Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:28 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (sdthatcher)
2. 09:48 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
3. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 10:34 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (a.f.rupp@att.net)
5. 11:09 AM - Re: upholstery (Scotsman)
6. 11:14 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
7. 11:42 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
8. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
9. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
10. 12:10 PM - Hardware question (Beckman, Rick)
11. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (a.f.rupp@att.net)
12. 01:21 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
13. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (JohnDRead@aol.com)
14. 02:28 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
15. 02:44 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
16. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (n801bh@netzero.com)
17. 03:28 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
18. 04:04 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
19. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (afterfxllc@aol.com)
20. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (n801bh@netzero.com)
21. 08:07 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Hi Sabrina,
Great to hear you are going forward with your strut idea. Where did you say you
were attaching the fuselage portion of the strut? And did your calculations
show a significant reduction in compression near the root when using the strut?
Sorry my wings are apart in NC and I'm in south Florida working on the center
spar so I can't answer your question at this time. Thanks for your input
and innovative ideas.
Scott
Sabrina wrote:
> Hey guys I am about to open up my wings between nose rib 5 and nose rib 6 to
install mounts for my external main spar struts. As I remember, the solid rivets
are pitched 40mm on center.
>
> Could someone tell me the actual distance between the driven rivets on the forward
side of their main spar? (i.e. the space available on the front spar doublers
between rivets) (As I recall, -5s are used that far outboard, so there
is more space than further inboard where -6 rivets were used)
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> Sabrina
--------
Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL
601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA
N601EL, EAA203 42 hours and climbing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294173#294173
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
the key to my design is that the struts do little (imparting only small forces
upon the fuselage or the other strut) until needed (other than create drag and
add weight)... they will float inside a 4130 saddle bolted to the the main gear
uprights and the canopy/engine mounts... their length is controlled by a
fork (Piper AD version) and eye bolt at each end... my fuselage at that point
is nearly 2 thick with AL/8 pound two part foam/AL... that continues into a 1
1/2 thick arch over the panel, an arch of foam sandwich in the turtle deck as
well as the cockpit floor. The stress reduction at the root will be controlled
by the fine tuning of the forks. The key is that I can measure the compression
and tension during test flights because I will have two eye bolts protruding
into the canopy just under my canopy eject pins. Like a flying 601XL wing
lab... :O)
I will post more pictures as my progress continues... the forks just arrived
from aircraft spruce today....
guys... I could really use that main spar rivet to rivet measurement between NR5&6...
my shop is in Chicago and the airplane is in Aurora.... I would like to
trim the outboard spar mounts at home, prime them and have them ready to install
at the airport...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294192#294192
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0104_127.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Hi Sabrina,
I wonder who will do the flight testing on your new airplane design . . .
Paul
XL installing upgrade kit
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:47 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
the key to my design is that the struts do little (imparting only small forces
upon the fuselage or the other strut) until needed (other than create drag and
add weight)... they will float inside a 4130 saddle bolted to the the main gear
uprights and the canopy/engine mounts... their length is controlled by a
fork (Piper AD version) and eye bolt at each end... my fuselage at that point
is nearly 2 thick with AL/8 pound two part foam/AL... that continues into a 1
1/2 thick arch over the panel, an arch of foam sandwich in the turtle deck as
well as the cockpit floor. The stress reduction at the root will be controlled
by the fine tuning of the forks. The key is that I can measure the compression
and tension during test flights because I will have two eye bolts protruding
into the canopy just under my canopy eject pins. Like a flying 601XL wing
lab... :O)
I will post more pictures as my progress continues... the forks just arrived
from aircraft spruce today....
guys... I could really use that main spar rivet to rivet measurement between NR5&6...
my shop is in Chicago and the airplane is in Aurora.... I would like to
trim the outboard spar mounts at home, prime them and have them ready to install
at the airport...
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Sabrina,
See attached. The spacing is 40mm along the whole wing except just inboard
of rib 6 where the pitch is 20 where the front spar doubler ends 1465 from
the root. One extra rivet each side of doubler end.
Al Rupp
Lake Placid NY
N765AR 601XL
-------------- Original message from "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>: --
------------
> Hey guys I am about to open up my wings between nose rib 5 and
nose rib 6 to install mounts for my external main spar struts. A
s I remember, the solid
> rivets are pitched 40mm on center.
> Could someone tell me the actual distance between the driven rivets on th
e forward side of their main spar? (i.e. the space available on the front s
par doublers between rivets) (As I recall, -5s are used that far outboard,
so there
> is more space than further inboard where -6 rivets were used)
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> Sabrina
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294103#294103
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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Although if your seat is burning you are probably stuffed anyway!
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294205#294205
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
40 on center, what is the distance between the rivets, as installed... I think
they are -5 at that point, but I don't remember if the head is forward or aft
and what diameter the rivet is after being installed...
so, I need the space remaining on the forward doubler, it should be somewhere between
1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inches... I could use an accurate measurement rather than
a citation to the plans... the plans don't tell you the installed diameter
of the rivet...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294206#294206
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Paul...
it all depends upon the timing of the flights... right now it would be asking
too much of Jay to sign me off for such flights, I turn 17 in early June so at
that point I can fly the Sabrina all I want with a private pilot certificate...
I hope to have it ready to fly in May... June at the latest...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294208#294208
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
The head of rivets and bolts should always be in the direction of flight
whenever possible.
It is much easier to rivet if the head is forward and the bucked end is
aft.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Sabrina,
Instead of reinventing the wheel why don't you take a ride in an upgraded
601? I can tell you from doing 4 upgrades from sloppy builds to great
builds that I have found no abnormalities in any of the wings or center
sections.
When you taxi a upgraded 601 it just feels stronger and is quieter also.
After seeing what I have seen I am convinced we had some kind of catastrophic
failure (most likely flutter) and I think we have corrected the issue and
more.
We haven't found any smoking guns after dozens of 601's have been torn down
other than elongated holes which would just mean the wing was stressed
from over g's.
This is just my opinion and not intended to start a debate
Jeff
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| Subject: | Hardware question |
When I began my project, my tech counselor, Jim Miller,
2006 Tony Bengalis award winner, told me that hardware went into the
plane IN, BACK, and DOWN. 99% of the time this is what I did. Holds
true for the rivets, too.
Rick
DO NOT ARCHIVE
The head of rivets and bolts should always be in the direction of flight
whenever possible.
It is much easier to rivet if the head is forward and the bucked end is
aft.
Jeff
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...
CH says the design is fine as is, the FAA says it is 25% underdesigned...
if I were to tear the spars apart, I would do a Piper LSA upgrade and increase
the doublers by 50%...
my design allows the CH design to work as designed, the struts only kick in if
it does not...
the struts will slow the aircraft down, but that should only help to prevent any
flutter...
does anyone have the distance/space between the main spar -5 rivet heads on the
forward main spar doublers available to post? (not the distance on center)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294229#294229
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
It would be a good idea for you to read Chris Heintz book then you more
educated on aircraft design than you would like us to think you are
presently. But then since you think you know it all his book might be beneath
you.
Regards, John Read
CH701 Colorado
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
John... sorry to offend you... I tried to design something that was minimally
invasive to the original design... the design in plan #6331 dated 08/05 that,
to this day CH says is OK...
if I was sure that CH redesigned this upgrade in all its aspects, I might have
installed it... I just got cold feet after I ordered it... just something...
I can't explain it....
the one aspect my design has that the Zenith upgrade and Piper LSA don't, is the
ability to monitor the compression and tension on the struts in flight. And,
if those spars start flexing beyond limits, you will hear the saddle limits
being engaged well before it would be time to eject...
sorry you took offense, the one thing I do know is how little I know... but the
scary thing is how people who do know listen to their lawyers over their better
judgment...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294241#294241
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
P.S. Does anyone have a main spar laying around they could measure for me? Please?
P.P.S. Dear John... a better book than CH's is Bruhn's Analysis & Design of Flight
Vehicle Structures... a little bit more expensive at $100 used (original
cost new was $17 back in the day) but well worth it...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294249#294249
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
I know of at least 10 people who would love to read his book............
...............
Unfortunatly they are DEAD... Killed by a CH601XL........
Next question please.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: JohnDRead@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
It would be a good idea for you to read Chris Heintz book then you more
educated on aircraft design than you would like us to think you are pres
ently. But then since you think you know it all his book might be beneat
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Ben,
I bet you can answer this... what is the diameter of an AN-470-AD-5 rivet head?
After installation, is the head enlarged? Is the diameter of the bucking bar
side of the rivet larger than the factory head?
If so, what is its diameter...
I can work up the distance from those numbers on my own...
(The Piper fork called for a 1 1/2 x 1/4 mount, I have to trim this bar so it fits
between two of the -5 rivets, I would like to trim it at home rather than
at the airport).
Thank you,
Sabrina
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294255#294255
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
>>We haven't found any smoking guns after dozens of 601's have been torn down other
than elongated holes which would just mean the wing was stressed from over
g's.<<
Jeff,
Negative or positive "over g's" from what you have seen in your upgrades?
Do you think, in a flutter scenario you suggest, the wing fails first in negative
gs?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294259#294259
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Sabrina
I haven't seen any hole damage in the 6 aircraft I am working on. I was re
ferring to the people that have reported elongated holes.
And I guess to know if it was + or - G's you would have to know which way
the elongation is
either up or down.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Sabrina <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2010 7:04 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
>>We haven't found any smoking guns after dozens of 601's have been torn
down
ther than elongated holes which would just mean the wing was stressed from
over
's.<<
Jeff,
Negative or positive "over g's" from what you have seen in your upgrades?
Do you think, in a flutter scenario you suggest, the wing fails first in
egative gs?
ead this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294259#294259
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
I will measure one tomorrow and post it for ya.
do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
Ben,
I bet you can answer this... what is the diameter of an AN-470-AD-5 riv
et head?
After installation, is the head enlarged? Is the diameter of the bucki
ng bar side of the rivet larger than the factory head?
If so, what is its diameter...
I can work up the distance from those numbers on my own...
(The Piper fork called for a 1 1/2 x 1/4 mount, I have to trim this bar
so it fits between two of the -5 rivets, I would like to trim it at home
rather than at the airport).
Thank you,
Sabrina
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294255#294255
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Ben, you are so kind... but AL beat you to it... thank you so much for offering...
:O)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294283#294283
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