Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:37 AM - Re: Re: (no subject) (Doug - SportAviation)
2. 06:08 AM - Re: Re: (no subject) (Craig Spainhower)
3. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: (no subject) (Doug - SportAviation)
4. 08:11 AM - Re: Re: (no subject) (Bill Pagan)
5. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: (no subject) (Frank Roskind)
6. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: (no subject) (Doug - SportAviation)
7. 05:39 PM - Re: Re: (no subject) (purplemoon99@bellsouth.net)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
That=99s the key question, isn=99t it: =9CSO
WHAT.=9D
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market =93 they see an
opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their
position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the
approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with
a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications.
The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the
configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled
by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not
Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except
at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport
Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the
implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one
is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore,
clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case,
it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
purplemoon99@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it?
Joe N101HD
_____
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it=99s not really a Piper at all.. And, it=99s not
being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by =9CPiperSport Distribution, Inc.=9D
The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser
manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which
states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
<mikelloyd9@btinternet..com
<http://us.mc520.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mikelloyd9@btinternet.com
> >
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p==========
=========
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and
is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market
which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, i
t
will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an
experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation <
Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero> wrote:
> That=92s the key question, isn=92t it: =93SO WHAT.=94
>
>
> It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market ' they see an opportu
nity
> to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the
low
> end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking.
> There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
>
>
> Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a
> Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. Th
e
> most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration,
> maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the
> MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. N
ew
> Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's leng
th.
> What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You'
ve
> got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
>
>
> The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one
is
> entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clari
ty
> in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is
> hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
>
>
> *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *
> purplemoon99@bellsouth.net
> *Sent:* Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
>
>
> SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? J
oe
> N101HD
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
> *Subject:* RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
>
> In fact, it=92s not really a Piper at all.. And, it=92s not being sold b
y
> Piper (despite how it looks).
>
>
> It is being marketed by =93PiperSport Distribution, Inc.=94 The actual se
ller
> is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely
> re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
>
>
> If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which
> states in part:
>
>
> *<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
*
>
> *manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller*
>
>
> *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary Gower
> *Sent:* Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
>
>
> In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
>
>
> Saludos
>
> Gary Gower.
>
> --- On *Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4:24 PM
>
com <http://us.mc520.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mikelloyd9@btinternet.c
om>>
>
>
> it looks to more like the sports cruiser
>
>
> made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p==========
========= **
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
You're not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business, then the
current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA, call your local FSDO,
or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And, if that happens when you
are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight training) you're
hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight training industry).
That's the first issue. The second issue is maintenance. It is NOT a part 23
airplane. Again, the manufacturer's maintenance manual is the sole arbiter
of what can be done, and how it is done. Again, no issue for E-LSA; huge
issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer Repairman Cert
training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alterations to the
aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who controls that. Not
an issue if they're responsive; huge issue if they're not.
I'm certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but, one must understand
the issues - it's the subtle ones that can come bite you in the butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training, and
purchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA
emerging market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of
putting the training program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and
is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market
which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, it
will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an
experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation
<Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero> wrote:
That's the key question, isn't it: "SO WHAT."
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market - they see an opportunity
to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the low
end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the approach they're taking.
There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a
Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The
most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration,
maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the
MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New
Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length.
What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've
got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one is
entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, clarity
in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is
hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
purplemoon99@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe
N101HD
_____
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it's not really a Piper at all.. And, it's not being sold by Piper
(despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by "PiperSport Distribution, Inc." The actual seller is
Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely
re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which
states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
<http://us.mc520.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> >
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p===================
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
Doesn't the same risk apply to any LSA=C2-purchased then from any manufac
turer?=C2- It thats the case there are a lot of aircraft owners out there
with LSA's=C2-whistling past the graveyard.=0A=C2-Bill Pagan =0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Doug - SportAviation <
Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue
, January 26, 2010 10:35:56 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
=0A=0A=0AYou=99re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of busine
ss, then the current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA, call your
local FSDO, or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And, if that happ
ens when you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight traini
ng) you=99re hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight
training industry). That=99s the first issue. The second issue is ma
intenance. It is NOT a part 23 airplane. Again, the manufacturer=99s
maintenance manual is the sole arbiter of what can be done, and how it is d
one. Again, no issue for E-LSA; huge issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the co
mpanies who offer Repairman Cert training for details. The third is what yo
u can do wrt alterations to the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the
ONLY one who controls that. =C2-Not an issue if they=99re responsiv
e; huge issue if they=99re not.=0A=C2-=0AI=99m certainly not
bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but, one must understand the issues
=93 it=99s the subtle ones that can come bite you in the butt.=0A=C2
-=0AHow do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training, and p
urchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA emergi
ng market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of putting th
e training program together.=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-zenith-list-server@matro
nics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Spainhower=0ASent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:07 AM=0ATo: zenith-list@mat
ronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)=0A=C2-=0AI did my
transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me and is a nic
e flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market which may
be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA, it will al
ways be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an experimental. =0A
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportavi
ation.aero> wrote:=0AThat=99s the key question, isn=99t it:
=9CSO WHAT.=9D=0A=C2-=0AIt's good that Piper is validating the L
SA market =93 they see an opportunity to get into the market and pote
ntially reestablish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I
do wonder about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in t
here.=0A=C2-=0AHere's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by
the FAA with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some im
plications. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the co
nfiguration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by t
he MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper.
New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's le
ngth. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under?
You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).=0A
=C2-=0AThe point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LS
As one is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefor
e, clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case,
it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-zeni
th-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
] On Behalf Of purplemoon99@bellsouth.net=0ASent: Monday, January 25, 2010
6:25 PM =0A=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re:
(no subject)=0A=C2-=0ASO WHAT? It's a damm good =C2-airplane=C2-=C2
- Whose name would you put on it?=C2-=C2- Joe N101HD=0A=C2-=0A=0A__
______________________________=0A=0AFrom:Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@
sportaviation.aero> =0A=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent:Mon, January
25, 2010 4:52:03 PM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject) =0AIn fac
t, it=99s not really a Piper at all.. And, it=99s not being sol
d by Piper (despite how it looks).=0A=C2-=0AIt is being marketed by
=9CPiperSport Distribution, Inc.=9D The actual seller is Czech Spo
rt Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it a
s the Piper Sport.=0A=C2-=0AIf one places an order for one, you must sign
the order agreement which states in part:=0A=C2-=0A<the order is placed
with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is=0Amanufactured by Czech
Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-zenith-lis
t-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On B
ehalf Of Gary Gower=0ASent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM=0ATo: zenith-l
ist@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)=0A=C2-=0AI
n fact IS the Sport Cruiser...=0A=C2-=0ASaludos=0AGary Gower.=0A=0A--- On
Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A=0A>From: f
lyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>=0A>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no sub
ject)=0A>To: zenith-list@matronics.com=0A>Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4
ternet..com>=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A> =C2-=0A>=C2- =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>
=0A>it looks to more like the sports cruiser=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=C2-
=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be b
uilt in=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=C2- =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=C2- =0A>
=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=C2- =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=C2- =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A
> =0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=C2- =0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A> =0A>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=====
============== =0A>=C2-=0A>http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Zenith-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com/=0A>http://www.
matronics.com/contribution=0A>=C2- =0A=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Aarget
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List=0Attp://forums.m
atronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =C2-=0A
=C2-=0A =C2-=0A =C2-=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A
=====================0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
There might be some further implications. The Bellanca Champ used a two cy
linder Franklin engine that is no longer in production. Had this been a SL
SA=2C and if the manufacturer refused to extend TBO=2C since engine parts a
re not available=2C the owner would be out of luck.
At that point the owner would need to go to the FAA=2C and see if he could
apply for a waiver.
From: Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
You=92re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business=2C then the
current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA=2C call your local FSDO
=2C or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And=2C if that happens whe
n you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight training) you
=92re hosed (consider the implications of targeting the flight training ind
ustry). That=92s the first issue. The second issue is maintenance. It is NO
T a part 23 airplane. Again=2C the manufacturer=92s maintenance manual is t
he sole arbiter of what can be done=2C and how it is done. Again=2C no issu
e for E-LSA=3B huge issue for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer
Repairman Cert training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alte
rations to the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who cont
rols that. Not an issue if they=92re responsive=3B huge issue if they=92re
not.
I=92m certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything=3B but=2C one must unde
rstand the issues ' it=92s the subtle ones that can come bite you in the
butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training=2C and purch
ased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA emerging m
arket. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of putting the tr
aining program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday=2C January 26=2C 2010 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser=2C it worked well for me an
d is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training market
which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as an S-LSA
=2C it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify as an exp
erimental.
On Tue=2C Jan 26=2C 2010 at 6:35 AM=2C Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sp
ortaviation.aero> wrote:
That=92s the key question=2C isn=92t it: =93SO WHAT.=94
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market ' they see an opportuni
ty to get into the market and potentially reestablish their position at the
low end with no risk=3B however=2C I do wonder about the approach they're
taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with a T
ype Certificate=2C but by the manufacturer. That has some implications. The
most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configuration=2C
maintenance=2C and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUFACT
URER. So=2C in this case=2C who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Pip
er (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. W
hat happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've
got an E-LSA=2C not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).
The point is that=2C unlike with standard-certed aircraft=2C with S-LSAs on
e is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore=2C
clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And=2C in this case
=2C it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of purplemoon99@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday=2C January 25=2C 2010 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it? Joe
N101HD
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
Sent: Mon=2C January 25=2C 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact=2C it=92s not really a Piper at all.. And=2C it=92s not being sold
by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by =93PiperSport Distribution=2C Inc.=94 The actual se
ller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser manufacturer. They mer
ely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one=2C you must sign the order agreement which s
tates in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution=2C Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft=2C a.s.=2C which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday=2C January 25=2C 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri=2C 1/22/10=2C flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
m>
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p==========
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Message 6
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Yes. It is a general risk area. And that was the point of my original
post: with SLSAs =93 intended for commercial use - one is entering
into a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. That is why the
manufacturer should be made explicit; and I found the business
arrangement a bit too =9Cclever.=9D
As an owner of an AMD SLSA, I have a vested interest in their survival;
or in another company picking up the manufacturing of the Zodiac SLSA
and accepting responsibility for previous AMD SLSAs. The reason for this
is that the FAA demands that a manufacturer manage the equivalent of the
type data, and manage the maintenance and safety programs for the SLSA
(issuing SA, maintaining the Maintenance Manual, etc.).
It does seem to suggest that a manufacturer who offers an airplane which
fits the definition of an LSA but which has a standard airworthiness
cert would be in a good market position. Perhaps that=99s why
Cessna has gone through the expense of performing all the Part-23-type
testing on their C-162.
For Piper=99s part, I suppose they could decide to add become a
PiperSport manufacturer and pay licensing fees to Czech Sport Aircraft.
Then use the long legacy of Piper=99s name in the industry to
mitigate any fears that they would disappear.
Of course, it doesn=99t seem that many people worry about this
issue but, as we all learn about this area of SP/LSA, flight
schools will.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Pagan
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
Doesn't the same risk apply to any LSA purchased then from any
manufacturer? It thats the case there are a lot of aircraft owners out
there with LSA's whistling past the graveyard.
Bill Pagan
_____
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
Sent: Tue, January 26, 2010 10:35:56 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
You=99re not correct. If the manufacturer goes out of business,
then the current airworthiness cert is invalid. Check on EAA, call your
local FSDO, or contact AFS- 610 in OK for clarification. And, if that
happens when you are using the SLSA for commercial purposes (e.g. flight
training) you=99re hosed (consider the implications of targeting
the flight training industry). That=99s the first issue. The
second issue is maintenance. It is NOT a part 23 airplane. Again, the
manufacturer=99s maintenance manual is the sole arbiter of what
can be done, and how it is done. Again, no issue for E-LSA; huge issue
for S-LSA. Contact any of the companies who offer Repairman Cert
training for details. The third is what you can do wrt alterations to
the aircraft. The original manufacturer is the ONLY one who controls
that. Not an issue if they=99re responsive; huge issue if
they=99re not.
I=99m certainly not bad-mouthing anyone or anything; but, one must
understand the issues =93 it=99s the subtle ones that can
come bite you in the butt.
How do I know? I am an instructor that offered SP/LSA training, and
purchased an SLSA specifically for the purpose of entering the SP/LSA
emerging market. I discovered these things during the due-diligence of
putting the training program together.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craig
Spainhower
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
I did my transition training in a Sport Cruiser, it worked well for me
and is a nice flying aircraft. I think they have targeted the training
market which may be part of Pipers interest. And if it's registered as
an S-LSA, it will always be an S-LSA unless you intentionally recertify
as an experimental.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35 AM, Doug - SportAviation
<Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero> wrote:
That=99s the key question, isn=99t it: =9CSO
WHAT.=9D
It's good that Piper is validating the LSA market =93 they see an
opportunity to get into the market and potentially reestablish their
position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder about the
approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.
Here's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA with
a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implications.
The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the
configuration, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled
by the MANUFACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not
Piper. New Piper (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except
at arm's length. What happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport
Aircraft goes under? You've got an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the
implications from that!).
The point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one
is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore,
clarity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case,
it is hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
purplemoon99@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
SO WHAT? It's a damm good airplane Whose name would you put on it?
Joe N101HD
_____
From: Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>
Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52:03 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact, it=99s not really a Piper at all.. And, it=99s not
being sold by Piper (despite how it looks).
It is being marketed by =9CPiperSport Distribution, Inc.=9D
The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who is the SportCruiser
manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport.
If one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreement which
states in part:
<the order is placed with> PiperSport Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is
manufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft, a.s., which is the seller
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
In fact IS the Sport Cruiser...
Saludos
Gary Gower.
--- On Fri, 1/22/10, flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> wrote:
From: flyingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)
<mikelloyd9@btinternet..com
<http://us.mc520.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mikelloyd9@btinternet.com
> >
it looks to more like the sports cruiser
made in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p==========
=========
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http://forums.matronics.com/
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
ttp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: (no subject) |
I think that the real problem lies here. A frist class, well known well est
ablished aircraft company (piper)with a service network world wide has hook
ed up with a proven air craft manufacture,with a proven ,great aircraft (Sp
ortcruiser) ,now they have a perfect set up to get the largest slice of the
LS market. I'll bet once they get going they,they will be hard to beatSOOO
OO all the what IFs and bla bla bla won't=C2-amount to Crap=C2-Still th
ink It's best light sport plane I've ever flown and would love to own one..
...=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Joe N101HD=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Doug - SportAviatio
n <Doug.Norman@sportaviation.aero>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent:
Tue, January 26, 2010 7:35:49 AM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subjec
t)=0A=0A=0AThat=99s the key question, isn=99t it: =9CSO W
HAT.=9D=0A=C2-=0AIt's good that Piper is validating the LSA market
=93 they see an opportunity to get into the market and potentially re
establish their position at the low end with no risk; however, I do wonder
about the approach they're taking. There's a buried "gotcha" in there.=0A
=C2-=0AHere's the "gotcha." SLSAs are governed and managed not by the FAA
with a Type Certificate, but by the manufacturer. That has some implicatio
ns. The most important for an owner is that EVERYTHING about the configurat
ion, maintenance, and management of the airplane is controlled by the MANUF
ACTURER. So, in this case, who's the manufacturer? It's not Piper. New Pipe
r (the company we know as Piper) is not involved except at arm's length. Wh
at happens to your Piper Sport if Czech Sport Aircraft goes under? You've g
ot an E-LSA, not an S-LSA (and all the implications from that!).=0A=C2-
=0AThe point is that, unlike with standard-certed aircraft, with S-LSAs one
is entering a long-term relationship with the manufacturer. Therefore, cla
rity in who the relationship is with is important. And, in this case, it is
hidden. This is a bit of bait-and-switch.=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-zenith-lis
t-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On B
ehalf Of purplemoon99@bellsouth.net=0ASent: Monday, January 25, 2010 6:25 P
M=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subje
ct)=0A=C2-=0ASO WHAT? It's a damm good =C2-airplane=C2-=C2- Whose n
ame would you put on it?=C2-=C2- Joe N101HD=0A=C2-=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0A=0AFrom:Doug - SportAviation <Doug.Norman@sportaviati
on.aero>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Mon, January 25, 2010 4:52
:03 PM=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)=0AIn fact, it=99s
not really a Piper at all.. And, it=99s not being sold by Piper (des
pite how it looks).=0A=C2-=0AIt is being marketed by =9CPiperSport
Distribution, Inc.=9D The actual seller is Czech Sport Aircraft who i
s the SportCruiser manufacturer. They merely re-badge it as the Piper Sport
.=0A=C2-=0AIf one places an order for one, you must sign the order agreem
ent which states in part:=0A=C2-=0A<the order is placed with> PiperSport
Distribution, Inc. The aircraft is=0Amanufactured by Czech Sport Aircraft,
a.s., which is the seller=0A=C2-=0AFrom:owner-zenith-list-server@matronic
s.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gow
er=0ASent: Monday, January 25, 2010 3:48 PM=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com
=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)=0A=C2-=0AIn fact IS the Spo
rt Cruiser...=0A=C2-=0ASaludos=0AGary Gower.=0A=0A--- On Fri, 1/22/10, fl
yingmike9 <mikelloyd9@btinternet.com> wrote:=0A=0A>From: flyingmike9 <mikel
loyd9@btinternet.com>=0A>Subject: Zenith-List: Re: (no subject)=0A>To: zeni
th-list@matronics.com=0A>Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 4:24 PM=0A>--> Zen
ith-List message posted by: "flyingmike9" <mikelloyd9@btinternet..com>=0A>
=0A> =0A>=0A>it looks to more like the sports cruiser=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>mad
e in the czw factory that the 601xl uesd to be built in=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>
=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>Read this topic online here:=0A>=0A> =0A>=0A>h
ttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p===========
======== =0A> =C2-=0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?
Zenith-List=0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/cont
=========================0A
==
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