Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:14 AM - Re: First Flight (Ken)
2. 08:23 AM - Re: Any Suggestions on a A&P PRep Course? (zman601xl@aol.com)
3. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (zman601xl@aol.com)
4. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (Bill Pagan)
5. 09:57 AM - Chat Reminder For "Digesters" (George Race)
6. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: 601XL main spar question (zman601xl@aol.com)
7. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: First Flight (Peter W Johnson)
8. 08:10 PM - Re: 601XL main spar question (Sabrina)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
It sounds like you have the identical prop I'm putting on an O-235. What is your
pitch setting? I set mine at 12 degrees but have no idea if I'm even in the
ball park.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294664#294664
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Any Suggestions on a A&P PRep Course? |
Jeff,
You might want to give this guy a call.His name is Ron Ciura.His phone# is
585-496-7390(think it's still a good one).His E-mail address is Magman3
66@earthlink.net
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey J Paris <jeffrey-j-paris@excite.com>
Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 5:01 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: Any Suggestions on a A&P PRep Course?
Hello Listers,
In the process of building two amateur built experimentals, which are a Ze
nith Zodiac CH601XL and currently finishing up a Europa Monowheel Classic
I have accrued enough hours to convince my local FSDO to sign off on tak
ing the Airframe and Powerplant exams. Does anyone out in internet airpla
ne building land know of or can vouch for a quality A&P preparation course
to satisfy all 3 parts of the FAA A&P requirements i.e., written, oral an
d practical tests? Prefereably somewhere close to Rochester, NY if possib
le?
Thanks for your time and consideration.
Jeff Paris
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
I've often wondered why the Zenith demo airplane with 1300 hours on it di
d not have any sign of failure when they took it apart? My belief also is
that there might have been builder error in some of these breakups.Just
an opinion(you know what they say about opinions.....they are like armpit
s,everybody has a couple ,and some stink).I do remember a post awhile back
that said that they had finished the wing portion of the upgrade,and it
took about 5 manhours to do a wing .Anyways, I'm working on installing th
e upgrade now.I'll say this I really like the new(.125 thick) aft wing to
spar attach point.I always thought the original was not beefy enough.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 11:44 am
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
Hi Bryan,
I believe you are correct when you refuse to rule out pilot error as cause
for all the XL breakups. Indeed, there has never been a determination, by
the accident investigation experts, of any probable cause for these
accidents.
The problem I have with blaming all this on pilot error is:
1. It is too convenient. The pilots are all dead and unable to defend
themselves or their actions. This makes them easy targets for those who
prefer to stay "In Denial" that there is actually a design problem with th
e
XL.
2. It doesn't make sense for me that only Zodiac XLs attract pilots prone
to errors that remove the wings from their planes. The Zodiac XL is the
only design that has experienced multiple accidents of this, or any, type
among LSA in the last few years. Out of hundreds of designs flying today
only this one has experienced unexplained in-flight structure failures.
Indeed the failures all amounted to the wings coming off at the root.
3. It doesn't provide any useful solutions to the problem. If the whole
cause for these accidents is pilot error then the only remedial action tha
t
would help would be to find better pilots to fly Zodiac XLs. Perhaps a
special pilot's license is called for?
4. I find it odd, perhaps incredible, that the agencies that nearly alway
s
find pilot error as the cause for any accident they investigate have never
found pilot error to be even a consideration in all these accidents. Only
the designer and companies that make their living from selling these plane
s
has taken a public position that pilot error, or maintenance problems, are
behind all the deaths.
So, while I agree with you that we cannot eliminate pilot error from the
cause of any of the XL accidents I think blaming the whole problem on
unfortunate pilot actions is nothing short of absurd "Denial".
Paul
XL installing upgrade
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
The Yuba city crash did NOT happen in straight and level flight. The radar
track clearly shows maneuvering flight just before the break-up. The radar
showed a climb followed by a fairly rapid descent just before the break-up
.
The accident report shows a failure in negative G loading. Maybe the pilot
pushed the nose over suddenly to avoid a bird strike. Or maybe he had a
sudden medical problem. We'll never know for sure.
Why do you keep denying the possibility of pilot error in these accidents?
It's a fact that pilot error is a factor in more accidents than all other
causes combined. It is an especially prevalent problem for low time pilots
with low time in type. Low time in type seems to be about the only common
thread in these accidents, along with low time on the airframe.
On Apr 16, 2010, at 9:37 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
My first wing took many more than 5 hours but the 2nd wing is going much fa
ster.- =0A=0AOn another note I'm-wondering why the factory 601 didn't s
how-up at Sun-N-Fun.- Might have given a lot of people a great peace of
mind to see it make a long trip.- The only 601 there (I was only there o
n Saturday)-looked like it was an AMD but I could be wrong.- I only saw
the 750 factory plane at their display and a couple-701's (One with a co
rvair and one-with Gus pushing his engine).- There was also a customer
801 there that was for sale for $100K plus.- Sure would like to have seen
the factory 601 on the field.- I also didn't see a single 601 parked in
the experimental parking area on Saturday.=0A-Bill Pagan =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "zman601xl@aol.com" <zman601
xl@aol.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, April 18, 2010 11:
33:32 AM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question=0A=0AI've
often wondered why the Zenith demo airplane with 1300 hours on it did not
have any sign of failure when they took it apart? My belief also is that th
ere might have been- builder error in some of these breakups.Just an opin
ion(you know what they say about opinions.....they are like armpits,everybo
dy has a couple ,and some stink).I do remember a post awhile back that said
that they had finished the wing portion of the upgrade,and it took about 5
manhours to do a wing .Anyways, I'm working on installing the upgrade now.
I'll say this I really like the new(.125 thick) aft wing to spar attach poi
nt.I always thought the original was not beefy enough.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----O
riginal Message-----=0AFrom: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>=0ATo: zenith-list@m
atronics.com=0ASent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 11:44 am=0ASubject: RE: Zenith-List:
aul Mulwitz" <psm@att.net>=0A=0A=0A=0AHi Bryan,=0A=0A=0A=0AI believe you ar
e correct when you refuse to rule out pilot error as cause=0A=0Afor all the
XL breakups. Indeed, there has never been a determination, by=0A=0Athe ac
cident investigation experts, of any probable cause for these=0A=0Aaccident
s.=0A=0A=0A=0AThe problem I have with blaming all this on pilot error is:
=0A=0A=0A=0A1. It is too convenient. The pilots are all dead and unable t
o defend=0A=0Athemselves or their actions. This makes them easy targets fo
r those who=0A=0Aprefer to stay "In Denial" that there is actually a design
problem with the=0A=0AXL.=0A=0A2. It doesn't make sense for me that only
Zodiac XLs attract pilots prone=0A=0Ato errors that remove the wings from t
heir planes. The Zodiac XL is the=0A=0Aonly design that has experienced mu
ltiple accidents of this, or any, type=0A=0Aamong LSA in the last few years
. Out of hundreds of designs flying today=0A=0Aonly this one has experienc
ed unexplained in-flight structure failures.=0A=0AIndeed the failures all a
mounted to the wings coming off at the root.=0A=0A3. It doesn't provide an
y useful solutions to the problem. If the whole=0A=0Acause for these accid
ents is pilot error then the only remedial action that=0A=0Awould help woul
d be to find better pilots to fly Zodiac XLs. Perhaps a=0A=0Aspecial pilot
's license is called for?=0A=0A4. I find it odd, perhaps incredible, that
the agencies that nearly always=0A=0Afind pilot error as the cause for any
accident they investigate have never=0A=0Afound pilot error to be even a co
nsideration in all these accidents. Only=0A=0Athe designer and companies t
hat make their living from selling these planes=0A=0Ahas taken a public pos
ition that pilot error, or maintenance problems, are=0A=0Abehind all the de
aths.=0A=0A=0A=0ASo, while I agree with you that we cannot eliminate pilot
error from the=0A=0Acause of any of the XL accidents I think blaming the wh
ole problem on=0A=0Aunfortunate pilot actions is nothing short of absurd "D
enial".=0A=0A=0A=0APaul=0A=0AXL installing upgrade=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A-----Or
iginal Message-----=0A=0AFrom: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com=0A=0A
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
=0A=0ASent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:00 AM=0A=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.c
om=0A=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question=0A=0A=0A=0A-
=0A=0A=0A=0AThe Yuba city crash did NOT happen in straight and level flight
. The radar=0A=0Atrack clearly shows maneuvering flight just before the bre
ak-up. The radar=0A=0Ashowed a climb followed by a fairly rapid descent jus
t before the break-up.=0A=0AThe accident report shows a failure in negative
G loading. Maybe the pilot=0A=0Apushed the nose over suddenly to avoid a b
ird strike. Or maybe he had a=0A=0Asudden medical problem. We'll never know
for sure.=0A=0A=0A=0AWhy do you keep denying the possibility of pilot erro
r in these accidents?=0A=0AIt's a fact that pilot error is a factor in more
accidents than all other=0A=0Acauses combined. It is an especially prevale
nt problem for low time pilots=0A=0Awith low time in type. Low time in type
seems to be about the only common=0A=0Athread in these accidents, along wi
th low time on the airframe.=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Apr 16, 2010, at 9:37 AM, n801bh
@netzero.com wrote:=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A========
====0A=0A target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith
-List=0A=0A=====================
================0A=0Attp://forums.matronics.c
om=0A=0A======================
===============0A=0A"_blank">http://www.matroni
cs.com/contribution=0A=0A================
=====================0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
======================0A=0A=0A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Chat Reminder For "Digesters" |
Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT
www.mykitairplane.com <blocked::http://www.mykitairplane.com/>
Check out my line of items for Experimental Airplane Builders
My Products: www.mykitairplane.com/Products/
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
Hi Bill,
I'm well into the first wing upgrade,and it's going ok..I know one thing
when I do the second one the leading edge skin is coming off.It will be
a lot easier on my back......Smile.I've got to call Zenith.I only receive
d six -3 & six -4 stiffeners for the nose ribs.Problem is I've got the ear
ly kit with 4 nose ribs on each side.
Bob Haring
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Pagan <bill.pagan@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 18, 2010 10:54 am
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
My first wing took many more than 5 hours but the 2nd wing is going much
faster.
On another note I'm wondering why the factory 601 didn't show up at Sun-N-
Fun. Might have given a lot of people a great peace of mind to see it mak
e a long trip. The only 601 there (I was only there on Saturday) looked
like it was an AMD but I could be wrong. I only saw the 750 factory plan
e at their display and a couple 701's (One with a corvair and one with Gus
pushing his engine). There was also a customer 801 there that was for sa
le for $100K plus. Sure would like to have seen the factory 601 on the fi
eld. I also didn't see a single 601 parked in the experimental parking ar
ea on Saturday.
Bill Pagan
From: "zman601xl@aol.com" <zman601xl@aol.com>
Sent: Sun, April 18, 2010 11:33:32 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
I've often wondered why the Zenith demo airplane with 1300 hours on it did
not have any sign of failure when they took it apart? My belief also is
that there might have been builder error in some of these breakups.Just
an opinion(you know what they say about opinions.....they are like armpit
s,everybody has a couple ,and some stink).I do remember a post awhile back
that said that they had finished the wing portion of the upgrade,and it
took about 5 manhours to do a wing .Anyways, I'm working on installing th
e upgrade now.I'll say this I really like the new(.125 thick) aft wing to
spar attach point.I always thought the original was not beefy enough.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Sent: Fri, Apr 16, 2010 11:44 am
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
Hi Bryan,
I believe you are correct when you refuse to rule out pilot error as cause
for all the XL breakups. Indeed, there has never been a determination, by
the accident investigation experts, of any probable cause for these
accidents.
The problem I have with blaming all this on pilot error is:
1. It is too convenient. The pilots are all dead and unable to defend
themselves or their actions. This makes them easy targets for those who
prefer to stay "In Denial" that there is actually a design problem with th
e
XL.
2. It doesn't make sense for me that only Zodiac XLs attract pilots prone
to errors that remove the wings from their planes. The Zodiac XL is the
only design that has experienced multiple accidents of this, or any, type
among LSA in the last few years. Out of hundreds of designs flying today
only this one has experienced unexplained in-flight structure failures.
Indeed the failures all amounted to the wings coming off at the root.
3. It doesn't provide any useful solutions to the problem. If the whole
cause for these accidents is pilot error then the only remedial action tha
t
would help would be to find better pilots to fly Zodiac XLs. Perhaps a
special pilot's license is called for?
4. I find it odd, perhaps incredible, that the agencies that nearly alway
s
find pilot error as the cause for any accident they investigate have never
found pilot error to be even a consideration in all these accidents. Only
the designer and companies that make their living from selling these plane
s
has taken a public position that pilot error, or maintenance problems, are
behind all the deaths.
So, while I agree with you that we cannot eliminate pilot error from the
cause of any of the XL accidents I think blaming the whole problem on
unfortunate pilot actions is nothing short of absurd "Denial".
Paul
XL installing upgrade
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2010 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: 601XL main spar question
The Yuba city crash did NOT happen in straight and level flight. The radar
track clearly shows maneuvering flight just before the break-up. The radar
showed a climb followed by a fairly rapid descent just before the break-up
.
The accident report shows a failure in negative G loading. Maybe the pilot
pushed the nose over suddenly to avoid a bird strike. Or maybe he had a
sudden medical problem. We'll never know for sure.
Why do you keep denying the possibility of pilot error in these accidents?
It's a fact that pilot error is a factor in more accidents than all other
causes combined. It is an especially prevalent problem for low time pilots
with low time in type. Low time in type seems to be about the only common
thread in these accidents, along with low time on the airframe.
On Apr 16, 2010, at 9:37 AM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote:
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
========================
===========
ttp://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
"_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
ator?Zenith-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/
N->;
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: First Flight |
Ken,
I originally had it setup with 15 degrees of pitch which equated to 56
inches of pitch. After some testing, I have adjusted it back to 11 degrees
of pitch. I did a flight test just prior to the last adjustment and things
are much better. I hope to get a flight test today to confirm the 11 degrees
is good.
When I ordered the prop from Warp Drive, they suggested a 68 inch was a good
cruise prop, with a 66 inch being better in climb. Certainly a shorter prop
will give more rpm at static.
Cheers
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Monday, 19 April 2010 1:14 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First Flight
It sounds like you have the identical prop I'm putting on an O-235. What is
your pitch setting? I set mine at 12 degrees but have no idea if I'm even
in the ball park.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294664#294664
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 601XL main spar question |
taking a break before my Calc-based Physics E&M test on Monday...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=294769#294769
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