---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/21/10: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:04 AM - Upgrade extras? (Richard Vetterli) 2. 09:10 AM - Upgrade extras? (Richard Vetterli) 3. 09:44 AM - Re: Upgrade extras? (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 11:46 AM - Re: Upgrade extras? (Gary Ray) 5. 01:20 PM - Re: Upgrade extras? (Terry Phillips) 6. 02:48 PM - Re: Upgrade extras? (Ron Lendon) 7. 03:17 PM - Re: Upgrade extras? () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:10 AM PST US From: Richard Vetterli Subject: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? A question for those who have completed their upgrade. Did you find that you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit? L-Angles? Rivets? Nut/bolts? Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our upgrades together and want to be prepared. Thanks, Rich Vetterli 601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL) Pleasanton, CA Check out my progress at: www.n56dv.blogspot.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:07 AM PST US From: Richard Vetterli Subject: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? A question for those who have completed their upgrade. Did you find that you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit? L-Angles? Rivets? Nut/bolts? Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our upgrades together and want to be prepared. Thanks, Rich Vetterli 601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL) Pleasanton, CA Check out my progress at: www.n56dv.blogspot.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:07 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? Hi Rich, I haven't completed my upgrade yet, but there is one parts related issue I am wondering about. The upgrade kit provides hard aircraft rivets for the main wing spar. I know from a small amount of experience that I just don't get along with vibrating rivet guns. So I am not sure how I will go about dealing with this part of the upgrade. One note in the upgrade drawing package includes the notion that it is OK to replace these rivets with similar sized AN bolts. This would probably mean 50 or 100 AN3 bolts and nuts. I'm not sure what the length would be. Fortunately, AN bolts are easy to get from A/S or other normal suppliers with little delay. Another choice is to farm out the rivet setting. I have been looking around for "Suckers" to do this, but have not yet found a good candidate. As usual with ZAC drawings, you need to be careful to be sure you understand the desired outcome before drilling any holes for a given part. This may be even more true since the drawings are not drawn in the same style as the main drawing package. If you follow the directions you are likely to get in trouble. Good luck, Paul XL installing upgrade -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Vetterli Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:55 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? A question for those who have completed their upgrade. Did you find that you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit? L-Angles? Rivets? Nut/bolts? Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our upgrades together and want to be prepared. Thanks, Rich Vetterli 601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL) Pleasanton, CA Check out my progress at: www.n56dv.blogspot.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:50 AM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? I found that I went thru about 1000 A-4 and 1000 A-5 rivets. The kit comes with 700 of each. Also there are not very many extra solid rivets and you will likely need to drill out a few that didn't turn out the way you wanted. You will need a small amount of 0.040 to make a few additional angle supports or if you mess one up. And if your aircraft does not have L-angle in the rear fuselage to prevent oil-canning, they don't come with the kit and also need additional rivets. Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Vetterli" Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? > > > A question for those who have completed their upgrade. Did you find that > you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit? L-Angles? > Rivets? Nut/bolts? Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our > upgrades together and want to be prepared. > Thanks, > Rich Vetterli > 601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL) > Pleasanton, CA > Check out my progress at: www.n56dv.blogspot.com > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:41 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? Rich & Paul I would suggest that you do not go the AN3 bolt route. The problem with replacing the 3/16" rivets with AN bolts is that the holes from the 3/16" rivets are substantially larger than the dia. of AN3's. On my spar caps, the rivet holes will accept a #9 drill, measured dia. 0.191", so the hole dia. is >= 0.191. The AN3's supplied with my upgrade kit measure 0.183" or at least 0.008" smaller than the hole diameter. AC 43.13-1B provide guidance on bolt hole diameters: >>7-39. BOLT FIT. Bolt holes, particularly >>those of primary connecting elements, have >>close tolerances. Generally, it is permissible to >>use the first-lettered drill size larger than the >>nominal bolt diameter, except when the AN >>hexagon bolts are used in light-drive fit >>(reamed) applications and where NAS close- >>tolerance bolts or AN clevis bolts are used. A This would suggest a #10 hole for an AN3 bolt, but, since my 0.183 dia. AN3's are smaller than the minimum specified diameter for an AN3, a #11 or #12 might be more appropriate for these particular AN3's. My understanding is that too large a bolt hole make the joint susceptible to fatigue failure by concentrating the shear forces onto a point rather than spreading the forces around the circumference of the hole. Apparently, the tighter the fit, the better the joint. I asked Zenith about the problem with reference to the specified AN3's in the spar root doubler, and the answer was: >>>Hi Terry, >>> >>>If the holes are larger than a 3/16 I make them 1/4 bolt size. >>> >>>Roger So, I have ordered AN4's from Spruce to replace the AN3's supplied with my upgrade kit. But I only plan to use bolts in the specified locations on the spar root doubler plate and the outboard end of the extruded angle. Note that the AN3 at the outboard end is not a problem, because it is replacing a 5/32" rivet. The hole can be reamed to 0.1875 and fit snugly on an AN3 bolt. The advantage of the rivets is that the shanks expand to fill the hole, thus spreading the shear load to the full circumference of the hole. I have not been able to consistently set 3/16" rivets with my 3X rivet gun, so I am going to use a tool borrowed from an RV-4 builder that uses a ram driven by a hammer to set the rivets. Four hard hits with 4# sledge gives perfect shop heads, consistently. I can use the tool because I could still disassemble my wing completely. The tool would not work on a wing with the ribs attached. Other builders have reported success with 4X rivet guns. I suspect that someone more skilled than I could drive 3/16" rivets successfully with a 3X gun--I just know that the best I ever did was 10 good sets out of 12 tries on my practice bars. If I was going to use a rivet gun, I'd buy or borrow a 4X gun and practice with that a while. Regarding extra materials, I'm planning to put in the diagonal L-angles in the rear fuselage like the 650, so I fab'd a bunch of L-angle using Craig Payne's clever bending die. Other extras that I bought were some 3/16" and 5/32" solid rivets from Spruce and some aluminum bars to practice riveting. I didn't want to learn to rivet on my spar. Details on the L-angle fab and the rivet tool can be seen on my kitlog site (link below). Good luck with your upgrades. Terry At 09:28 AM 4/21/2010 -0700, Paul wrote: >Hi Rich, > >I haven't completed my upgrade yet, but there is one parts related issue I >am wondering about. > >The upgrade kit provides hard aircraft rivets for the main wing spar. I >know from a small amount of experience that I just don't get along with >vibrating rivet guns. So I am not sure how I will go about dealing with >this part of the upgrade. > >One note in the upgrade drawing package includes the notion that it is OK to >replace these rivets with similar sized AN bolts. This would probably mean >50 or 100 AN3 bolts and nuts. I'm not sure what the length would be. >Fortunately, AN bolts are easy to get from A/S or other normal suppliers >with little delay. > >Another choice is to farm out the rivet setting. I have been looking around >for "Suckers" to do this, but have not yet found a good candidate. > >As usual with ZAC drawings, you need to be careful to be sure you understand >the desired outcome before drilling any holes for a given part. This may be >even more true since the drawings are not drawn in the same style as the >main drawing package. If you follow the directions you are likely to get in >trouble. > >Good luck, > >Paul >XL installing upgrade > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard >Vetterli >Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:55 AM >To: Matronics Zenith >Subject: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? > > >A question for those who have completed their upgrade. Did you find that >you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit? L-Angles? >Rivets? Nut/bolts? Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our >upgrades together and want to be prepared. >Thanks, >Rich Vetterli >601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL) >Pleasanton, CA Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Upgrade extras? From: "Ron Lendon" Just finished one and was short A-5 rivets and a few bolts and washers all AN3 variety. Setting the solid rivets requires the bucking bar to be 5lbs or more to gain satisfactory results. A bar that weighs less might look like it works but it really doesn't set inside the hole as tight as the 5lbs bar does. I tested this by setting and removing the rivets using different weight bars and a cleco rivet gun. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=295159#295159 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:29 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? Hi Paul, I got my upgrade with AN bolts instead of rivets. When I went to pick up the kit I mentioned how enthusiastic I was about driving those rivets, and how I'd rather use ANs. No problem. They put together a bag of ANs for the wings. They hadn't figured out how many for the spar carry-thru yet, but that is probably a known number by now. They subtract the cost of the rivets, add the cost of the ANs, and VIOLA, a much easier upgrade. Costs more, saves much anguish. Call Shirley and just tell her what you want.. Paul R. ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:28 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? > Hi Rich, I haven't completed my upgrade yet, but there is one parts related issue I am wondering about. The upgrade kit provides hard aircraft rivets for the main wing spar. I know from a small amount of experience that I just don't get along with vibrating rivet guns. So I am not sure how I will go about dealing with this part of the upgrade. One note in the upgrade drawing package includes the notion that it is OK to replace these rivets with similar sized AN bolts. This would probably mean 50 or 100 AN3 bolts and nuts. I'm not sure what the length would be. Fortunately, AN bolts are easy to get from A/S or other normal suppliers with little delay. Another choice is to farm out the rivet setting. I have been looking around for "Suckers" to do this, but have not yet found a good candidate. As usual with ZAC drawings, you need to be careful to be sure you understand the desired outcome before drilling any holes for a given part. This may be even more true since the drawings are not drawn in the same style as the main drawing package. If you follow the directions you are likely to get in trouble. Good luck, Paul XL installing upgrade -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Vetterli Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:55 AM To: Matronics Zenith Subject: Zenith-List: Upgrade extras? > A question for those who have completed their upgrade. Did you find that you needed any parts that were not included in the upgrade kit? L-Angles? Rivets? Nut/bolts? Rick Lindstrom and I are getting ready to start our upgrades together and want to be prepared. Thanks, Rich Vetterli 601XL/Corvair (after the upgrade, I think I'll call it a 601XXL) Pleasanton, CA Check out my progress at: www.n56dv.blogspot.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.