---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/11/09: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:09 AM - List Fund Raiser (Matt Dralle) 1. 02:07 AM - Reliable Kids Email.. (Taylor) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: Zenith liability (Rich Simmons) 3. 06:12 AM - Re: Zenith liability (purplemoon99@bellsouth.net) 4. 07:53 AM - Re: Re: Zenith liability (steve@cccparis.com) 5. 11:53 AM - Re: Zenith liability (Joe) 6. 12:54 PM - Re: Re: Zenith liability (Bryan Martin) 7. 04:06 PM - Re: Re: Zenith liability (purplemoon99@bellsouth.net) 8. 04:39 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Zenair_Mathieu) 9. 04:45 PM - Q&A from Zenair (Zenair_Mathieu) 10. 04:54 PM - Re: 601/650 Airframe Upgrades, Grove Gear (Rick Lindstrom) 11. 05:08 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Sabrina) 12. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Craig Payne) 13. 05:29 PM - Re: Re: Zenith liability (Bryan Martin) 14. 06:59 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Paul Mulwitz) 15. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Greg Cox) 16. 09:07 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Sabrina) 17. 09:10 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 09:23 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Craig Payne) 19. 09:42 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Sabrina) 20. 10:02 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Craig Payne) 21. 11:14 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (n801bh@netzero.com) 22. 11:22 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Greg Cox) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:28 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith-List: List Fund Raiser Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Matronics Email List Fund Raiser month. There are some very nice incentive gifts to choose from as well! Please make your Contribution today: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:39 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Reliable Kids Email.. From: "Taylor" There are many internet service providers, but for children special service providers are needed. While a child is working on net, parents are worried about what they are watching, is it ok or not all these worries are always in their minds. And at that time they need a special kind of service by which they can have command on their child internet activities. Dont worry now, just visit down to avail internet services for your children. Kidsemail.org (http://www.kidsemail.org/) helps you ensure that your child communicates with contacts approved by you. They offer these services at lowest possible costs. They offer free trial service for 30days, i.e. a month so that you may satisfied with services and decide to have it. So hurry up! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272289#272289 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:25 AM PST US From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith liability I would like to respond to the statement made by Mr. Bill. (For the kit builders!) I cant keep quiet! We need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and then (possibly) give some more. Bill, if I broke my arm in your yard stumbling over a twig claiming it was your fault, would your statement still hold true? This is the mentality that has run our medical fees into the ground in this great country we live in. Lawyers just love it! Everyone wants to blame someone else for their problems and then make some kind of gain from it. It appears that the argument can go on forever as to whether the design needs/needed to be modified or not. Mr. Hinze has answered on the side of caution from external pressures. We have watched it happen over the past 2 years. He believes in his design! He has done pletny to prove it. HOw many of his family are flying in his design. Look how many that are out there and don't have a problem! He and his family have been flying it for how long?? Now comes the claim, "Let's bleed them!" The problem lies with the old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". After all the sounding off over the past 2 years you can see who won! Now comes the entitlement process! You owe me because . . . We are a country of entitlement now and it is showing here on the list. Geese! I have been just as frustrated as any of you folks out there. I have prolonged my build partially for financial reasons (I wasn't born to a golden spoon!)and then to see what happens with modifications. I have an engine now and am looking forward to completing and flying MY aircraft. If you look at the parts needed, I can see no more than a few hundred dollars and then a few weeks of toil spreed out over a given period. I don't feel Zenith owes me anything more than sharing their wisodom on the upgrades. I will probably have most of my parts made before the talkers move on to something else to continue their fussing. In the work place things dont go right, you suck it up and keep on trucking! I imagine there is not a sole on this list that doesnt have what it takes to purchase said materials. We chose the kit route to beat cost overrun! Here is a fee that is attached to it! It wont be the last for our decision! Now, What did I Do on my airplane yesterday? I prepared my list for needed materials for the upgrade, marked an air box location on the firewall and then the cabin heat location. Before I went in the house, I placed one of the cylinders and a head on the motorcycle I am restoring, decided my feet were tired and then went into see my family. Man this country is great! O yea, I forgot! I slept well knowing there is a solution to the issues we have seen come to where we are. Knowing that in about a year I will take my first flight in a plane I built myself makes me a happy camper. Rich P.S I do feel for the folks with the certified versions. They, have an issue! Expensive one! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:24 AM PST US From: "purplemoon99@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith liability Rich, you are right on the mark......Joe N101HD=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net>=0ATo: zen ith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, November 11, 2009 8:30:38 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith liability=0A=0A=0AI would like to respond to the s tatement made by Mr. Bill.- (For the kit builders!)=0AI cant keep quiet! =0A=0AWe need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they =0A have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and the n =0A (possibly) give some more.=0ABill, if I broke my arm in your yar d stumbling over a twig claiming it was your fault, would your statement st ill hold true?=0A=0AThis is the mentality that has run our medical fees int o the ground in this great country we live in. Lawyers just love it! Everyo ne wants to blame someone else for their problems and then make some kind o f gain from it. It appears that the argument can go on forever as to whethe r the design needs/needed to be modified or not.=0A=0AMr. Hinze has answere d on the side of caution from external pressures. We have watched it happen over the past 2 years. He believes in his design! He has done pletny to- prove it. HOw many of his family are flying in his design. Look how many t hat are out there and don't have a problem! He and his family have been fly ing it for how long?? Now comes the claim, "Let's bleed them!"=0A=0AThe pro blem lies with the old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". After al l the sounding off over the past 2 years you can see who won!=0A=0ANow come s the entitlement process! You owe me because . . .- We are a country of entitlement now and it is showing here on the list. Geese!=0A=0AI have been just as frustrated as any of you folks out there. I have prolonged my buil d partially for financial reasons (I wasn't born to a golden spoon!)and the n to see what happens with modifications.=0A=0AI have an engine now and am looking forward to completing and flying MY aircraft.=0A=0AIf you look at t he parts needed, I can see no more than a few hundred dollars and then a fe w weeks of toil spreed out over a given period. I don't feel Zenith owes me anything more than sharing their wisodom on the upgrades. I will probably have most of my parts made before the talkers move on to something else to continue their fussing.=0A=0AIn the work place things dont go right, you su ck it up and keep on trucking! I- imagine there is not a sole on this lis t that doesnt have what it takes to purchase said materials.=0A=0AWe chose the kit route to beat cost overrun! Here is a fee that is attached to it! I t wont be the last for our decision!=0A=0ANow,=0AWhat did I Do on my airpla ne yesterday? I prepared my list for needed materials for the upgrade, mark ed an air box location on the firewall and then the cabin heat location.=0A Before I went in the house, I placed one of the cylinders and a head on the motorcycle I am restoring, decided my feet were tired and then went into s ee my family.=0A=0AMan this country is great!=0A=0AO yea, I forgot! I slept well knowing there is a solution to the issues we have seen come to where we are. Knowing that in about a year I will take my first flight in a plane I built myself makes me a happy camper.=0A=0ARich=0A=0AP.S=0AI do feel for the folks with the certified versions. They, have an issue! Expensive one! =============== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:31 AM PST US From: steve@cccparis.com Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith liability AMEN! THANKS Rich! > > Rich, you are right on the mark......Joe N101HD > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Rich Simmons <4RCSIMMONS@comcast.net> > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wed, November 11, 2009 8:30:38 AM > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith liability > > > I would like to respond to the statement made by Mr. Bill. (For the kit builders!) > I cant keep quiet! > > We need to see what they can afford. What level of insurance do they > have? They are at fault; they need to give until it hurts, and then > (possibly) give some more. > Bill, if I broke my arm in your yard stumbling over a twig claiming it was your fault, would your statement still hold true? > > This is the mentality that has run our medical fees into the ground in this great country we live in. Lawyers just love it! Everyone wants to blame someone else for their problems and then make some kind of gain from it. It appears that the argument can go on forever as to whether the design needs/needed to be modified or not. > > Mr. Hinze has answered on the side of caution from external pressures. We have watched it happen over the past 2 years. He believes in his design! He has done pletny to prove it. HOw many of his family are flying in his design. Look how many that are out there and don't have a problem! He and his family have been flying it for how long?? Now comes the claim, "Let's bleed them!" > > The problem lies with the old saying "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". After all the sounding off over the past 2 years you can see who won! > > Now comes the entitlement process! You owe me because . . . We are a country of entitlement now and it is showing here on the list. Geese! > > I have been just as frustrated as any of you folks out there. I have prolonged my build partially for financial reasons (I wasn't born to a golden spoon!)and then to see what happens with modifications. > > I have an engine now and am looking forward to completing and flying MY aircraft. > > If you look at the parts needed, I can see no more than a few hundred dollars and then a few weeks of toil spreed out over a given period. I don't feel Zenith owes me anything more than sharing their wisodom on the upgrades. I will probably have most of my parts made before the talkers move on to something else to continue their fussing. > > In the work place things dont go right, you suck it up and keep on trucking! I imagine there is not a sole on this list that doesnt have what it takes to purchase said materials. > > We chose the kit route to beat cost overrun! Here is a fee that is attached to it! It wont be the last for our decision! > > Now, > What did I Do on my airplane yesterday? I prepared my list for needed materials for the upgrade, marked an air box location on the firewall and then the cabin heat location. > Before I went in the house, I placed one of the cylinders and a head on the motorcycle I am restoring, decided my feet were tired and then went into see my family. > > Man this country is great! > > O yea, I forgot! I slept well knowing there is a solution to the issues we have seen come to where we are. Knowing that in about a year I will take my first flight in a plane I built myself makes me a happy camper. > > Rich > > P.S > I do feel for the folks with the certified versions. They, have an issue! Expensive one!=============== > ____________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:20 AM PST US From: "Joe" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith liability I have been going over these posts and would like to know if anyone knows what the probable cause of the recent accident was. I'm sorry of I missed it. Could the pilot, who I think it was posted that he was in his 70's, have had a serious medical condition that could have overstressed the plane? If that were the case, maybe we are getting way ahead of ourselves. I agree the accident may have caused the Heinz family to announce the new changes way ahead of their schedule. You can pull the wings off of ANY plane if the pilot is incapacitated first. If Zenith puts out the retrofit kit for free, they will be heroes in the aviation industry. I am happy with purchasing the retrofit kit at the manufacturer's cost. I would not be willing to buy it from Aircraft Spruce. I believe it will be impossible for the company to send the parts for free. As a builder and supporter of the company, I want them to stay in business and support the builders for as long as possible. Providing the kits for free may bankrupt the company. I'm just as angry about this as all of you. I don't see any malice on the part of the company. They have treated us well over the years and I believe they have earned our trust and we need to support them through these hard times. I'm not at the point yet where criticism of the company is called for. These repairs will hurt some people more than others and I can understand the frustrations on the part of pilots with finished airplanes. I also understand when this is over and done with; we will have the very best over engineered aircraft on the market. God bless the pilot and the family members of the recent accident. Joe ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:24 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith liability It will be months before we have any valid information about the accident. There's no point in speculating about it now as that speculation will be based on almost total ignorance. On Nov 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, Joe wrote: > > I have been going over these posts and would like to know if anyone > knows what the probable cause of the recent accident was. I'm sorry > of I missed it. Could the pilot, who I think it was posted that he > was in his 70's, have had a serious medical condition that could > have overstressed the plane? If that were the case, maybe we are > getting way ahead of ourselves. I agree the accident may have caused > the Heinz family to announce the new changes way ahead of their > schedule. You can pull the wings off of ANY plane if the pilot is > incapacitated first. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:35 PM PST US From: "purplemoon99@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith liability Bryan what is the latest accident,I've been off line for awhile,also do run a revmaster carb?---------- -JoeN101HD-- 601XL/R AM=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Bryan Martin =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, Novembe r 11, 2009 3:50:49 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith liability=0A t>=0A=0AIt will be months before we have any valid information about the ac cident. There's no point in speculating about it now as that speculation wi ll be based on almost total ignorance.=0A=0AOn Nov 11, 2009, at 12:42 PM, J ail.com>=0A> =0A> I have been going over these posts and would like to know if anyone knows what the probable cause of the recent accident was. I'm so rry of I missed it. Could the pilot, who I think it was posted that he was in his 70's, have had a serious medical condition that could have overstres sed the plane? If that were the case, maybe we are getting way ahead of our selves. I agree the accident may have caused the Heinz family to announce t he new changes way ahead of their schedule. You can pull the wings off of A NY plane if the pilot is incapacitated first.=0A> =0A=0A=0A=0A--Bryan Marti n=0AN61BM, CH 601 XL,=0ARAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.=0Ado not archive.=0A - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "Zenair_Mathieu" To all 601XL and 650 builders and aircraft owners. If you have a specific question regarding the upgrade, I have started a Q&A on the Zenith.aero site. Post your question there I will consult with Chris Heintz so that we can give you the best possible answer. Please be specific about your questions. Mathieu http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/qa-safety-alert-and-saib Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272373#272373 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:12 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Q&A from Zenair From: "Zenair_Mathieu" To all 601XL and 650 builders and aircraft owners. If you have a specific question regarding the upgrade, I have started a Q&A on the Zenith.aero site. Post your question there I will consult with Chris Heintz so that we can give you the best possible answer. Please be specific about your questions. Mathieu http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/qa-safety-alert-and-saib For details on the upgrade, please see: http://www.zenith.aero/profiles/blogs/installing-the-upgrade-package For news updates, please see: http://zenithair.com/news/ntsb-astm-4-09a.html Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272374#272374 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:56 PM PST US From: Rick Lindstrom Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601/650 Airframe Upgrades, Grove Gear Here's what I just posted to the 601 list, I thought it should be here, too. Hi, Gang! I just had a good conversation with Sebastien at Zenith, and got a bit more information that might be helpful when making decisions about the upcoming upgrades to the Zenith 601/650 series. First, Sebastien estimates that the full upgrade kit will run approximately $300, not including shipping. This represents Zenith's costs in materials alone, including hardware. Second, Zenith estimates that the net weight increase will average between 5 and 6 pounds, once the old fasteners are removed, new components are installed, and new fasteners are replaced. Third, they've already started a blog with photos and video on "how to" accomplish the upgrade. As you can imagine, this is an ongoing work in progress, so it's being updated on a periodic basis. And yes, you can post your comments to Zenith as well. Here'e the link: http://www.zenith.aero/profiles/blogs/installing-the-upgrade-package Personally speaking, 5 or 6 pounds is a lot less than I was imagining after looking at the drawings, so maybe there's a bit less pressure to install the lighter weight Grove gear. On the other hand, I can't think of a better time to do it and get 10 more pounds of useful load, so I'm going to keep looking into the logistics of a group buy. As has been posted previously here, the Grove gear lists for $1347, and gun drilled brake lines adds another $100 per gear leg. Robbie Grove said we could expect a 10 to 15 percent discount off of list if we got 10 or so buyers together. Don't forget that installing the Grove gear requires an adapter block to allow the narrower Grove gear to fit snugly in the existing gear channel, and this is manufactured by Zenair in Canada. I missed talking to them about cost and availability earlier today, but will follow up tomorrow. Frankly, I think this is all good news from Zenith, and they deserve a lot of credit for delivering an enhancement that really strengthens the airframe, and will give us enhanced peace of mind while flying. Kudos to Chris and sons for stepping up to the challenge, and keeping the cost down to a bare minimum. And before I forget, a big THANK YOU! to all of the veteran and current servicemen and women in our Zenith family! Without their sacrifices, we would not have the freedoms we take for granted today. Building and flying your own airplane would be nothing more than a fanciful dream... Rick Lindstrom Zenvair 601 N42KP ...and proud parent of a US Marine. -----Original Message----- >From: steve@cccparis.com >Sent: Nov 11, 2009 10:48 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith liability > > >AMEN! THANKS Rich! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "Sabrina" Dear Mathieu, My attorney just talked with the lead NTSB Investigator yesterday. They discussed the Q&A posted on your web page. In particular, Chris statement that he was bound to confidentiality... because the NTSB requires this... In fact there is a blanket exception for all safety of flight issues. My specific question: As to Zenith's timing in releasing the upgrade to the public, when were you first aware of this exception? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272382#272382 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:00 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 What a GREAT way to ensure open communication with ZAC . I take it your goal is to spend time in court instead of flying? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:08 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Dear Mathieu, My attorney just talked with the lead NTSB Investigator yesterday. They discussed the Q&A posted on your web page. In particular, Chris statement that he was bound to confidentiality... because the NTSB requires this... In fact there is a blanket exception for all safety of flight issues. My specific question: As to Zenith's timing in releasing the upgrade to the public, when were you first aware of this exception? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272382#272382 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:35 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Zenith liability http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 091107X34009&key=1 On Nov 11, 2009, at 6:32 PM, purplemoon99@bellsouth.net wrote: > Bryan what is the latest accident,I've been off line for awhile,also > do run a revmaster carb? JoeN101HD 601XL/RAM > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:39 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Hi Craig, My vote goes to give Sabrina a little room to maneuver here. She has already said she has no intention to sue anybody. Still, I know she is really upset about the fact that nobody found out about the upcoming massive upgrade until the fatal accident last week. Perhaps some warning would have kept some people she cares about on the ground . . . Let's see what the response to her question is before we throw any stones at anybody. Paul XL ready to order upgrade At 05:18 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote: >What a GREAT way to ensure open communication with ZAC . I >take it your goal is to spend time in court instead of flying? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:47 PM PST US Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "Greg Cox" Paul, Manoeuvre towards what? I agree with Craig, questions such a Sabrina's serve no purpose except to waste peoples time. If impending litigation is not the intension then don't ask the question, if litigation is the intension then this is not the place to ask such a question. If you and Sabrina are suggesting an announcement by ZAC to state that they were releasing an upgrade would in some way have encouraged those who were still flying to cease doing so, I think this is a stretch. ZAC did say they were reviewing the design. All persons operating these aircraft would have to by now be aware of the accidents, if they then decided to continue flying then they do so knowing the risk. Kind regards, Greg Cox Sydney, Australia -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Thursday, 12 November 2009 1:59 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Hi Craig, My vote goes to give Sabrina a little room to maneuver here. She has already said she has no intention to sue anybody. Still, I know she is really upset about the fact that nobody found out about the upcoming massive upgrade until the fatal accident last week. Perhaps some warning would have kept some people she cares about on the ground . . . Let's see what the response to her question is before we throw any stones at anybody. Paul XL ready to order upgrade At 05:18 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote: >What a GREAT way to ensure open communication with ZAC . I >take it your goal is to spend time in court instead of flying? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:37 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "Sabrina" Greg, The question has a valid purpose. I am sorry if you feel I wasted your time. If they are not going to listen to their legal counsel's advice as indicated in the 11/7 Q&A , then I figured they might answer the question. If they listen to their lawyer, they will ignore my question. The question will determine which they are doing. If they are listening to their lawyers, then I don't think I will upgrade yet. Lawyers have a tendency to cause aircraft manuals and weights to expand. I speak from experience100 pages and 860 pounds. Just look at a Cessna 150 owners manual before and after the series of lawsuits in the late 1970s. I did not ask for CH to fix an airplane that he considers sound. I was not informed of any proposed main spar mods when I visited Mexico this summer. What about all those guys in England. They just incorporated the LAA mods and now they might have to tear their airplanes apart again in 2010 if the LAA revisits the issue. I would like, from Zenith, a set of V speeds, G forces and gross weights the airplane, as originally designed, can handle in light of all the information currently available to Zenith. I would not have flown in the factory demo nor the AMD this summer if I knew the main spar was being upgraded. My airplane will not be upgraded or flown until more is known. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272403#272403 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:34 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Hi Greg, Thanks for the comment. I agree with you and I think we all agree that litigation is not a path that gains anything for anybody except the lawyers. On the other hand, there are other things at stake here besides money. When Chris announced he recommended a reduction in cruise speed and gross weight around the time of Oshkosh, I took that to mean he acknowledged a real need for engineering changes on the XL. Perhaps I was the only one in the world who took it that way. His position then and now also included the notion that there was nothing wrong with the design. Some people would like to know when the big guys (Chris, FAA, NTSB, etc.) decided to go ahead with development of detailed design of extensive nature for this plane. Even I was surprised at the extent of the changes to the wing spars and spar carry-through that were published Saturday. I expected a competent engineering effort to "Fix" the aileron mass balance and control sensitivity questions. We already have seen one pretty good design for the aileron change from the LAA folks, and I heard somewhere that the sensitivity problem would be fixed with a couple of springs or some such change. What seems to have taken place is that the FAA folks along with Chris and AMD decided to do extensive changes to the spar structure but they didn't really want to tell the world about that effort. It took another in-flight break-up to get the announcement made. I don't think anybody is naive enough to miss the fact that the accident happened on Friday and the announcement came on Saturday. I think Sabrina is interested in digging into this particular aspect of the whole mess. I am not quite as curious as she is, but I also would like to get some idea of how the thought process and decision process took place. This is not about litigation. It is about getting a better understanding of what sort of people we are dealing with. I think litigation would be a waste of time and money in this case. There are no deep pockets for the lawyers to dip their greasy fingers into. The only real outcome of extensive litigation would be the demise of the Heintz family businesses, and I don't think any of us really wants that outcome. It would hurt us all. Indeed I don't think there is any real liability from a common sense point of view. I believe everyone in this story had at least reasonable if not noble intentions. Many of us are angry for a lot of different but very good reasons. Sabrina's point of view is about why people were allowed to happily go along believing this whole mess was just about pilot errors and maintenance problems. She believed that line and feels betrayed. Other people are angry because of the personal financial impacts. I am just annoyed by all the personal attacks I had to endure to reach the outcome I wanted. 'nuff said . . . Paul XL ready to order upgrades. At 08:18 PM 11/11/2009, you wrote: >Paul, >Manoeuvre towards what? >I agree with Craig, questions such a Sabrina's serve no purpose except >to waste peoples time. If impending litigation is not the intension then >don't ask the question, if litigation is the intension then this is not >the place to ask such a question. >If you and Sabrina are suggesting an announcement by ZAC to state that >they were releasing an upgrade would in some way have encouraged those >who were still flying to cease doing so, I think this is a stretch. ZAC >did say they were reviewing the design. All persons operating these >aircraft would have to by now be aware of the accidents, if they then >decided to continue flying then they do so knowing the risk. > >Kind regards, > > >Greg Cox >Sydney, Australia ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:36 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Funny how the guys who know the most (AMD and Zenith in the USA, Canada, Europe) continue to fly in these terribly flawed aircraft. If you won't fly planes from companies that listen to their lawyers then which company will you select? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:07 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Greg, The question has a valid purpose. I am sorry if you feel I wasted your time. If they are not going to listen to their legal counsel's advice as indicated in the 11/7 Q&A , then I figured they might answer the question. If they listen to their lawyer, they will ignore my question. The question will determine which they are doing. If they are listening to their lawyers, then I don't think I will upgrade yet. Lawyers have a tendency to cause aircraft manuals and weights to expand. I speak from experience100 pages and 860 pounds. Just look at a Cessna 150 owners manual before and after the series of lawsuits in the late 1970s. I did not ask for CH to fix an airplane that he considers sound. I was not informed of any proposed main spar mods when I visited Mexico this summer. What about all those guys in England. They just incorporated the LAA mods and now they might have to tear their airplanes apart again in 2010 if the LAA revisits the issue. I would like, from Zenith, a set of V speeds, G forces and gross weights the airplane, as originally designed, can handle in light of all the information currently available to Zenith. I would not have flown in the factory demo nor the AMD this summer if I knew the main spar was being upgraded. My airplane will not be upgraded or flown until more is known. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272403#272403 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 From: "Sabrina" Craig, If the upgrade is lawyer driven, then we deserve better. I would still like to see the new "numbers" for the original design. Once all the smoke clears, I am hoping for a "light" version of the upgrade with a de-rated airframe. That is the maneuvering Paul speaks of. I love my lawyers! :O) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272409#272409 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:26 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 I'm confused by what you want. You don't want to fly in a plane without some sort of upgrade. But you don't want the proposed upgrade. Since "light" is in quotes I'm assuming you aren't worried about projected weight (reported at 5-6 pounds by Sebastian via Rick Lindstrom). How will you know how much is enough? Anyway I don't think there will be another supported and tested solution. Chris's Q&A seems clear to me. He wants to stop the damage to his companies, family and customers by attacking all points at once. If you want the "lightest" solution then there is the original design (although you may have trouble getting insurance). If you know what solution you want then you can do it yourself but I don't see it being blessed or tested by Zenith. The last thing they want is multiple solutions and more FUD. For myself I have already trusted my life to Chris's designs and will continue to do so. -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 10:42 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Craig, If the upgrade is lawyer driven, then we deserve better. I would still like to see the new "numbers" for the original design. Once all the smoke clears, I am hoping for a "light" version of the upgrade with a de-rated airframe. That is the maneuvering Paul speaks of. I love my lawyers! :O) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272409#272409 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:46 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 As the designer, engineer, builder and the one who got tons of credit fo r bringing the Sabrina 1 to an actual flying machine it is you who are r esponsible for calculating the correct set of V speeds, G forces and gr oss weights for your unique Sabrina 1. The numbers you are looking for t hat Zenith used when you bought your kit should still be right there in the builder manual you read while building your Sabrina 1. If they did n ot satisfy you then maybe you should not have attemped this avenue of re creation..... This advise has been brought to you by the world renowned law firm of,,, DEWEY, CHEATUM & HOWE. you know,,, the "honest guys" do not archive. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Sabrina" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Greg, The question has a valid purpose. I am sorry if you feel I wasted your time. If they are not going to listen to their legal counsel's advice as indicated in the 11/7 Q&A , then I figured they might answer the ques tion. If they listen to their lawyer, they will ignore my question. T he question will determine which they are doing. If they are listening to their lawyers, then I don't think I will upgrade yet. Lawyers have a tendency to cause aircraft manuals and weights to expand. I speak fr om experience=94100 pages and 860 pounds. Just look at a Cessna 1 50 owners manual before and after the series of lawsuits in the late 197 0s. I did not ask for CH to fix an airplane that he considers sound. I was not informed of any proposed main spar mods when I visited Mexico this summer. What about all those guys in England. They just incorporated the LAA mo ds and now they might have to tear their airplanes apart again in 2010 i f the LAA revisits the issue. I would like, from Zenith, a set of V speeds, G forces and gross weights the airplane, as originally designed, can handle in light of all the in formation currently available to Zenith. I would not have flown in the factory demo nor the AMD this summer if I knew the main spar was being upgraded. My airplane will not be upgraded or flown until more is known. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272403#272403 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Regis University MBA Earn your MBA from Regis University, 100% online. Free info packs! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/c?cp=sEED0hh5faa4ADDMYWdyo QAAJ1HwQ8b1VOas4hI8eG3vvLZKAAQAAAAFAAAAAKRwnT4AAAMlAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAiHk AAAAAA ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:07 PM PST US From: "Greg Cox" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Sabrina, If you don't agree with CH's upgrade, then design and carry out your own upgrade then spend your money testing your design. If yours is an improvement on CH's then you should be able to market it and sell it to other builders without any problems. Regards, Greg Cox Zenith Zodiac CH650 Sydney, Australia -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Thursday, 12 November 2009 4:42 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 Craig, If the upgrade is lawyer driven, then we deserve better. I would still like to see the new "numbers" for the original design. Once all the smoke clears, I am hoping for a "light" version of the upgrade with a de-rated airframe. That is the maneuvering Paul speaks of. I love my lawyers! :O) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272409#272409 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.