Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:42 AM - Mod Kit. (Beckman, Rick)
2. 04:52 AM - Re: Mod Kit. (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up (Gig Giacona)
4. 06:44 AM - Re: Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up (John Smith)
5. 08:00 AM - Re: need latest XL upgrade drawings (Malcolm Hunt)
6. 02:50 PM - New Drawings are up at Zenith (lwhitlow)
7. 03:13 PM - Re: New Drawings are up at Zenith (Bill Pagan)
8. 03:16 PM - Re: New Drawings are up at Zenith (Ashley)
9. 03:56 PM - Re: New Drawings are up at Zenith (Bill Pagan)
10. 05:30 PM - A smidge of good news (kkinney)
11. 05:47 PM - Re: A smidge of good news (Bryan Martin)
12. 05:57 PM - Re: A smidge of good news (Craig Payne)
13. 06:01 PM - Re: A smidge of good news (Carlos Sa)
14. 06:03 PM - A6 rivet (Carlos Sa)
15. 06:14 PM - Re: A smidge of good news (Peter Chapman)
16. 06:59 PM - Re: A smidge of good news (Ron Lendon)
17. 07:05 PM - Re: A6 rivet (PatrickW)
18. 07:06 PM - Re: A smidge of good news (kkinney)
19. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: A6 rivet (Carlos Sa)
20. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: A smidge of good news (Bryan Martin)
21. 07:51 PM - Re: A6 rivet (leinad)
Message 1
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P-Rod,
I have not heard what
all is in the Mod Kit. Is it complete, yet? Last I heard, they did not
have all the parts and pieces included. Can you shed some light here?
Thanks,
Rick
Message 2
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My latest information is that ZAC has not yet completed their efforts
engineering the upgrade kit. Until that is done, all these questions
are premature.
Paul
XL upgrade kit on order
At 04:42 AM 12/9/2009, you wrote:
>I have not heard what all is in the Mod Kit. Is it complete, yet?
>Last I heard, they did not have all the parts and pieces included.
>Can you shed some light here?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up |
Those pictures tell nothing. Every bit of that damage could have happened on impact.
Where the wing connects to the fuselage is what we need to see.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276811#276811
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up |
Those pictures show quite a bit of info and I concur that more pictures sho
wing the junction points between the wings & fuselage would be better.- H
owever, I would place a good bet that once the rear spars buckled such that
the plane became uncontrollable, the wings would quickly depart thereafter
.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "paulrod36@msn.com
" <paulrod36@msn.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, December
8, 2009 10:42:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up
=0A=0A=0ASorry to be so blunt, but these pictures show diddly., so I've got
a few questions:=0A=0AWhy are there no pictures of the wing spar attach po
ints?- Why are there no pictures of the wing spar carry-throughs? Who too
k these pictures? And who selected these?=0A-Let's review what happened h
ere. The wings separated in flight, thus causing the crash.- Buckling of
the rear spars somewhere outboard would have made the plane uncontrollable,
but it would not likely have come apart until impact. That's not what we s
ee here. The wings are elsewhere, having come off and-been stripped of-
their aileron cables and bell cranks in the process. Not surprising; that's
a 900-pound or so tensile cable pulling out of a 200 or so pound tensile w
ing rib. Of course it will tear a hole where the pushrod was, and MAYBE cau
se a compression failure in the rear spar top or bottom, but the compressio
n failure could have as easily come from impact, AFTER separation.-Either
way, the compression failures had to occur AFTER wing separation. You woul
dn't get compression failures like that unless the main spar bent backwards
. We don't have a view of the spar.-Back to the questions: How did the wi
ngs separate? Without the evidence provided
by pictures (and a few microscopic close-ups would also have been helpful)
we don't know if the wings moved longitudinally to failure, or vertically.
Did they fail upwards or downwards? Did anybody check the fuselage side sk
ins for the gouges which must have been made at the time of failure? Which
component, the main or rear spar, failed first? Are the broken ends torn, s
heared, or bent to failure? Do the broken ends show oxidation, or pitting,
as might be seen in a substandard material, or old fatigue crack? How much
twist is there at the failure point?- The rivet marks on the flaps don't
mean much. Once the actuator arm is separated, the flap can bang back and f
orth in the turbulent airstream of the falling wing, or its inertia can cau
se those marks if the wing hits the ground leading edge first, or inverted,
or even flaps-first. Maybe the crash investigator addressed these question
s during his examination of the wreckage, but if he did, we should
have access to those answers.-=0A=0AThe pictures we see apparently were
taken from 14:51 to 16:26. In an hour and 35 minutes, he had to have taken
more than 11 pictures.=0A=0AAnybody feels like flaming, go right ahead. But
we still don't know any more now than earlier.=0A=0APaul R=0AWaiting for t
he kit.=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: lwhitlow =0A>To: zenith-li
st@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:49 PM=0A>Subject: Z
enith-List: Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up=0A>=0A>--> Zenith-List message posted
by: "lwhitlow" <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>=0A>=0A>Agnos AR NTSB Pics are up=0A
>=0A>I saw them posted over on the zenith.aero site here =0A>=0A>http://www
.zenith.aero/forum/topics/ntsb-photos-from-most-recent=0A>=0A>=0A>My questi
on after viewing them is still the same as it was after seeing the Yuba Cit
y pictures=0A>=0A>What failed first??=0A>=0A>The pics show the compression
buckling in the rear spar at RR7 ( the rib that mounts the bell crank)- a
nd in other places inboard- But the notes also indicate that the cables,
bell crank, aileron push rod and aileron bracket were ripped out through th
e wing as the wing left the airframe and all remained attached to the fusel
age.- Could some of the noted damage have come from this stuff getting pu
lled through the wing??- I mean that bell crank is not gonna fit through
the holes in the ribs and if it comes out that way could it cause the bends
in the rear spar??-- Pics of the interior of that wing would help.=0A>
=0A>The score marks on the flap are also interesting.- Enough upward forc
e was put on the flap push it up past the stop so its upper leading edge ma
de contact with the rivet bottoms in the rear spar.- Or did the wing rear
spar move down, with the flap held in place by the control arm thus causin
g the scars-- Again a pic of the rear spar doubler / mounting hole and
the rear spar attach bracket would answer the question=0A>=0A>I would reall
y like to see the failure mode of the main spar to center spar and the rear
spar to rear attach=0A>=0A>You would think in this day and age with digita
l cameras what they are, there would be hundreds of pictures. I mean its on
ly electrons=0A>=0A>Larry Whitlow=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>Read this topic online
here:=0A>=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276667#276667
=0A>=0A>=0A>http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ;--
------------------- -Matt Dralle, Lis
t nbsp;------ Features Chat, http://www.matronnbsp;--- vi
a the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matron
ics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>_===========
======================0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: need latest XL upgrade drawings |
Dear Group
The part which Chris refers (6-ZU-3-5) has a note to the effect that for 650
use 65-ZU-3-5 and for parts 6-ZU-2-7 & 8 to use 65-ZU-2-7 &8 does anyone
know where to find the drawings for the 650 revisions?
Malcolm Hunt
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:31 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: need latest XL upgrade drawings
>
> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com.au>
>
> Gang
> I am away from my computer which has the Dec 6-ZU upgrade drawings, the
> ones with the external fuselage doubler above the wings.
> Can some one please send me them so I can use them for discussion with a
> sheet metal guy please. And yes I know they are draft..
> Chris
> chris_sinfield(at)yahoo.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276748#276748
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | New Drawings are up at Zenith |
New drawings are up and dated December 9 2009
They do not have the Draft marking on them
Larry Whitlow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276894#276894
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: New Drawings are up at Zenith |
Thats interesting - what happened to page 6?
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Wed, 12/9/09, lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net> wrote:
From: lwhitlow <ldwhitlow@comcast.net>
Subject: Zenith-List: New Drawings are up at Zenith
New drawings are up and dated December 9 2009
They do not have the Draft marking on them
Larry Whitlow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276894#276894
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 8
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| Subject: | New Drawings are up at Zenith |
Got a link to the drawings? I cannot find them.
Floyd Wilkes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lwhitlow
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 4:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: New Drawings are up at Zenith
New drawings are up and dated December 9 2009
They do not have the Draft marking on them
Larry Whitlow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276894#276894
Message 9
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| Subject: | New Drawings are up at Zenith |
Here's the link
-
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-ZU-DEC9.pdf-
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Wed, 12/9/09, Ashley <ashleyw@gvtc.com> wrote:
From: Ashley <ashleyw@gvtc.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: New Drawings are up at Zenith
Got a link to the drawings?- I cannot find them.
Floyd Wilkes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lwhitlow
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 4:49 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: New Drawings are up at Zenith
New drawings are up and dated December 9 2009
They do not have the Draft marking on them
Larry Whitlow
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276894#276894
le, List Admin.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | A smidge of good news |
I've debated whether or not to post this. In the end, I figured it could help others,
even if it does my ego no good.
My 601XL took to the air on 11/21 and she flew like an airsick angel. Yes, airsick,
although it shouldn't reflect on either the airframe or engine. Only on
the pilot & builder.
On takeoff I bobbled the rotation (a merciful interpretation) and flew in ground
effect to pick up speed. Near the end of the runway, the RPM dropped. I had
previously studied the satellite photos and knew turning left would give me more
options.
A left turn brought me in line with a long field. At 50-100 feet, you don't have
time to run an emergency checklist. I wasn't able to flip the comm over to the
standby freq; 121.5. I didn't have time to flip the transponder over to the
standby code; 7700. I think I called a pan-pan and committed to an off-field
landing.
After avoiding a tree line, I pulled back the throttle to land. RPM's picked up.
I didn't think it was supposed to work like that, but that was something for
later. I maintained altitude but was running out of field and made another
left turn to a shorter field.
I continued the left hand turn and (maybe) climbed above the tree line. Soon I
saw my first field and maneuvered for this. If necessary, I could land there
or continue back to the pavement.
RPMs held steady and I headed back to the runway. The landing was far better than
the take off and I taxied back to the FBO.
The culprit was a partially clogged fuel filter. As I figure it, full throttle
resulted in a too lean mixture and reducing throttle balanced the mixture.
In preparation for first flight, I made about 8 full power taxi run-ups to avoid
fuel problems like this. I didn't want to get above stall speed, so this limited
me to about 10 seconds of full power. This wasnt enough time to deplete
the carb reservoir.
In hind sight, there were a couple things I could have done to detect this problem.
I could have either stood on the brakes and run up the engine for over 30
seconds. This would have done bad things to the cylinder temps. Alternately,
I could have prepped for first flight and held full power for 30 seconds regardless
of the speed.
Id like to thank Dave Gallagher and Dennis Hardison. Both are better pilots than
I and did a great job at hiding their concern. My wife & two boys didn't know
anything was unusual until after I shut down the engine.
Dave provided a great deal of support in diagnosing the problem and suggesting
how to avoid the problem in the future.
My tech counselors were Gary Collins and the late Howard Wells. (We miss you,
old man.) Neil Hulin provided support and inspiration early in the build process.
And finally Id like to thank my wife for her support. Without her, it wouldn't
have been necessary to spend so much time in the garage.
Regards,
Kevin Kinney
P.S. After changing the fuel filter and more testing, we flew a traditional rectangular
pattern. Let flight testing proceed!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276920#276920
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: A smidge of good news |
Is your fuel filter upstream or downstream from your fuel pump?
>
> I've debated whether or not to post this. In the end, I figured it could help
others, even if it does my ego no good.
>
> My 601XL took to the air on 11/21 and she flew like an airsick angel. Yes, airsick,
although it shouldn't reflect on either the airframe or engine. Only on
the pilot & builder.
>
>
> The culprit was a partially clogged fuel filter. As I figure it, full throttle
resulted in a too lean mixture and reducing throttle balanced the mixture.
> In preparation for first flight, I made about 8 full power taxi run-ups to avoid
fuel problems like this. I didn't want to get above stall speed, so this
limited me to about 10 seconds of full power. This wasnt enough time to deplete
the carb reservoir.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 12
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| Subject: | A smidge of good news |
I'm glad this ended well and thanks for posting. I'm not trying to second guess
you, just curious: did you do a fuel flow test of the final complete fuel system?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kkinney
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 5:29 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: A smidge of good news
I've debated whether or not to post this. In the end, I figured it could help others,
even if it does my ego no good.
My 601XL took to the air on 11/21 and she flew like an airsick angel. Yes, airsick,
although it shouldn't reflect on either the airframe or engine. Only on
the pilot & builder.
On takeoff I bobbled the rotation (a merciful interpretation) and flew in ground
effect to pick up speed. Near the end of the runway, the RPM dropped. I had
previously studied the satellite photos and knew turning left would give me more
options.
A left turn brought me in line with a long field. At 50-100 feet, you don't have
time to run an emergency checklist. I wasn't able to flip the comm over to the
standby freq; 121.5. I didn't have time to flip the transponder over to the
standby code; 7700. I think I called a pan-pan and committed to an off-field
landing.
After avoiding a tree line, I pulled back the throttle to land. RPM's picked up.
I didn't think it was supposed to work like that, but that was something for
later. I maintained altitude but was running out of field and made another
left turn to a shorter field.
I continued the left hand turn and (maybe) climbed above the tree line. Soon I
saw my first field and maneuvered for this. If necessary, I could land there
or continue back to the pavement.
RPMs held steady and I headed back to the runway. The landing was far better than
the take off and I taxied back to the FBO.
The culprit was a partially clogged fuel filter. As I figure it, full throttle
resulted in a too lean mixture and reducing throttle balanced the mixture.
In preparation for first flight, I made about 8 full power taxi run-ups to avoid
fuel problems like this. I didn't want to get above stall speed, so this limited
me to about 10 seconds of full power. This wasnt enough time to deplete
the carb reservoir.
In hind sight, there were a couple things I could have done to detect this problem.
I could have either stood on the brakes and run up the engine for over 30
seconds. This would have done bad things to the cylinder temps. Alternately,
I could have prepped for first flight and held full power for 30 seconds regardless
of the speed.
Id like to thank Dave Gallagher and Dennis Hardison. Both are better pilots than
I and did a great job at hiding their concern. My wife & two boys didn't know
anything was unusual until after I shut down the engine.
Dave provided a great deal of support in diagnosing the problem and suggesting
how to avoid the problem in the future.
My tech counselors were Gary Collins and the late Howard Wells. (We miss you,
old man.) Neil Hulin provided support and inspiration early in the build process.
And finally Id like to thank my wife for her support. Without her, it wouldn't
have been necessary to spend so much time in the garage.
Regards,
Kevin Kinney
P.S. After changing the fuel filter and more testing, we flew a traditional rectangular
pattern. Let flight testing proceed!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276920#276920
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: A smidge of good news |
Kevin, congratulations on your first flight!!
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Riveting centre wing
(do not archive)
2009/12/9 kkinney <kkinney@fuse.net>
>
> I've debated whether or not to post this. In the end, I figured it could
> help others, even if it does my ego no good.
>
> My 601XL took to the air on 11/21 and she flew like an airsick angel. Yes,
> airsick, although it shouldn't reflect on either the airframe or engine.
> Only on the pilot & builder.
> ...
Message 14
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Can somebody tell me whether A6 rivets also need to have a domed head?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Riveting centre wing
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| Subject: | Re: A smidge of good news |
A smidge of good news?
I can probably speak for a few: Not losing the aircraft and being
alive is pretty damn good.
Good example for us all about how partial power or short full power
run-ups may not always be enough.
Also, demonstrating the case where reducing throttle can improve
engine performance if the problem is a limitation on fuel flow.
While pilots have to talk with their families at some point about the
real risks, it was maybe not a bad thing that not everyone understood
what was happening.
I didn't have much fun one time while watching my dad get a plane
around a low circuit with a sick engine. Even though he had plenty of
glider time and understood stalls, there's little latitude for
mistakes. I've also lost two friends in crashes with sick engines,
spinning in while trying to get back. If the engine in either case
had just plain quit, their chances dropping it into a field would
have been much better.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON 601 HDS / 912 / C-GZDC
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: A smidge of good news |
Kevin,
That's way better than a Smidge. Thank you for letting out the details, it has
helped me and I'm sure others will also benefit from this post.
Again, Thank You,
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
http://home.comcast.net/~rlendon/site/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276939#276939
Message 17
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Don't know if they "have" to, but I have a number of A6's in my airframe. I hollowed
out a rivet head to make the domed rivets for them just like the A4's and
A5's.
I used A6's in my upper spar caps, and at the canopy latch bearing attachments
(to the fuselage sides) for the 650 canopy I put on my XL.
Patrick
--------
Patrick
XL/650/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276940#276940
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: A smidge of good news |
I knew fuel difficulties are the main causes of first flight problems so I did
a lot of fuel testing.
Early last summer, I did a full fuel flow test at level and climb attitudes. Both
came out at 300% of max fuel flow.
To flush the system, I circulated fuel through the filters and back into the tanks.
I checked both gascolators and found them clean. The final filter was enclosed
so I couldn't examine that.
What I did wrong -
1) My fuel pressure sender is in the wrong spot. It's before the final fuel filter.
I'm considering moving it between the mechanical pump & carb.
2) A fuel flow test 6 months ago wasn't good enough. I should have done one before
the first flight.
Either of these would have avoided the situation. I'm kicking myself for not realizing
before my first flight.
If you take one thing away from my experience, make sure you do a fuel flow test
in the days before your first flight.
Keep learning,
Kevin Kinney
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=276941#276941
Message 19
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Thanks, Patrick
Carlos
do not archive
2009/12/9 PatrickW <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
>
> Don't know if they "have" to, but I have a number of A6's in my airframe.
> I hollowed out a rivet head to make the domed rivets for them just like the
> A4's and A5's.
>
> I used A6's in my upper spar caps, and at the canopy latch bearing
> attachments (to the fuselage sides) for the 650 canopy I put on my XL.
>
> Patrick
>
> --------
> Patrick
> XL/650/Corvair
> N63PZ (reserved)
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: A smidge of good news |
It's a whole lot easier to push fuel through a partially clogged filter than to
suck fuel through one. The final fuel filter should be downstream of the fuel
pump. You have a finger screen in the tank and probably a gascolator upstream
of the pump, that should be plenty. Even in automobiles, the filter is downstream
of the pump.
The fuel pressure sender should definitely be just upstream of the carburetor,
that's the only place where fuel pressure matters. Any fitting, sharp bend or
filter will cause a pressure drop in the fuel flow.
>
> I knew fuel difficulties are the main causes of first flight problems so I did
a lot of fuel testing.
>
> Early last summer, I did a full fuel flow test at level and climb attitudes.
Both came out at 300% of max fuel flow.
> To flush the system, I circulated fuel through the filters and back into the
tanks. I checked both gascolators and found them clean. The final filter was
enclosed so I couldn't examine that.
>
> What I did wrong -
> 1) My fuel pressure sender is in the wrong spot. It's before the final fuel
filter. I'm considering moving it between the mechanical pump & carb.
> 2) A fuel flow test 6 months ago wasn't good enough. I should have done one
before the first flight.
>
> Either of these would have avoided the situation. I'm kicking myself for not
realizing before my first flight.
>
> If you take one thing away from my experience, make sure you do a fuel flow test
in the days before your first flight.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
Message 21
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Carlos,
If we are talking about the solid rivets as used in the spar they are domed. The
drawing calls for:
AN-470-AD-6-14s
I think I heard that the kit will have the fasteners included.. but don't quote
me.
Dan
[quote="carlossa52(at)gmail.com"]Can somebody tell me whether A6 rivets also need
to have a domed head?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
Riveting centre wing
> [b]
--------
Scratch building XL with Corvair Engine
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