib blank. But then I'm I lovely down town Chicago, getting ready for a 10 day Fabtech trade show marathon.... :( so I don't have my prints handy, though they are 701 prints,they may have helped. Kevin -------- History is a great teacher if you take time to study it. Steve Bennett Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271746#271746 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "leinad" Bryan, I recall a thread on this some time ago. Inspections run the gamut from a cursory look over the plane and check of the paper work to all day long affairs where every detail that can be gotten to is scrutinized. I really don't know what to expect on inspection day. I just have to be as ready as I can be. I'm sure I'll make the required mods, I'm just not sure what they are or where the information will come from. I"m guessing that mass balance of the ailerons will be part of the change. Does this mean the flex hinges are out? Just another of many questions. Anyone interested should come to chat to talk about this tomorrow night. Dan bryanmmartin wrote: > Unless things have changed quite a bit since I got my inspection, the > airworthiness inspection is primarily a paperwork inspection. My > inspector looked over my plane in just a bit more detail than you > would give to a typical pre-flight inspection, The primary points of > the inspection were to make sure all the forms were properly filled > out, the panel was properly marked, all the placards and markings were > in place and make sure all the required documents were in the > airplane. The inspector is not likely to get out your plans and go > over them in detail to make sure you followed them correctly. > > On Nov 8, 2009, at 3:02 PM, leinad wrote: > > > > > > > > Doug, > > You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I > > haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant > > an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at > > least some hold over us EAB guys. > > Dan > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271752#271752 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "Greg Cox" Go to the ZAC website, all the mod info is on there. Greg Cox -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of leinad Sent: Monday, 9 November 2009 12:53 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Bryan, I recall a thread on this some time ago. Inspections run the gamut from a cursory look over the plane and check of the paper work to all day long affairs where every detail that can be gotten to is scrutinized. I really don't know what to expect on inspection day. I just have to be as ready as I can be. I'm sure I'll make the required mods, I'm just not sure what they are or where the information will come from. I"m guessing that mass balance of the ailerons will be part of the change. Does this mean the flex hinges are out? Just another of many questions. Anyone interested should come to chat to talk about this tomorrow night. Dan bryanmmartin wrote: > Unless things have changed quite a bit since I got my inspection, the > airworthiness inspection is primarily a paperwork inspection. My > inspector looked over my plane in just a bit more detail than you > would give to a typical pre-flight inspection, The primary points of > the inspection were to make sure all the forms were properly filled > out, the panel was properly marked, all the placards and markings were > in place and make sure all the required documents were in the > airplane. The inspector is not likely to get out your plans and go > over them in detail to make sure you followed them correctly. > > On Nov 8, 2009, at 3:02 PM, leinad wrote: > > > > > > > > Doug, > > You say the FAA has no hold over us Experimental builders, but as I > > haven't completed my build and the FAA has to inspect it and grant > > an airworthiness certificate for it, it seams like they do have at > > least some hold over us EAB guys. > > Dan > > > > > > > > > > -- > Bryan Martin > N61BM, CH 601 XL, > RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. > do not archive. -------- Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271752#271752 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:16 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: wing mod From: "spitfire55" The drawing for the new wing mod are now on Zenith's web site! Bill -------- William Studdy CH 250 Built,Flying,Sold Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271757#271757 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:11 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Zenith-List: Polishing a CH710 Hello List; I am considering polishing my CH701. Does anyone have a suggestion for materials and technique? John Read CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 Phone: 303-648-3261 Fax: 303-648-3262 Cell: 719-494-4567 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:50 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 At 21:33 08-11-09, you wrote: > >Go to the ZAC website, all the mod info is on there. There's a massive number of changes! As a brief initial summary: (Note I may be wrong somewhere as I'm doing this quickly and am not personally involved with an XL) SPARS (or at least, p1 of the Zenair Upgrade) - main spar top cap - L angle extrustion, for about half span (and some bolts in place of rivets) - doubler for the main spar web at the wing root (with a spacer) - rear spar doubler around the aileron pushrod cutout - doubler plate for rear spar channel inboard - rear spar top cap - L angle for full span CENTER SECTION (p2 of the Zenair Upgrade) - center spar top cap doubler - additional L doubler for center spar top cap - new heavier front wing uprights - 4 heavy L angle uprights on center spar to brace it - web doubler for spar at wing attach bolts (and shims) WINGS & FUSELAGE (p3 of the Zenair Upgrade) - new style support channel for aileron bell crank - L angles to reinforce the rib with bell crank (2 on top, 2 on bottom) - angles to brace the forward fuselage around the wing uprights (Z angle to the front, L angle to the aft) - gussets to brace the top of the wing uprights (front and aft) - longer angles around seat pan cutouts - new thicker rear wing attach plates - more rivets inboard between spar and wing skin Peter Chapman Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:47 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Hi Peter, Your list of changes only considers the drawings currently posted as AMD changes. There's a lot more to be done to meet Chris Heintz's requirements including aileron mass balance, control system sensitivity change, and I have no idea what else. If you read the 7 page Q&A you will see there are a bunch of changes in the "Package" not included in the 3 pages of drawings. Still, I am glad the whole thing is coming to a conclusion. I intend to install all the changes on my plane. Paul XL awaiting engineering changes. At 07:30 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: >There's a massive number of changes! > >As a brief initial summary: >(Note I may be wrong somewhere as I'm doing this quickly and am not >personally involved with an XL) > > >SPARS (or at least, p1 of the Zenair Upgrade) > >- main spar top cap - L angle extrustion, for about half span >(and some bolts in place of rivets) >- doubler for the main spar web at the wing root (with a spacer) > >- rear spar doubler around the aileron pushrod cutout >- doubler plate for rear spar channel inboard >- rear spar top cap - L angle for full span > > >CENTER SECTION (p2 of the Zenair Upgrade) >- center spar top cap doubler >- additional L doubler for center spar top cap > >- new heavier front wing uprights >- 4 heavy L angle uprights on center spar to brace it >- web doubler for spar at wing attach bolts (and shims) > > >WINGS & FUSELAGE (p3 of the Zenair Upgrade) >- new style support channel for aileron bell crank >- L angles to reinforce the rib with bell crank (2 on top, 2 on bottom) > >- angles to brace the forward fuselage around the wing uprights (Z >angle to the front, L angle to the aft) >- gussets to brace the top of the wing uprights (front and aft) > >- longer angles around seat pan cutouts > >- new thicker rear wing attach plates > >- more rivets inboard between spar and wing skin > > >Peter Chapman >Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:48 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polishing a CH710 John, Go to this address http://www.nuvitechemical.com/procedures_html.asp?ProcedureTitle=Metal%20Polishing%20Non-Clad%20Sheet%20Metal%20Procedures If your a member of EAA, they have a short video on their help for homebuilders. I'm using Nuvite on my HDS and so far am really happy with the looks. Jerry ch601 HDS ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:46 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polishing a CH710 John, There was also this thread on zenith.aero. http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/polishing-1 Hope this helps. Jerry ---- JohnDRead@aol.com wrote: > Hello List; > I am considering polishing my CH701. Does anyone have a > suggestion for materials and technique? > > John Read > CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 > > Phone: 303-648-3261 > Fax: 303-648-3262 > Cell: 719-494-4567 > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "lwhitlow" Here's the link to the mods http://www.zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html OK That was faster than I expected. I do have sympathy for what Chris said in his answer to Question 2 about non-disclosure per NTSB rules and he mentions they are being sued as reasons they have not spoken much on the matter. I was un-aware anyone had started legal action. OK so a few of my questions have been addressed well, but a few have gotten more cloudy I note the EXTENSIVE spar mods both in the wing and in the center section, and do wonder about how much weight is getting put in here?? The drawings are great but has this been done on an actual 601?? are there pictures yet?? I know this is hot off the presses but have they actually replaced these parts on a completed aircraft? And of course the hard to pin down "is it flutter or not issue?" OK so we beef it up to prevent it. Great! Chris addresses it in Question 8 that yes Weights are now going to be used. But unless I'm looking through it I see no drawings of the weights. I have the LAA drawings but I really would like it if a set would come from Zenith and the people who know the aircraft. Are we supposed to use the LAA drawings??? I wonder how long it will be before we can get the upgrade kits in hand?? I never did the final close on my wings so I'm pretty good there but some of the spar work is gonna be a pain in the butt on a mostly finished fuselage.. Small price to pay I suppose... Larry Whitlow 601XL Jabiru 3300 Sensenich Composite prop N69102 (Reserved) 90% done with the first build 0% done with the mods Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=271784#271784 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:08 PM PST US From: Stanley A Challgren Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Polishing a CH710 John: I used Nuvite for my previous 601 and am using it again on my 701. I recommend it highly. I will get a packet of information to you tomorrow. Stan On Nov 8, 2009, at 20:43 , JohnDRead@aol.com wrote: > Hello List; > I am considering polishing my CH701. Does anyone > have a suggestion for materials and technique? > > John Read > CH701 - Elbert CO - Jabiru 3300 > > Phone: 303-648-3261 > Fax: 303-648-3262 > Cell: 719-494-4567 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.