Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:48 AM - Options for Already-Certified 601XL's (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
2. 06:21 AM - OT - Zodiac builders/pilots in Wales? (DaveG601XL)
3. 06:22 AM - Cleaning buffing pads (Tommy Walker)
4. 06:33 AM - Re: Options for Already-Certified 601XL's (Sabrina)
5. 07:35 AM - Re: Cleaning buffing pads (Bill Naumuk)
6. 09:11 AM - Re: Options for Already-Certified 601XL's (Pete54)
7. 01:06 PM - fuselage mods (Jim Belcher)
8. 01:59 PM - Re: fuselage mods (jaybannist@cs.com)
9. 02:07 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Jim Belcher)
10. 02:12 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Doug - SportAviation)
11. 02:15 PM - fuselage mods (Beckman, Rick)
12. 02:18 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Sabrina)
13. 02:25 PM - Re: Re: fuselage mods (Jim Belcher)
14. 02:42 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Doug - SportAviation)
15. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: fuselage mods (Rick Lindstrom)
16. 02:55 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Jim Belcher)
17. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: fuselage mods (Jim Belcher)
18. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: fuselage mods (Skip Perry)
19. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: fuselage mods (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
20. 03:48 PM - Push pull tubes (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
21. 04:18 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Paul Mulwitz)
22. 04:57 PM - Re: Options for Already-Certified 601XL's (leinad)
23. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: fuselage mods (Jon Bateman)
24. 07:13 PM - Re: fuselage mods (Gary Gower)
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| Subject: | Options for Already-Certified 601XL's |
Folks:
I have started a discussion on the zenith.aero site specifically
directed toward builder/flyers of already-certified 601XL's. The topic
of this discussion group is what are *reasonable* options for already
flying aircraft. I invite builder/flyers to visit this discussion and
add their own point of view. One or other of the two links below ought
to work.
http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/what-about-alreadyflying-eab?page=1
&commentId=2606393%3AComment%3A40159&x=1#2606393Comment40159
http://tinyurl.com/yg3gddu
Also, I have posted a rather long open letter about this topic at the
following location:
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/mods/
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
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| Subject: | OT - Zodiac builders/pilots in Wales? |
I will hopefully be traveling to Cardiff in Wales in the next week or so for business.
If there are any Zodiac builders or pilots in the area that could PM
me, we could have an off-line discussion about travel tips and maybe even meet
and compare Zodiac notes.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL/Jabiru 3300
First flight 7/24/08
116.5 hours and holding
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275724#275724
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| Subject: | Cleaning buffing pads |
Bill,
I put the dirty buffing pads, water and a cup of TSP into a two-gallon
bucket and got a commode plunger and plunged them.... Sort of like
putting them in the washing machine.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N8701T
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| Subject: | Re: Options for Already-Certified 601XL's |
Andy,
I noticed the "who may have much less knowledge about their specific aircrafts
construction" portion of your open letter...
Were your wings already closed up when you got them?
Can you say for sure your QB was 100% built in Canada or partially built in Colombia
and then sent to Canada and then to the US?
Just out of curiosity, are you or is anyone else flying since the SAIB?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275731#275731
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning buffing pads |
Tom-
I put a 1/2lb in 4 gallons yesterday and they look pretty good this
morning. Later today I'll rinse them off real good and throw them in the
washing machine.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Tommy Walker
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 9:01 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Cleaning buffing pads
Bill,
I put the dirty buffing pads, water and a cup of TSP into a two-gallon
bucket and got a commode plunger and plunged them.... Sort of like
putting them in the washing machine.
Tommy Walker in Alabama
N8701T
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| Subject: | Re: Options for Already-Certified 601XL's |
Whilst I would agree with many of the points raised there are some fundamental
inaccuracies in your 'information' regarding the UK aircraft. (I have tried to
sign-up with zenith.aero but for some reason it will not work).
None of the UK aircraft are microlights - they are all experimental, with a mauw
of 1232lbs. The rest of the European population of xls are generally microlights
with 'self declared' weights of 1050lbs. (self declared is important because
there is no way an xl could actually met the microlight empty weight limits!).
None of the UK aircraft fit this category.
The European aircraft which crashed and caused the UK (and Germany, Dutch groundings)
was a microlight version.
The UK aircraft are not built from much lighter materials than the US aircraft
(although the Czech landing gear is much lighter), all the thickness' are the
same as the US version. However the 600kg US version already has a number of
areas where the thickness' have already been increased from the 560kg version
- Zenith's reasons for this are various (and to my mind not convincing!).
The LAA modifications were based upon an independent engineering analysis and the
need to make the mods which could be easily retrofitted. They have resulted
in restrictions to the maximum fuselage weight of 1086lbs. This is to meet
the requirments of CS-VLA at 3.8g - not 6g! So the LAA analysis shows that the
centre section did not meet the CS-VLA requirments.
All of the UK aircraft are supposed to meet the requirements of the CS-VLA, this
states that flutter must NOT BE possible and so the LAA insisted upon the counter
balance because the analysis showed that if aileron tension was lost, flutter
could/might result.
To suggest that the CAA and LAA were not under political pressure is naive in the
extreme. The Dutch accident inspectors have yet to report, but the Dutch airworthiness
authority have repeatedly written to the other European authorities
stating the airframe is not strong enough........ The LAA have also been hanging
off all of the reports coming from the US, particularly the recent load
test in Canada.
>From my point of view this has left things as a bit of a shambles. There are
now multiple populations of xls at different stages of modification to differing
design codes (or in the case of US experimental no design code).
Tonight when I get home I should have a new 'permit to fly' for my xl siting in
the postbox.
As a UK homebuilt, built with a rigorous independent inspection process, it has
been grounded for over a year largely on the basis of uncertainty. The checks
of the design have shown it did not meet the CS-VLA code and it now does (apart
from trimming in flight).
So I now have a legal in the UK xl. I can only wish you all well in meeting the
various and now much differing requirements for your aircraft.
--------
Pete Morris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275782#275782
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Has anyone noticed that, in Sebastian's blog on Zenith.aero, they jumped from
starting to work on the fuselage mods, to doing the second wing? It's been a
week since the last post on working on the fuselage.
That was followed by a post on using a right angle drill. The photos were of
working on the wing, not the fuselage. It seemed a bit out of sequence at the
time, but now it sounds as though they suddenly couldn't post anything on the
fuselage mode, and wanted to get something posted before the holiday.
It makes me wonder if they've stumbled onto a problem on the fuselage mod,
perhaps in the center spar. I sure hope not, both for their sake and mine!
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing ab
out aileron balance.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Belcher <z601b@anemicaardvark.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 2, 2009 2:49 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: fuselage mods
Has anyone noticed that, in Sebastian's blog on Zenith.aero, they jumped
from
starting to work on the fuselage mods, to doing the second wing? It's been
a
week since the last post on working on the fuselage.
That was followed by a post on using a right angle drill. The photos were
of
working on the wing, not the fuselage. It seemed a bit out of sequence at
the
time, but now it sounds as though they suddenly couldn't post anything on
the
fuselage mode, and wanted to get something posted before the holiday.
It makes me wonder if they've stumbled onto a problem on the fuselage mod,
perhaps in the center spar. I sure hope not, both for their sake and mine!
--
========================
====================
Do not archive.
========================
====================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
========================
====================
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
========================
===========
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 15:57, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
> I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing
> about aileron balance.
In a word, yup. The LAA aileron balance seems to have been doable, since
they're been doing it in the UK. But there may have been a better way.
Problem is, if Zenith doesn't follow LAA's lead, and comes up with another
way, where does this put UK owners if the LAA decides everything else Zenith
did is wonderful.
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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Can't comment on the why's wrt Zenith's video order, but AMD doesn't seem to
be having any issues with the carry-through and fuselage.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 3:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: fuselage mods
Has anyone noticed that, in Sebastian's blog on Zenith.aero, they jumped
from
starting to work on the fuselage mods, to doing the second wing? It's been a
week since the last post on working on the fuselage.
That was followed by a post on using a right angle drill. The photos were of
working on the wing, not the fuselage. It seemed a bit out of sequence at
the
time, but now it sounds as though they suddenly couldn't post anything on
the
fuselage mode, and wanted to get something posted before the holiday.
It makes me wonder if they've stumbled onto a problem on the fuselage mod,
perhaps in the center spar. I sure hope not, both for their sake and mine!
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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Boy! Might this just be another fine kettle of fish!!
Rick
Soon to destroy a fine paint job!!
Do not archive.
I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing
about aileron balance.
From: Jim Belcher
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
I would imagine that one would need both wings complete (at least at the root doubler
stage) and the center spar out so that the upgraded center spar could be
mated to the wing spars during final assembly and before being re-set in the
fuselage.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275847#275847
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:17, Sabrina wrote:
>
> I would imagine that one would need both wings complete (at least at the
> root doubler stage) and the center spar out so that the upgraded center
> spar could be mated to the wing spars during final assembly and before
> being re-set in the fuselage.
An interesting thought, and it complements Doug.Norman's idea. I wonder if
this implies we must somehow check our modified center spar against our wing
spars?
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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Again, AMD has done, and is doing, the LAA aileron mass balance. Saw it on a airplane
when I brought my airplane to AMD for its mods. Since AMD, Zenith, and
Zenair are in close contact with one another, I suspect that the suspicion is
an overreaction.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: fuselage mods
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 15:57, jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
> I also noticed that "one wing is finished", but they have done nothing
> about aileron balance.
In a word, yup. The LAA aileron balance seems to have been doable, since
they're been doing it in the UK. But there may have been a better way.
Problem is, if Zenith doesn't follow LAA's lead, and comes up with another
way, where does this put UK owners if the LAA decides everything else Zenith
did is wonderful.
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
Certainly makes sense to me, Jim. I'd much rather insure that everything lines
up outside of the fuselage, than wait until the spar is back in to discover that
the alignment is off.
My gut says that Zenith is learning quite a bit along the way, and I'm very happy
to let them make all these discoveries first. They're much better at this than
I am, Gundga Din.
Rick Lindstrom
ZenVair N42KP
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Belcher <z601b@anemicaardvark.com>
>Sent: Dec 2, 2009 5:07 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: fuselage mods
>
>
>On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:17, Sabrina wrote:
>>
>> I would imagine that one would need both wings complete (at least at the
>> root doubler stage) and the center spar out so that the upgraded center
>> spar could be mated to the wing spars during final assembly and before
>> being re-set in the fuselage.
>
>An interesting thought, and it complements Doug.Norman's idea. I wonder if
>this implies we must somehow check our modified center spar against our wing
>spars?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:41, Doug - SportAviation wrote:
> Again, AMD has done, and is doing, the LAA aileron mass balance. Saw it on
> a airplane when I brought my airplane to AMD for its mods. Since AMD,
> Zenith, and Zenair are in close contact with one another, I suspect that
> the suspicion is an overreaction.
Thanks for the insight. I'm afraid the situation lends itself to over
reaction, which is unfortunate.
--
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:49, Rick Lindstrom wrote:
> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>
> Certainly makes sense to me, Jim. I'd much rather insure that everything
> lines up outside of the fuselage, than wait until the spar is back in to
> discover that the alignment is off.
>
> My gut says that Zenith is learning quite a bit along the way, and I'm very
> happy to let them make all these discoveries first. They're much better at
> this than I am, Gundga Din.
I'm glad to let them learn also, Rick. But it would require modifying the
wings first, I think. That, in my case, is so inconvenient as to be very near
to impossible. I hope this is not true.
I had to store my wings vertically on a stand to make room for the fuselage.
With the fuselage roughly half assembled, it is going to be extremely
challenging to find a place for it so I can set the wings anywhere for a mod.
I'd bet I'm not the only one who could have this problem, so hopefully, there
will be a work-around available, assuming all this train of thought is not
another over reaction. I'm probably borrowing from tomorrow's problems, but I
have a fear (justified in this case, I think) of nasty surprises.
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
I bought a "quick-build" kit because I did not feel I had the time to put
into doing it any other way. I am not a happy man looking at the thought of
opening my fuselage that I paid to have assembled and start doing work on
it. I don't fear the wings too much since I did do all of the riveting but
the thought of the fuselage gets me really in a bad mood. At this point I am
not sure whether I just want to recover my cost of engine/electronics and
say the hell with it or what. One thing for sure, I don't think I will ever
recommend a Zenith to anyone, not even my worst enemy.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Belcher
Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: fuselage mods
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 16:49, Rick Lindstrom wrote:
> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>
> Certainly makes sense to me, Jim. I'd much rather insure that everything
> lines up outside of the fuselage, than wait until the spar is back in to
> discover that the alignment is off.
>
> My gut says that Zenith is learning quite a bit along the way, and I'm
very
> happy to let them make all these discoveries first. They're much better at
> this than I am, Gundga Din.
I'm glad to let them learn also, Rick. But it would require modifying the
wings first, I think. That, in my case, is so inconvenient as to be very
near
to impossible. I hope this is not true.
I had to store my wings vertically on a stand to make room for the fuselage.
With the fuselage roughly half assembled, it is going to be extremely
challenging to find a place for it so I can set the wings anywhere for a
mod.
I'd bet I'm not the only one who could have this problem, so hopefully,
there
will be a work-around available, assuming all this train of thought is not
another over reaction. I'm probably borrowing from tomorrow's problems, but
I
have a fear (justified in this case, I think) of nasty surprises.
============================================
Do not archive.
============================================
Jim B Belcher
BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Retired aerospace technical manager
Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
Do not drink and derive.
============================================
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
zenith is having a problem trying to figure a way to re rivet the uprights
in and the rivets along the cabin floor. I know some have had to rivet
their up rights at or near the bend and if this is you you are not gonna like
the fix for it. I have decided to take the side skins off and re drill all
the holes except for the uprights then have the skin repainted. Then my
uprights will have nice fresh holes. I am also going to beef up the side skin
to .035 and if the rivets on the belly don't work out I will make that skin
.040.
I don't want a patch job on my airplane and the extra work will pay off in
the end.
Jeff
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Ok
I have decided to make push pull tubes for my 601 but they will be
nothing like the ones people are using now.
The bell crank will be attached to the spare and will have the tube running
under your legs in the cabin.
The bell crank will be made from 4130 as will the aileron tube.
The main push pull tube will be 6061 T6 11/8 by .035 wall.
By using the spar as the attach point for the bell crank it will remove all
flexing at the ribs and the other advantage is that the lightning holes
are bigger at the spar.
Parts are ordered and will install next week.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
Hi Sabrina,
Finally, someone asked a question I can answer ! !
The FAA and Zenith mods only apply to planes in the USA. The LAA
mods only apply to planes in the UK.
If I remember correctly, Chris mentioned in his Q&A that only US
planes needed updating. That doesn't keep anyone else from doing the
changes (which I hope they do). It is all just a bunch of
nationalistic politics.
Paul
XL upgrade kit ordered
At 01:50 PM 12/2/2009, you wrote:
>Problem is, if Zenith doesn't follow LAA's lead, and comes up with another
>way, where does this put UK owners if the LAA decides everything else Zenith
>did is wonderful.
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Options for Already-Certified 601XL's |
Andy,
Even though I'm not flying my XL yet, I read your statement. I was nearly done
plans building my airframe when the FAA made their proclamation. What I told
the EAA when I took their poll and will repeat here is that the thing that bothers
me most about this situation is that with little fuss the FAA has eliminated
one of my freedoms. The freedom to build and fly an experimental aircraft
has suddenly been greatly restricted. I'm not allowed to make the modifications
I see fit, but must make the ones directed by Zenith. What happened?
Dan
[quote="a.s.elliott(at)cox.net"]Folks:
I have started a discussion on the zenith.aero site specifically directed toward
builder/flyers of already-certified 601XL's. The topic of this discussion
group is what are *reasonable* options for already flying aircraft. I invite
builder/flyers to visit this discussion and add their own point of view.
One or other of the two links below ought to work.
http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/what-about-alreadyflying-eab?page=1&commentId=2606393%3AComment%3A40159&x=1#2606393Comment40159 (http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/what-about-alreadyflying-eab?page=1&commentId=2606393%3AComment%3A40159&x=1#2606393Comment40159)
http://tinyurl.com/yg3gddu (http://tinyurl.com/yg3gddu)
Also, I have posted a rather long open letter about this topic at the following
location:
http://members.cox.net/n601ge/mods/ (http://members.cox.net/n601ge/mods/)
Thanks,
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE,601XL/TD,Corvair
> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=275888#275888
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
I also was wondering why they had switched from the center section. My thou
ght was that they are trying to keep people from jumping the gun as they di
d with the wings where some builders now have to upgrade their upgrades fro
m the draft prints to final prints.
Jon
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: fuselage mods
zenith is having a problem trying to figure a way to re rivet the uprights
in and the rivets along the cabin floor. I know some have had to rivet thei
r up rights at or near the bend and if this is you you are not gonna like t
he fix for it. I have decided to take the side skins off and re drill all t
he holes except for the uprights then have the skin repainted. Then my upri
ghts will have nice fresh holes. I am also going to beef up the side skin t
o .035 and if the rivets on the belly don't work out I will make that skin
.040.
I don't want a patch job on my airplane and the extra work will pay off in
the end.
Jeff
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: fuselage mods |
Hello Jim,
-
I will rather wait with patience for the Best and Correct- Upgrade Kit!
-
Sincerly I know they will SOON come out with "The-Correct Kit".
-
Only the ones that like me, have made mods to a set of planes (others plans
built, not Zenith's)- know how a modifications adds some not spected "wo
rking hours" to the normal building process...--
-
They (at ZAC) also are HUMANS like you and me.- Better in design and buil
ding, but humans finally...- Givce them a (little) break PLEASE:
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
601XL- Jab 3300-- PATIENTLY wating for the Upgrade Kit.
Doing some work in other-areas of-the airplane... and typing in the com
puter :-)
--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Jim Belcher <z601b@anemicaardvark.com> wrote:
From: Jim Belcher <z601b@anemicaardvark.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: fuselage mods
Has anyone noticed that, in Sebastian's blog on Zenith.aero, they jumped fr
om
starting to work on the fuselage mods, to doing the second wing? It's been
a
week since the last post on working on the fuselage.
That was followed by a post on using a right angle drill. The photos were o
f
working on the wing, not the fuselage. It seemed a bit out of sequence at t
he
time, but now it sounds as though they suddenly couldn't post anything on t
he
fuselage mode, and wanted to get something posted before the holiday.
It makes me wonder if they've stumbled onto a problem on the fuselage mod,
perhaps in the center spar. I sure hope not, both for their sake and mine!
--
===================
- - - - - - - - Do not archive.
===================
- - - - - - - - Jim B Belcher
- - BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
- - - - - - - - - A&P/IA
- ---Retired aerospace technical manager
- ---Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.
- - - ---Do not drink and derive.
===================
le, List Admin.
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