---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/14/10: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:28 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (sdthatcher) 2. 09:48 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 3. 10:11 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 10:34 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (a.f.rupp@att.net) 5. 11:09 AM - Re: upholstery (Scotsman) 6. 11:14 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 7. 11:42 AM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 8. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 9. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 10. 12:10 PM - Hardware question (Beckman, Rick) 11. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (a.f.rupp@att.net) 12. 01:21 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 13. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (JohnDRead@aol.com) 14. 02:28 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 15. 02:44 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 16. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (n801bh@netzero.com) 17. 03:28 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 18. 04:04 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) 19. 05:03 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (afterfxllc@aol.com) 20. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (n801bh@netzero.com) 21. 08:07 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:21 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "sdthatcher" Hi Sabrina, Great to hear you are going forward with your strut idea. Where did you say you were attaching the fuselage portion of the strut? And did your calculations show a significant reduction in compression near the root when using the strut? Sorry my wings are apart in NC and I'm in south Florida working on the center spar so I can't answer your question at this time. Thanks for your input and innovative ideas. Scott Sabrina wrote: > Hey guys I am about to open up my wings between nose rib 5 and nose rib 6 to install mounts for my external main spar struts. As I remember, the solid rivets are pitched 40mm on center. > > Could someone tell me the actual distance between the driven rivets on the forward side of their main spar? (i.e. the space available on the front spar doublers between rivets) (As I recall, -5s are used that far outboard, so there is more space than further inboard where -6 rivets were used) > > Thank you so much! > > Sabrina -------- Scott Thatcher, Palm Beach Gardens, FL 601XL with Corvair, Registered as E-LSA N601EL, EAA203 42 hours and climbing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294173#294173 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:09 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" the key to my design is that the struts do little (imparting only small forces upon the fuselage or the other strut) until needed (other than create drag and add weight)... they will float inside a 4130 saddle bolted to the the main gear uprights and the canopy/engine mounts... their length is controlled by a fork (Piper AD version) and eye bolt at each end... my fuselage at that point is nearly 2 thick with AL/8 pound two part foam/AL... that continues into a 1 1/2 thick arch over the panel, an arch of foam sandwich in the turtle deck as well as the cockpit floor. The stress reduction at the root will be controlled by the fine tuning of the forks. The key is that I can measure the compression and tension during test flights because I will have two eye bolts protruding into the canopy just under my canopy eject pins. Like a flying 601XL wing lab... :O) I will post more pictures as my progress continues... the forks just arrived from aircraft spruce today.... guys... I could really use that main spar rivet to rivet measurement between NR5&6... my shop is in Chicago and the airplane is in Aurora.... I would like to trim the outboard spar mounts at home, prime them and have them ready to install at the airport... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294192#294192 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc_0104_127.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:59 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question Hi Sabrina, I wonder who will do the flight testing on your new airplane design . . . Paul XL installing upgrade kit -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:47 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question the key to my design is that the struts do little (imparting only small forces upon the fuselage or the other strut) until needed (other than create drag and add weight)... they will float inside a 4130 saddle bolted to the the main gear uprights and the canopy/engine mounts... their length is controlled by a fork (Piper AD version) and eye bolt at each end... my fuselage at that point is nearly 2 thick with AL/8 pound two part foam/AL... that continues into a 1 1/2 thick arch over the panel, an arch of foam sandwich in the turtle deck as well as the cockpit floor. The stress reduction at the root will be controlled by the fine tuning of the forks. The key is that I can measure the compression and tension during test flights because I will have two eye bolts protruding into the canopy just under my canopy eject pins. Like a flying 601XL wing lab... :O) I will post more pictures as my progress continues... the forks just arrived from aircraft spruce today.... guys... I could really use that main spar rivet to rivet measurement between NR5&6... my shop is in Chicago and the airplane is in Aurora.... I would like to trim the outboard spar mounts at home, prime them and have them ready to install at the airport... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:48 AM PST US From: a.f.rupp@att.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601XL main spar question Sabrina, See attached. The spacing is 40mm along the whole wing except just inboard of rib 6 where the pitch is 20 where the front spar doubler ends 1465 from the root. One extra rivet each side of doubler end. Al Rupp Lake Placid NY N765AR 601XL -------------- Original message from "Sabrina" : -- ------------ > Hey guys I am about to open up my wings between nose rib 5 and nose rib 6 to install mounts for my external main spar struts. A s I remember, the solid > rivets are pitched 40mm on center. > Could someone tell me the actual distance between the driven rivets on th e forward side of their main spar? (i.e. the space available on the front s par doublers between rivets) (As I recall, -5s are used that far outboard, so there > is more space than further inboard where -6 rivets were used) > > Thank you so much! > > Sabrina > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294103#294103 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: upholstery From: "Scotsman" Although if your seat is burning you are probably stuffed anyway! -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294205#294205 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:50 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" 40 on center, what is the distance between the rivets, as installed... I think they are -5 at that point, but I don't remember if the head is forward or aft and what diameter the rivet is after being installed... so, I need the space remaining on the forward doubler, it should be somewhere between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 inches... I could use an accurate measurement rather than a citation to the plans... the plans don't tell you the installed diameter of the rivet... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294206#294206 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:42:38 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" Paul... it all depends upon the timing of the flights... right now it would be asking too much of Jay to sign me off for such flights, I turn 17 in early June so at that point I can fly the Sabrina all I want with a private pilot certificate... I hope to have it ready to fly in May... June at the latest... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294208#294208 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:23 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question The head of rivets and bolts should always be in the direction of flight whenever possible. It is much easier to rivet if the head is forward and the bucked end is aft. Jeff ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:46 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question Sabrina, Instead of reinventing the wheel why don't you take a ride in an upgraded 601? I can tell you from doing 4 upgrades from sloppy builds to great builds that I have found no abnormalities in any of the wings or center sections. When you taxi a upgraded 601 it just feels stronger and is quieter also. After seeing what I have seen I am convinced we had some kind of catastrophic failure (most likely flutter) and I think we have corrected the issue and more. We haven't found any smoking guns after dozens of 601's have been torn down other than elongated holes which would just mean the wing was stressed from over g's. This is just my opinion and not intended to start a debate Jeff ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:11 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Hardware question From: "Beckman, Rick" When I began my project, my tech counselor, Jim Miller, 2006 Tony Bengalis award winner, told me that hardware went into the plane IN, BACK, and DOWN. 99% of the time this is what I did. Holds true for the rivets, too. Rick DO NOT ARCHIVE The head of rivets and bolts should always be in the direction of flight whenever possible. It is much easier to rivet if the head is forward and the bucked end is aft. Jeff ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:58 PM PST US From: a.f.rupp@att.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:21 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me... CH says the design is fine as is, the FAA says it is 25% underdesigned... if I were to tear the spars apart, I would do a Piper LSA upgrade and increase the doublers by 50%... my design allows the CH design to work as designed, the struts only kick in if it does not... the struts will slow the aircraft down, but that should only help to prevent any flutter... does anyone have the distance/space between the main spar -5 rivet heads on the forward main spar doublers available to post? (not the distance on center) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294229#294229 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:15 PM PST US From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question It would be a good idea for you to read Chris Heintz book then you more educated on aircraft design than you would like us to think you are presently. But then since you think you know it all his book might be beneath you. Regards, John Read CH701 Colorado ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" John... sorry to offend you... I tried to design something that was minimally invasive to the original design... the design in plan #6331 dated 08/05 that, to this day CH says is OK... if I was sure that CH redesigned this upgrade in all its aspects, I might have installed it... I just got cold feet after I ordered it... just something... I can't explain it.... the one aspect my design has that the Zenith upgrade and Piper LSA don't, is the ability to monitor the compression and tension on the struts in flight. And, if those spars start flexing beyond limits, you will hear the saddle limits being engaged well before it would be time to eject... sorry you took offense, the one thing I do know is how little I know... but the scary thing is how people who do know listen to their lawyers over their better judgment... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294241#294241 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:27 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" P.S. Does anyone have a main spar laying around they could measure for me? Please? P.P.S. Dear John... a better book than CH's is Bruhn's Analysis & Design of Flight Vehicle Structures... a little bit more expensive at $100 used (original cost new was $17 back in the day) but well worth it... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294249#294249 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:17 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question I know of at least 10 people who would love to read his book............ ............... Unfortunatly they are DEAD... Killed by a CH601XL........ Next question please. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: JohnDRead@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question It would be a good idea for you to read Chris Heintz book then you more educated on aircraft design than you would like us to think you are pres ently. But then since you think you know it all his book might be beneat ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ====================== ____________________________________________________________ Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat! http://www.netzero.net/freeemail?refcd=NZTAGOUT1FREM0210 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" Ben, I bet you can answer this... what is the diameter of an AN-470-AD-5 rivet head? After installation, is the head enlarged? Is the diameter of the bucking bar side of the rivet larger than the factory head? If so, what is its diameter... I can work up the distance from those numbers on my own... (The Piper fork called for a 1 1/2 x 1/4 mount, I have to trim this bar so it fits between two of the -5 rivets, I would like to trim it at home rather than at the airport). Thank you, Sabrina Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294255#294255 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:04:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" >>We haven't found any smoking guns after dozens of 601's have been torn down other than elongated holes which would just mean the wing was stressed from over g's.<< Jeff, Negative or positive "over g's" from what you have seen in your upgrades? Do you think, in a flutter scenario you suggest, the wing fails first in negative gs? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294259#294259 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: afterfxllc@aol.com Sabrina I haven't seen any hole damage in the 6 aircraft I am working on. I was re ferring to the people that have reported elongated holes. And I guess to know if it was + or - G's you would have to know which way the elongation is either up or down. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Sabrina Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2010 7:04 pm Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question >>We haven't found any smoking guns after dozens of 601's have been torn down ther than elongated holes which would just mean the wing was stressed from over 's.<< Jeff, Negative or positive "over g's" from what you have seen in your upgrades? Do you think, in a flutter scenario you suggest, the wing fails first in egative gs? ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294259#294259 ======================== =========== -= - The Zenith-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:33 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question I will measure one tomorrow and post it for ya. do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Sabrina" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question Ben, I bet you can answer this... what is the diameter of an AN-470-AD-5 riv et head? After installation, is the head enlarged? Is the diameter of the bucki ng bar side of the rivet larger than the factory head? If so, what is its diameter... I can work up the distance from those numbers on my own... (The Piper fork called for a 1 1/2 x 1/4 mount, I have to trim this bar so it fits between two of the -5 rivets, I would like to trim it at home rather than at the airport). Thank you, Sabrina Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294255#294255 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4bc67ee778cf826021st02vuc ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question From: "Sabrina" Ben, you are so kind... but AL beat you to it... thank you so much for offering... :O) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294283#294283 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.