---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 02/25/10: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:13 AM - Re: Q&A FAA Special Review Team Report - Zodiac 601XL/650 (Warni (Scotsman) 2. 10:50 AM - Re: Re: Q&A FAA Special Review Team Report - Zodiac 601XL/650 (W (Rick Lindstrom) 3. 03:34 PM - Re: Q&A FAA Special Review Team Report - Zodiac 601XL/650 (W (dougsire) 4. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: () 5. 08:07 PM - "You can't fight city hall" (aprazer) 6. 09:46 PM - Re: "You can't fight city hall" (purplemoon99@bellsouth.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:10 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Q&A FAA Special Review Team Report - Zodiac 601XL/650 (Warni From: "Scotsman" I certainly hope so too. My upgrade kit has arrived in South Africa yesterday (awaiting collection) and I believe that the modifications contained therein talk to the issues raised by the various agencies. With cognisance of the various recommendations I am comfortable to fly in a modified XL....though it would be "nice" to have the FAA's blessing! -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288187#288187 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:37 AM PST US From: Rick Lindstrom Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Q&A FAA Special Review Team Report - Zodiac 601XL/650 (W Hi, Paul... You just said: "Maybe if we don't discuss the fatal design flaws the problems will all go away . . ." I can't tell you how disappointed I am that you're still fanning the flames of no confidence among the Zenith community, in spite of numerous public and private discussions on this matter. I understand your sarcasm and weak attempt at humor, but for those of us who just want the straight skinny without hyperbole, your claim of "fatal design flaw" does nothing to advance the issue to the point of intellectual resolution leading to renewed confidence in our airplanes. What "flaw" are you referring to? Unless I'm completely brain dead, my recollection is that, with all of the exhaustive testing and investigation performed to date, no single "smoking gun" has been found with the 601XL design. What we do know is that a variety of factors can add up in flight to cause airframe failures in a very predictable way with very similar results. Without a specific causal factor to address, Zenith has done the next best thing and provided a comprehensive upgrade kit that provides a shotgun approach to all the possible contributing factors to these failures, including steps to counteract sloppy maintenance (slack aileron cables) and even poor pilot technique (overstressing airframe by exceeding design limitations). And while we're in the neighborhood, we get to beef up the main spar and the aileron system as a hedge against them becoming a factor in the failure sequence. A little late to the party, the FAA has weighed in with their assessment and recommendations recently, well after all the sturm and drang. But this is the way it should be with experimental aviation, where the freedoms are immense but the ultimate responsibility for airworthiness of any E-AB airplane rests with the individual builder. I really don't think we want the FAA taking drastic steps to impose certified standards in an experimental world. Chris Heintz has maintained all along that the 601XL design is safe if flown and maintained properly. I think he's right. But the other side of the coin is that the 601XL is definitely not overbuilt, as most certified aircraft are, and is intolerant (in its original form) of airframe overstresses and a casual approach to maintenance. So I have to ask, Paul. What possible good comes from tossing out phrases like "fatal design flaws" when no such thing has been found after all the investigation by multiple parties? Rick Lindstrom ZenVair 601XL N42KP ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Q&A FAA Special Review Team Report - Zodiac 601XL/650 (W From: "dougsire" Wull gee Rick. The FAA report indicated that they "identified several significant issues with the manufacturer's structural loads analysis." And (among other things) that "the loads used by the manufacturer to design the wing structure did not meet the ASTM standard for a 1,320 lb aircraft". Pretty easy to describe those as design flaws. And people died because the aircraft broke up. I think that's what fatal means. Put them together and you have "fatal design flaws". -------- Doug Sire 601XL Do Not Archive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288217#288217 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:27 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Yeah=2C somebody should point out to him that our limit over here is 1320 p ounds. Paul R From: LHusky@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Yea=2C I just got the same email. Writing the check now!!!! LOL!!!! do not archive In a message dated 2/24/2010 6:21:49 P.M. Pacific Standard Time=2C bootless @earthlink.net writes: (sigh) I guess the scammers who have hacked people's Facebook accounts have moved to email lists for builders. do not archive Ben Ramler wrote: > > How are you=2CI hope all is well at home and work=2CI'm writing you this with tears in my eyes=2Cas many of you have not responded to my last email and i guess you don't seem to be of help after when i told you about my dif ficulties here in United Kingdomi write to let you know i misplaced my wall et on my way heading back to my hotel room from the Starbucks coffee shop.P resently i have limited access to internet and would like you to assist me with a loan of 1=2C540 Pounds to sort-out my hotel bills and to get myself back home because my wallet consist of all my money=2Cphone=2Cdiary and my boarding pass(Return Ticket). > > I have spoken to the embassy here but they are not responding to matters effectively=2CI'll Refund the money back to you as soon as i'm back home=2C I would have love you to call me but don't have a phone where i can be reac hed. > let me know if you can be of any help=2CI will appreciate whatever you ca n afford to assist me with=2C do get back to me immediately as you receive this email in order for me to let you know where to send the money. > > > I know this email sounds strange but i did send it > > Thanks > Ben > > > ======================= = the ties Day =================== ==== - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======== =============== - List Contributio n Web Site sp=3B =========== ============== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:36 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: "You can't fight city hall" From: "aprazer" Ladies and Gents, Reading everyone's comments about what should be done to put the XLs/650s on sound footing and how it should be done -- shows great concern. I think that you all will agree with me that the Heintzs have performed to the utmost of their ability! It sounds like these tasks, litigation, etc., has strained their financial position. Now the FAA is asking for more blood? There is an old adage that states "You can't fight city hall" -- the FAA being city hall. We need someone with lots of horsepower and expertise to advise and ramrod this project. He/she won't be cheap! Also, I agree that in order to placate the FAA another airframe will have to be destroyed in testing. The successful outcome of this project will benefit us all because we'll have product that can be flown, sold without a heavy financial loss and liability, plus the Heintzs will remain in business to support us. There are many 601/650 drivers that have offered, on this site as well as the Zenith Aero, monetary support and willingness to act as gophers in getting this problem resolved! This is going to cost a lot of money! I, for one, will throw my hat in the ring to volunteer as a gopher (if needed) and will support the cause financially. Mack Kreizenbeck -------- The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=288254#288254 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:46:46 PM PST US From: "purplemoon99@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: "You can't fight city hall" I'am in,Ill help.JoeN101HD601XL=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________________ ___=0AFrom: aprazer =0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com =0ASent: Thu, February 25, 2010 11:06:15 PM=0ASubject: Zenith-List: "You ca azer@cableone.net>=0A=0ALadies and Gents,=0AReading everyone's comments abo ut what should be done to put the XLs/650s on sound footing and how it shou ld be done -- shows great concern.=0AI think that you all will agree with m e that the Heintzs have performed to the utmost of their ability! It sounds like these tasks, litigation, etc., has strained their financial position. =0ANow the FAA is asking for more blood?=0AThere is an old adage that state s "You can't fight city hall" -- the FAA being city hall.=0AWe need someone with lots of horsepower and expertise to advise and ramrod this project. =0AHe/she won't be cheap!=0AAlso, I agree that in order to placate the FAA another airframe will have to be destroyed in testing.=0AThe successful out come of this project will benefit us all because we'll have product that ca n be flown, sold without a heavy financial loss and liability, plus the Hei ntzs will remain in business to support us.=0AThere are many 601/650 driver s that have offered, on this site as well as the Zenith Aero, monetary supp ort and willingness to act as gophers in getting this problem resolved!=0AT his is going to cost a lot of money!=0AI, for one, will throw my hat in the ring to volunteer as a gopher (if needed) and will support the cause finan cially.=0AMack Kreizenbeck=0A=0A--------=0AThe poh-oh-unemployed farm boy f rom Idaho=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.mat -======================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.