Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:12 AM - What Are You Thankful For...? (Matt Dralle)
1. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Matco brake installation (burbby)
2. 08:32 AM - $352 part II (Sabrina)
3. 08:59 AM - Re: $352 part II (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 09:19 AM - Re: $352 part II (Sabrina)
5. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Wade Jones)
6. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
7. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (zman601xl@aol.com)
8. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
9. 12:57 PM - Re: $352 part II (Sabrina)
10. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
11. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
12. 01:52 PM - Re: $352 part II (Sabrina)
13. 02:02 PM - Re: $352 part II (Jim Belcher)
14. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Jim Belcher)
15. 02:24 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (Paul Mulwitz)
16. 02:59 PM - Fw: Recommendation from james (Wade Jones)
17. 04:19 PM - Re: Re: $352 part II (n801bh@netzero.com)
18. 05:22 PM - Re: $352 part II (Sabrina)
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| Subject: | What Are You Thankful For...? |
Dear Listers,
Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many
of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous
feasts of plenty and giving thanks for many blessings that have been bestowed
upon us.
Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are
for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the
assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists.
One of my favorite comments is when someone writes to me and says something like,
"Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!".
That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists.
Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning
to check my List email!!
Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for
their continued operation and upgrade?
The List Contribution Site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you in advance for your kind consideration,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Matco brake installation |
I'm not sure what your looking for but try this address:
http://matco.veracart.com/pdf/mastercylinder21a.pdf
--- On Mon, 11/23/09, mosquito56 <mosquito-56@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> From: mosquito56 <mosquito-56@HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Matco brake installation
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 6:36 PM
> "mosquito56" <mosquito-56@hotmail.com>
>
> I am trying to find a diagram of how to connect a Mc5
> master with a mc-4 slave. The slave has two holes but the
> master only has one.
> Can someone expain or show picture of correct
> connections?
> I assume that top of slave goes to resevoir and
> bottom goes to T on master then to the brake.
> Help
>
> --------
> Don Merritt- Laredo, Tx
> Apologies if I seem antagonistic.
> I believe in the freeflowing ideas and discussions
> between individuals for assistance in this thing we call
> life.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274476#274476
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser. Click on
> out more about
> Gifts provided
> www.aeroelectric.com
> www.buildersbooks.com
> www.homebuilthelp.com
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> Email Forum -
> FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
>
>
>
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Ordering the upgrade package requires that the owner execute a new waiver of liability
as to the design. This is important for those of us who ordered the kit
BEFORE the first structural failure. We are now aware of design issues and
are executing a new waiver that includes a waiver of our and our family's rights.
>From what I understand, this requirement of a new waiver is NOT in the spirit
of cooperation Zenith pledged to the FAA and the NTSB. If anything, it discourages
compliance with the SAIB.
Of all the ADs I have received on my C150L, I don't remember any manufacture requiring
me to waive liability BEFORE they would ship the required replacement
part. A recent example would be the new Cessna rudder stops, others include
new Slick parts, Bendix ignition switch, and seat rails.
Comments?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274948#274948
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
Hi Sabrina,
I think your legal team is much better than mine (mine is mostly mad
at me - just like much of the rest of the world). That said, I am
aware of a general legal principle that might be interesting
here. It is: You can't sign away your legal rights.
Even if you could commit yourself to not claiming some kind of
liability on Zenith's part for any design flaws, you can't commit
your heirs to anything.
I guess my point is that if Zenith and/or AMD want us to sign a
generally worthless agreement then why bother arguing about it? I
don't have any plans to claim that Zenith has any legal
responsibility for my behavior and the possible negative outcomes
that come from my choices. If they are merely making sure I
understand there is a possible danger in flying my plane with the new
upgraded design (just as there was before the upgrade) then that is OK by me.
Another view of this is that the meaningless agreement might indeed
stop some greedy customer or heir from starting proceedings to fill
their pockets from Zenith's misfortune. To that end I say: Bravo!
Paul
XL upgrade on order.
At 08:31 AM 11/26/2009, you wrote:
>Ordering the upgrade package requires that the owner execute a new
>waiver of liability as to the design. This is important for those
>of us who ordered the kit BEFORE the first structural failure. We
>are now aware of design issues and are executing a new waiver that
>includes a waiver of our and our family's rights.
>
> >From what I understand, this requirement of a new waiver is NOT in
> the spirit of cooperation Zenith pledged to the FAA and the
> NTSB. If anything, it discourages compliance with the SAIB.
>
>Of all the ADs I have received on my C150L, I don't remember any
>manufacture requiring me to waive liability BEFORE they would ship
>the required replacement part. A recent example would be the new
>Cessna rudder stops, others include new Slick parts, Bendix ignition
>switch, and seat rails.
>
>Comments?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
The waiver link was not active when my parents ordered the upgrade. They have
written to Zenith indicating they have not and do not waive liability. Zenith's
order page is running smoothly now, with the waiver link working. It says
that by clicking the link and accepting the upgrade you are signing your wife's
name as well as yours to the waiver.
The waiver is broader than the one I signed at age 12.
I hope, in the near future, they agree to sell all of us the upgrade without the
additional waiver. My order is still pending, without the new waiver.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274957#274957
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
I think Zenith should send out revisions to the drawings for the upgrade to
all plans holders .The upgrade can't be more than some angle and a small
amount of Aluminum.As a plans builder all I need are the drawings . Wade
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: $352 part II
>
> The ?owaiver? link was not active when my parents ordered the upgrade.
> They have written to Zenith indicating they have not and do not waive
> liability. Zenith's order page is running smoothly now, with the waiver
> link working. It says that by clicking the link and accepting the upgrade
> you are signing your wife's name as well as yours to the waiver.
>
> The waiver is broader than the one I signed at age 12.
>
> I hope, in the near future, they agree to sell all of us the upgrade
> without the additional waiver. My order is still pending, without the new
> waiver.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274957#274957
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
09:10:00
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
What about the scratch builders? I have built all the parts myself and one
wing is almost finished.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
Here is a thought to ponder.The Zenith 601XL demo aircraft is at least 7
years old with I believe over 1000 flt hrs.Why haven't the wings failed?
-----Original Message-----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: $352 part II
What about the scratch builders? I have built all the parts myself and one
wing is almost finished.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
It might just take all the planet's and stars to align just right for it to
happen. who the hell knows but we are where we are so the sooner we get it
done the faster we can get back to flying.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
It has been properly loaded and flown within limits its entire life.
ZBAG saw an "opportunity to possibly influence the [NTSB]'s direction" and took
to it with great zeal.
What happens when upgraded XLs are flown beyond the new limits and crash?
Will Zenith then issue Upgrade V2: whole aircraft chutes like my hero Scott Laughlin
uses? (He was the first XL builder to take the time to really start me
off on the right track.)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274983#274983
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
ZBAG saw an "opportunity to possibly influence the [NTSB]'s direction" and
took to it with great zeal.
Sabrina
If you don't think ZBAG should have pushed for changes and you don't think
there was a problem then put your money where your mouth is and fly without
the mods.... I am sick and tired of hearing ZBAG this and ZBAG that. If
you don't think ZBAG was right then why were you so fast to order the upgrade?
Lets just get on with the mods and stop the name calling and finger
pointing we are past that now.
Jeff
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
What happens when upgraded XLs are flown beyond the new limits and crash?
BTW what "NEW" limits are you referring to the ones that were stated when
we all bought our kits?
If you do mean that then you are also saying the "NEW" limits were to high
to begin with.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
every build has its own limits...
my design changes focused on CG, stiffening the fuselage where the center spar
resides, the rear spar and its attach points... I did not think I could get
an I beam main spar mod past the MISO at age 14. Notice, I built the wings last...
as such, I would still put my aircraft up against any built to original "plans"
however, with the new 1/8" wing root doubler, rear spar attach plates, and spar
cap an upgraded XL could fly circles around my aircraft...
the FAA said it well when they used the word "non-conservative" in describing an
XL built to original plans...
once I have the final calculations, I will present my new limits to the FAA and
see how they respond...
my parents ordered the upgrade kit as a Thanksgiving present without telling me,
just like my mom bought me a Jaguar XK8 convertible to keep me off the Harley
(I can hear you laughing Ben!)
Happy Thanksgiving to all...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274986#274986
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
On Thursday 26 November 2009 10:31, Sabrina wrote:
>
> Ordering the upgrade package requires that the owner execute a new waiver
> of liability as to the design. This is important for those of us who
> ordered the kit BEFORE the first structural failure. We are now aware of
> design issues and are executing a new waiver that includes a waiver of our
> and our family's rights.
>
> >From what I understand, this requirement of a new waiver is NOT in the
> > spirit of cooperation Zenith pledged to the FAA and the NTSB. If
> > anything, it discourages compliance with the SAIB.
>
> Of all the ADs I have received on my C150L, I don't remember any
> manufacture requiring me to waive liability BEFORE they would ship the
> required replacement part. A recent example would be the new Cessna
> rudder stops, others include new Slick parts, Bendix ignition switch, and
> seat rails.
>
> Comments?
>
It seems to me that this is bargaining in bad faith. My positive impression of
Zenith is being erroded, one step at a time.
I bought a kit from them in good faith. If I had the time, tools, and patience
to fabricate the aircraft from scratch, there would have been no reason to
buy a kit.
But if I'd had time, tools, and patience then, I wouldn't need the
modification kit now. I'd just build the parts, and done with it. Yet I must
make the changes to fly the aircraft. It seems to me I am being forced to
make another agreement in order to get what they initially advertised I would
get.
I'd call that bad faith.
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
Frankly, Sabrina, my feeling is that if an aircraft needs a chute installed to
be safe, it probably isn't an aircraft I should be flying in the first place.
I've also wondered the same thing: what happens when the first modified
aircraft fails?
On Thursday 26 November 2009 14:57, Sabrina wrote:
>
> It has been properly loaded and flown within limits its entire life.
>
> ZBAG saw an "opportunity to possibly influence the [NTSB]'s direction" and
> took to it with great zeal.
>
> What happens when upgraded XLs are flown beyond the new limits and crash?
>
> Will Zenith then issue Upgrade V2: whole aircraft chutes like my hero Scott
> Laughlin uses? (He was the first XL builder to take the time to really
> start me off on the right track.)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274983#274983
>
>
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
Hey Sabrina,
Wanna trade moms?
Paul
do not archive
At 01:51 PM 11/26/2009, you wrote:
>my parents ordered the upgrade kit as a Thanksgiving present without
>telling me, just like my mom bought me a Jaguar XK8 convertible to
>keep me off the Harley (I can hear you laughing Ben!)
Message 16
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| Subject: | Fw: Recommendation from james |
Hello group has anyone seen this ad. ----- Original Message -----
From: james lawson
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 1:52 PM
Subject: Fw: Recommendation from james
Wade thought you might be interested,,,Don
--- On Thu, 11/26/09, microman78381@yahoo.com
<microman78381@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: microman78381@yahoo.com <microman78381@yahoo.com>
Subject: Recommendation from james
To: microman78381@yahoo.com
Date: Thursday, November 26, 2009, 11:50 AM
james recommends the following Barnstormers classified ad (click
on link)
http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=388716
Wing fix
AOL users, use this link:
<a
href="http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=388716">http://www.b
arnstormers.com/listing.php?id=388716</a>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
11/26/09 09:10:00
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
You have spunk ma'am... It would have loved for you to present to the MI
SO your I beam idea.. The concept is sound and they probably would have
granted you a waiver to do it.. As, for the Jag I think your parents hav
e their head on straight and driving is for sure safer then a street bik
e. I admit I am very biased though. I lost three roommates to street bik
e accidents in a sixth month period back when I was 20 or so. They all w
here the cars fault and those guys were pretty defensive riders. Didn't
do them a bit of good. ! I was a past amatuer motocross champion back i
n the early 70's so dirt bikes don't scare me.. I will fly my 801 to 18,
000agl wide open without a parachute but no way will I get on a street b
ike.
Ps... I am not laughing,,, personally I am your biggest fan but I will c
ontinue to ride you hard to push you to your limit of experimenting. You
are ok...... for a girl <GGG>
and to not let this get out that I admire your intelligence here comes t
he do not archive thing.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: $352 part II
every build has its own limits...
my design changes focused on CG, stiffening the fuselage where the cente
r spar resides, the rear spar and its attach points... I did not think
I could get an I beam main spar mod past the MISO at age 14. Notice, I
built the wings last...
as such, I would still put my aircraft up against any built to original
"plans"
however, with the new 1/8" wing root doubler, rear spar attach plates, a
nd spar cap an upgraded XL could fly circles around my aircraft...
the FAA said it well when they used the word "non-conservative" in descr
ibing an XL built to original plans...
once I have the final calculations, I will present my new limits to the
FAA and see how they respond...
my parents ordered the upgrade kit as a Thanksgiving present without tel
ling me, just like my mom bought me a Jaguar XK8 convertible to keep me
off the Harley (I can hear you laughing Ben!)
Happy Thanksgiving to all...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=274986#274986
========================
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: $352 part II |
Ben,
I wish I would have stopped by to see your 801 on my way from Sturgis to Seattle
this summer...
The HC at my dorm is from Wyoming...
next time, maybe...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275005#275005
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