Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:23 AM - Some Very Nice Comments... (Matt Dralle)
1. 04:50 AM - What doesn't kill you .... (Jake Reyna)
2. 05:11 AM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Sabrina)
3. 06:30 AM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (n801bh@netzero.com)
4. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Jim Belcher)
5. 10:42 AM - Traveling (Joe)
6. 10:55 AM - Re: Traveling (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 12:10 PM - Re: Traveling (Dan Lykowski)
8. 02:29 PM - Re: What doesn't kill you .... (vayuwings)
9. 06:00 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (leinad)
10. 06:29 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 ()
11. 07:22 PM - Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Sabrina)
12. 07:34 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Paul Mulwitz)
13. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Paul Mulwitz)
14. 08:04 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 ()
15. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
16. 09:24 PM - musings about zenith lawsuit, corvair (Gary Thomas)
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| Subject: | Some Very Nice Comments... |
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Matronics Email List Administrator
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| Subject: | What doesn't kill you .... |
It is unfortunate that another Zodiac Pilot has died and in a very twisted morbid
way, has set the last nail in the coffin. My views haven't changed, but reading
some of the conversations with Mathieu, I realise it is time to move on,
deal with the issue and have the fleet flying in 2010.
For those of you looking for retribution, expecting ZAC to provide the upgrade
parts at no cost, grow up!, take some personal responsibility. I sometimes forget
we live in America, the land of entitlement and lawyers.
What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Like the Phoenix, XL/650's will rise
again and rightly reclaim it's place as one of the best aircraft in it's category.
Obtw, Winter is quickly approaching and you no longer need to look for that project
to pass the time.
Jake
I be drillin out some rivets.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
The FAA made it clear yesterday. They want these upgrades included in every 601XL
winged aircraft. Their use of the word "consistent" allows some reasonable
substitutions. CH is clearly not enthusiastic about the modifications, the FAA
is. That is good enough for me. However, I am not about to conduct any
upgrade until numerous test flights of a large assortment of XL winged aircraft
are conducted.
My question was legitimate. If a main spar modification was on the drawing board
back in 2005, I would really be upset--as should you. If they were drawn
up in 2009, OK, let's move on. I am just curious.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272668#272668
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
I agree 1000%.. I am telling ya.. This builder has their head screwed on
straight for sure.. Even if she is a "girl".... <GG>
do not archive
and as always tailwinds on every flight.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650
The FAA made it clear yesterday. They want these upgrades included in ev
ery 601XL winged aircraft. Their use of the word "consistent" allows so
me reasonable substitutions. CH is clearly not enthusiastic about the m
odifications, the FAA is. That is good enough for me. However, I am
not about to conduct any upgrade until numerous test flights of a large
assortment of XL winged aircraft are conducted.
My question was legitimate. If a main spar modification was on the dra
wing board back in 2005, I would really be upset--as should you. If th
ey were drawn up in 2009, OK, let's move on. I am just curious.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272668#272668
========================
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
I'm glad to hear you haven't given up on it.
On Thursday 12 November 2009 19:10, Sabrina wrote:
>
> I must admit that the Zenith upgrade videos on their factory demo are good.
>
> I can't wait to see the center spar ones.
>
> I would really like to see the spar cap change out in person, esp. if
> anyone is solid riveting the new spar cap.
>
> I am driving from Chicago to Miami the weekend before Christmas and back
> the weekend after Christmas. If anyone, by that time, has their upgrade
> kit in hand and aircraft apart along the route, I would love to be a second
> pair of hands for a few hours.
>
> I don't have enough free time to do anything on my airplane until Spring
> Break. By that time we should have a couple dozen flying and proving the
> new design.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272535#272535
>
>
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
Message 5
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My girlfriend and I are traveling to Seattle from Nov 15-20 to visit an old
flying buddy. Is there anyone building a 601 / 650 in Seattle, ore anyone
who has a completed plane available for a visit? I would love to see someone
elses project and talk a little Zenith! Please contact me off line at
backstagelive@gmail.com.
Joe in Oshkosh
Do not Archive
Message 6
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Hi Joe,
I have a somewhat completed CH601XL near Portland, OR. That is a few
hours drive from Seattle, but you might be passing by this way anyway . . .
Of course it is not flying, but it is complete with engine and
instrument panel. I have the wings off and will not put them back on
until the upgrade is installed.
Paul
Camas, WA
The plane is located at Grove field (1W1)
At 10:39 AM 11/13/2009, you wrote:
>My girlfriend and I are traveling to Seattle from Nov 15-20 to visit
>an old flying buddy. Is there anyone building a 601 / 650 in
>Seattle, ore anyone who has a completed plane available for a visit?
>I would love to see someone elses project and talk a little Zenith!
>Please contact me off line at backstagelive@gmail.com.
>
>Joe in Oshkosh
>
>Do not Archive
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Hi Joe,
I live just north of Seattle and would be happy to show you around my 601 project.
Dan Lykowski
Dynon Avionics
________________________________
From: Joe <backstagelive@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 10:39:42 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Traveling
My girlfriend and I are traveling to Seattle from Nov 15-20 to visit an old flying
buddy. Is there anyone building a 601 / 650 in Seattle, ore anyone who has
a completed plane available for a visit? I would love to see someone elses project
and talk a little Zenith! Please contact me off line at backstagelive@gmail.com.
Joe in Oshkosh
Do not Archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: What doesn't kill you .... |
Until the upgrade kit is available I guess I have a moment to reply on this forum
and suggest maybe a little patience is needed here.
I would like to suggest to the above poster to slowly curl his pointed finger back
toward his palm and allow others to be the judge of their own level of maturity
and self-responsibility - a little space is needed for some who are analyzing
and questioning this Fed-induced requirement for their aircraft - with No
proven cause of anything except poor pilot, maintainance or building issues.
Hundreds of flying Zodiacs with thousands of hours proves that. It reminds me
of the lame laptop excuse the two NW pilots used for sleeping for over an hour-
100%, not 97 or 93, but 100% oblivious to anything in this universe - now these
same Feds, who mysteriously seem to believe the pilots, want to have new
regulations about laptop use, not fatigue. OMG.
And, tho you and I may live in America, many on this list do not, and for them
considering shipping, customs, and who knows what else (I surely don't, I live
in the States), etc. this could prove to be a much bigger inconvenience for them
than it is for us.
Also living in the desert SW I look forward to fall/winter, my flying seasons,
and never have needed (until now) a project other than, should we fly to the Grand
Canyon and camp and hike, or fly down to Baja this year?
Here's hoping the Zodiac will 'rise again' - but history shows much effort and
time is always needed for these things.
Dave
XL 71EK
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272735#272735
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
EAA posted the following on their web sight:
For the first time in history, the FAA has suspended issuance of any new airworthiness
certificates for an entire fleet of special light-sport aircraft (S-LSA)
- the Zodiac CH601XL and CH650 - and the FAA will not issue airworthiness certificates
to experimental light-sport aircraft (E-LSA) and amateur built versions
of CH601XL and CH650 aircraft until modified in a manner consistent with
the manufacturers safety alert is performed.
Does any know what "until modified in a manner consistent with the manufacturers
safety alert is performed" means. The first thing you read when look at the
AMD safety alert is that all work must be done by a certified air craft mechanic.
That does sit well when you're building your own plane from scratch.
Dan
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272751#272751
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
If you are the builder then you can do all the work yourself. The AMD's however
are built by the factory, assembled and delivered so you have to have a LSA mechanics
rating or a A&P.
David M.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of leinad
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650
EAA posted the following on their web sight:
For the first time in history, the FAA has suspended issuance of any new airworthiness
certificates for an entire fleet of special light-sport aircraft (S-LSA)
- the Zodiac CH601XL and CH650 - and the FAA will not issue airworthiness certificates
to experimental light-sport aircraft (E-LSA) and amateur built versions
of CH601XL and CH650 aircraft until modified in a manner consistent with
the manufacturers safety alert is performed.
Does any know what "until modified in a manner consistent with the manufacturers
safety alert is performed" means. The first thing you read when look at the
AMD safety alert is that all work must be done by a certified air craft mechanic.
That does sit well when you're building your own plane from scratch.
Dan
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272751#272751
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
Dan,
You raise a good point.
The "must be pre-approved by" part of the SA would bother me more than the "performed
by an FAA Certified..." part.
I was told in 2008 that once certified as airworthy, I could not "repair" my aircraft
until I turned 18 since it was an E-LSA.
Part 43.1 excludes experimental aircraft under (b) but then includes LSAs under
(d). It does away with most of the record keeping for E-LSAs, but seems to
require a repairman/inspection certificate that is only available to those 18
and older. So far, all maintenance, repairs and inspections have been done by
my IA.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=272760#272760
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
HI Dan,
The AMD planes are S-LSA. They require a
licensed mechanic to do just about anything -
just like a type certificated plane. That
wouldn't apply to any form of experimental plane
- either E-LSA or E-AB. This has nothing to do
with this particular change - just the way it is
for planes like that. I'm sure the change
package issued by ZAC (when they finish it) will
not call for a licensed mechanic to do the changes.
I don't know, but I guess the "Consistent"
business is up to the DAR. I suspect
experimental planes will still have lee-way to do
things differently from the documented
procedure. For example, you might decide to use
hard rivets instead of bolts on your additional
spar cap. I suspect any DAR would be happy with
that (assuming the work quality is OK). Deciding
not to add the new spar cap would probably not be consistent.
Paul
XL ready to order update kit
At 05:59 PM 11/13/2009, you wrote:
>For the first time in history, the FAA has
>suspended issuance of any new airworthiness
>certificates for an entire fleet of special
>light-sport aircraft (S-LSA) - the Zodiac
>CH601XL and CH650 - and the FAA will not issue
>airworthiness certificates to experimental
>light-sport aircraft (E-LSA) and amateur built
>versions of CH601XL and CH650 aircraft until
>modified in a manner consistent with the
>manufacturers safety alert is performed.
>
>Does any know what "until modified in a manner
>consistent with the manufacturers safety
>alert is performed" means. The first thing you
>read when look at the AMD safety alert is that
>all work must be done by a certified air craft
>mechanic. That does sit well when you're building your own plane from scratch.
>
>Dan
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
Hi Sabrina,
You are probably better informed than me on this point, but I thought
anybody could work on experimental planes. The license and repairman
certificate stuff is all about signing off condition inspections
rather than performing repairs and maintenance.
Paul
At 07:21 PM 11/13/2009, you wrote:
>I was told in 2008 that once certified as airworthy, I could not
>"repair" my aircraft until I turned 18 since it was an E-LSA.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
You are correct Paul. You must hold the repairman's certificate for the
experimental you purchased to do the annual condition inspection. All other
maintenance can be done by the owner. However the E_LSA is not the same as a
E_AB. All LSA aircraft regardless of the S or E you must have a LSA
repairman's certificate or a A&P. However the owner or anyone else may work
on any aircraft in the USA whether they build it or not, fixed wing or
helicopter if the work is supervised and appropriately signed off in
aircraft historicals by the supervising A&P or A or P or IA. Now that means
that Sabrina can do her own work as long as a A or A&P or IA is willing to
sign off the entry for the work Sabrina did. That is how some A&Ps get there
work experience to take the test for the A&P. In the regs it allows this and
by the way. The regs also say that supervision is not the person standing
over you while you do it. The supervising person must be able to be reached,
even by phone, during the work. The supervising person however must visually
inspect all work done before it is covered up and a final inspection before
returning the aircraft to service or test flight.
David M.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650
Hi Sabrina,
You are probably better informed than me on this point, but I thought
anybody could work on experimental planes. The license and repairman
certificate stuff is all about signing off condition inspections
rather than performing repairs and maintenance.
Paul
At 07:21 PM 11/13/2009, you wrote:
>I was told in 2008 that once certified as airworthy, I could not
>"repair" my aircraft until I turned 18 since it was an E-LSA.
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| Subject: | Re: FAA grounds 601 and 650 |
Ok I have figured out how to fix my 601 and it only took a few hours......
And I applied full right rudder to keep it flying straight. Now if I lose a
wing I can pinwheel to earth.
last step is to apply caster wheels to the main gear.
I plan on starting the mods tomorrow and will video it if all goes as
planned.
Jeff
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| Subject: | musings about zenith lawsuit, corvair |
While digging around, I think I found the lawsuit that Zenith referred to:
www.modbee.com/local/story/901152.html
It's the 2006 crash out in California of a 601 that was bought from the bui
lder. -Apparently there would have been some resolution by Nov4th, but I
didn't see any follow up.
Zenith said the plane had been altered and improperly used. -I don't reca
ll the story but thought that this was the one that went into bad weather.
-Anyone remember?
Anyway, I must say that I hate all the talk about lawyers and lawsuits. -
I also hate the media repetition about the NTSB view about "design flaws th
at cause the wings to flutter and break". -I don't recall the NTSB ever d
efinitively concluding this from any other their crash investigations at th
e time and now it appears that their hasty viewpoint has been proven wrong.
-We must remember that the Heintz sons fly the airplane.
Anyway, with all that, the number of crashes is sobering. -Even if bad bu
ilding, bad maintenance and bad flying were the causes (that's my belief),
I wonder why our planes appear to be more susceptible to this than other pl
anes. -I have been telling myself that the planes are strong enough, but
perhaps they don't have an extra margin to protect them against these sins.
-It's my belief that the proposed changes will provide this margin.
Reading between the lines of Chris Heintz' statement, he does not believe t
his is necessary from an engineering standpoint, but that it is necessary i
n order to quell the uncertainty. -Maybe that's why every item has been c
overed from the aileron rod all the way back to the seat that stitches the
wing into the fuselage. -I plan to make every single change recommends an
d I hope that others do too. -That way we all get back to flying and over
time see no more of these accidents until this all becomes a distant memor
y.
Let's all get back to getting on with each other again.
As an aside, I had the pleasure of spending this last weekend at one of Wil
liam Wynne's corvair colleges in South Carolina. -The technical expertise
is matched by the enthusiasm and good company. -I am an evangelist for t
his engine and recommend these colleges for anyone thinking about using one
in their airplane. -The highlight for me is catching the roar and the sm
ell of burnt fuel as I stand behind a engine that is being freshly run in.
-I even got nostalgic after catching the smell of a particularly grimy co
re engine that was in the process of being torn down before being cleaned a
nd rebuilt.
Gary-
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