---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/11/10: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:25 AM - Re: First flight of N316JL (Klaus Truemper) 2. 04:52 AM - Re: First flight of N316JL (Michel Therrien) 3. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. (Paul Mulwitz) 4. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL (Jerry Latimer) 5. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. (Jerry Latimer) 6. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. (FLYaDIVE) 7. 10:44 AM - Seats for 601 B (AZFlyer) 8. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. (Bryan Martin) 9. 01:32 PM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. (Jerry) 10. 03:06 PM - Re: First flight of N316JL (Klaus Truemper) 11. 05:43 PM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL (Jerry) 12. 06:09 PM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL (n801bh@netzero.com) 13. 09:12 PM - Re: Re: First flight of N316JL (Jerry) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:09 AM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Hi Jerry, Congratulations!! Left wing heavy: When you look out of the cockpit onto the left wing, how far down must the aileron be relative to the trailing edge, for wings level? This can be measured twice, once in level flight, say at cruise speed, and once with engine at idle rpm and best glide. The test will give an idea of the effect of engine torque, and also will tell how much is caused by the uneven weight distribution with pilot in left seat. You could compare this with the numbers by other HDS builders. I have not looked at this recently for my plane, but would guess that for cruise, the left aileron is down 1 to 1 1/2 inches, and in glide about half of that. Best wishes, Klaus ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:19 AM PST US From: Michel Therrien Subject: Re: Zenith-List: First flight of N316JL Congragulation Jerry! It seems that many builders had this left wing issue. In my case, I made a new rear spar attachment plate to move the hole somewhat and change the incidence of the wing. Michel do not archive ---------------------------- Michel Therrien CH601-HD, C-GZGQ http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601 http://pages.infinit.net/mthobby --- On Sat, 7/10/10, Jerry wrote: > From: Jerry > Subject: Zenith-List: First flight of N316JL > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Received: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 11:48 AM > Jerry > > N316JL (CH601HDS w/912ULS) took to the air this morning. > She made one exciting trip around the circuit. Ran out of > aileron trim trying trim out a left turning tendency. Had > fumes in the cockpit from what appeared to be oil. Oil > temps and pressure were good. After landing inspection > showed no oil leaks. Must be the new burning off the > exhaust system. Landing was uneventful, actually one of > the best Ive made. This was probably due to the amount > of concentration I was giving to the flight at the time. > > Thanks to Don Honabach letting me have some stick time in > HDS a week ago. Without this time the flight could have > been a lot more exciting. > > This has been a 10 year 10 month adventure from the rudder > the workshop to the first flight. Im still flying > high. Now to start working on the new punch list of > things to do. > > Jerry > > > Email Forum - > FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:17 AM PST US From: "Paul Mulwitz" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. Hi Jerry, This message from Klaus Truemper made me wonder - did you mount your engine aligned with the fuselage centerline? Or, did you angle it one way or the other to deal with torque? Paul XL - doing upgrade From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Klaus Truemper Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 4:15 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Hi Jerry, Congratulations!! Left wing heavy: When you look out of the cockpit onto the left wing, how far down must the aileron be relative to the trailing edge, for wings level? This can be measured twice, once in level flight, say at cruise speed, and once with engine at idle rpm and best glide. The test will give an idea of the effect of engine torque, and also will tell how much is caused by the uneven weight distribution with pilot in left seat. You could compare this with the numbers by other HDS builders. I have not looked at this recently for my plane, but would guess that for cruise, the left aileron is down 1 to 1 1/2 inches, and in glide about half of that. Best wishes, Klaus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:21 AM PST US From: "Jerry Latimer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Klaus, Thanks I don't really know the answer to your questions, but they give me some things to look at. I was too concerned about the fumes and wanted to get back on the ground to check it out. I was able to control the airplane with the aileron trim and holding quite a bit of right aileron pressure. I weigh about 220 lbs, so I knew I my body mass would have an affect on a 625 lb airplane's trim. During the next flight I hope to get a better handle on the heavy left wing. I plan on filling the right wing tank to see what that does the balance of the airplane. Jerry _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Klaus Truemper Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 4:15 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Hi Jerry, Congratulations!! Left wing heavy: When you look out of the cockpit onto the left wing, how far down must the aileron be relative to the trailing edge, for wings level? This can be measured twice, once in level flight, say at cruise speed, and once with engine at idle rpm and best glide. The test will give an idea of the effect of engine torque, and also will tell how much is caused by the uneven weight distribution with pilot in left seat. You could compare this with the numbers by other HDS builders. I have not looked at this recently for my plane, but would guess that for cruise, the left aileron is down 1 to 1 1/2 inches, and in glide about half of that. Best wishes, Klaus Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 12:59:00 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:42 AM PST US From: "Jerry Latimer" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. I used the stock Zenith supplied Rotax bed mount. During the take off roll, I do have to hold right rudder pressure which I didn't expect. I was too busy with the fumes to really notice any trim changes as I changed throttle setting. More things to do during the upcoming flights. Jerry flying at last _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 7:29 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. Hi Jerry, This message from Klaus Truemper made me wonder - did you mount your engine aligned with the fuselage centerline? Or, did you angle it one way or the other to deal with torque? Paul XL - doing upgrade From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Klaus Truemper Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 4:15 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Hi Jerry, Congratulations!! Left wing heavy: When you look out of the cockpit onto the left wing, how far down must the aileron be relative to the trailing edge, for wings level? This can be measured twice, once in level flight, say at cruise speed, and once with engine at idle rpm and best glide. The test will give an idea of the effect of engine torque, and also will tell how much is caused by the uneven weight distribution with pilot in left seat. You could compare this with the numbers by other HDS builders. I have not looked at this recently for my plane, but would guess that for cruise, the left aileron is down 1 to 1 1/2 inches, and in glide about half of that. Best wishes, Klaus http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution 12:59:00 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. From: FLYaDIVE Klaus: Who cares what the deflection is in glide - That makes NO difference when you are FLYING S&L. It is in S&L that you want the plane to be trimmed out. And it makes NO difference when in glide... If it is off - What are you going to do? Wing Walk to improve trim deflection? Jerry: May I add to the kudos - Congratulations - Ata-Boy. The questions that should be prevalent are: 1 - Did you build the plane to spcs assuming that the specs are correct? 2 - Did you have Full / Equal Fuel in both tanks? Personally I do not believe in Equal - I want Full! Equal is a judgement call and full is a up-to- the-brim call. 3 - Is the panel mounted square - If so where is the Slip-Slide indicator? Does is have the Ball Centered when in S&L? If the Ball is off: Check your rigging. Check your rudder. Check your Rudder trim tab. 4 - There is SOooooo much more to check as far as fixed and movable surfaces go... But let's ASS UME there are no dimples, warps, wrinkles, or mis-matched parts... Saw one plane with an aileron ... two - Ailerons installed up-side down. did not matter much until you went to turn. 5 - This is a BIGGIE - I do not recall what plane you are flying... Does it have FLAPS? I worked on an RV-6 that kept rolling to the right. I check & measured everything. well everything except the flaps till the very end. I found that in deployment they were EQUAL. At each three second deployment they were equal. BUT - When fully retracted one was higher than the other. They did not seat EQUALLY in the retracted position. Fuselage was off and BONDO was used BUT not SMOOTHLY or EQUALLY. Fixed that and problem solved. O! One other thing I checked and if you can do so... 6 - Do a W&B on EACH WHEEL. I found that there was a 50 Lb difference on the mains. SOOoooo here is another test/solution:- 7 - You want the trim tabs to as straight back as possible to reduce parasitic drag. IF you find a weight difference that can be corrected GREAT! If you can't think about adding a SMALL amount of weight to the lifting wing tip. This is a last on a list of things to try. 8 - I hate to say this - Because we are ALL such GREAT pilots. But, are your skills up to holding a plane S&L for 5 minutes to verify the rolling tendency? Could the roll be pilot induced? HELL - You just spend most of the past few years BUILDING and not FLYING! My old instructor (73) and friend. Told me - You can only be really good in one thing at a time. "Either you are a Great mechanic or a Great pilot." Let's hear how and what you did to resolve the problem. Barry On Sun, Jul 11, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > Hi Jerry, > > > This message from Klaus Truemper made me wonder - did you mount your engine > aligned with the fuselage centerline? Or, did you angle it one way or the > other to deal with torque? > > > Paul > > XL - doing upgrade > > > *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Klaus Truemper > *Sent:* Sunday, July 11, 2010 4:15 AM > *To:* Matronics Zenith > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL > > > Hi Jerry, > > Congratulations!! > > Left wing heavy: When you look out of the cockpit onto the left > wing, how far down must the aileron be relative to the trailing > edge, for wings level? This can be measured twice, once in level > flight, say at cruise speed, and once with engine at idle rpm and > best glide. > > The test will give an idea of the effect of engine torque, and > also will tell how much is caused by the uneven weight distribution with > pilot in left seat. You could compare this with the numbers by other HDS > builders. > I have not looked at this recently for my plane, but would guess that > for cruise, the left aileron is down 1 to 1 1/2 inches, and in glide about > half of that. > > Best wishes, > > Klaus > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://forums.matronics.com* > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > ** > > * * > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:44:01 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Seats for 601 B From: "AZFlyer" List, Does anybody know of other suppliers of seats (finished) for 601XL? I know FlightCrafters in FL. Any others? Thanks, Mike Upgrade finished...yuck! -------- Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com 601 XL, 3300, Dynon Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=304475#304475 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. From: Bryan Martin Do you have any kind of seal on the nose wheel steering actuator slots? You could be getting some smell coming in through there. On Jul 11, 2010, at 10:39 AM, Jerry Latimer wrote: > I used the stock Zenith supplied Rotax bed mount. During the take off roll, I do have to hold right rudder pressure which I didn't expect. I was too busy with the fumes to really notice any trim changes as I changed throttle setting. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:32:30 PM PST US From: Jerry Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL - engine mount question. Bryan, I used some engine baffling material on the nose wheel push rods, but there is still leakage in the slit. Jerry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:23 PM PST US From: Klaus Truemper Subject: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Hi Jerry, I did a test flight today to confirm how far the left aileron must be turned down in level flight. The number I gave this morning is way too large. According to the test flight, the left aileron is turned down approx. 1/2 inch for level flight in cruise. Thus, that 1/2 inch handles both the single pilot in the left seat and the torque produced by the Rotax engine. Hope this helps. Happy flying, Klaus ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:29 PM PST US From: Jerry Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Klaus, Thanks My plan right now is to double check the aileron rigging again. If both are in line with the top of the wing, then I will shorten the left pushrod a couple of turns and lengthen the right pushrod a couple of turns, and then test fly it again. The left aileron trim tab was at a pretty steep up angle and It almost had the left turn tendency trimmed out. I will measure the tab angle and then see if my adjustments to pushrod length are having any affect. I don't want to make too big of an adjustment at any one time. Jerry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:43 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL shortening one pushrod and lengthening the other will probably only chan ge the position of your stick in flight, not correct the heavy wing. YMM V do not archive Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Jerry Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL Klaus, Thanks My plan right now is to double check the aileron rigging again. If both are in line with the top of the wing, then I will shorten the left push rod a couple of turns and lengthen the right pushrod a couple of turns, and then test fly it again. The left aileron trim tab was at a pretty s teep up angle and It almost had the left turn tendency trimmed out. I w ill measure the tab angle and then see if my adjustments to pushrod leng th are having any affect. I don't want to make too big of an adjustment at any one time. Jerry ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ Project Management Cert Villanova PMP® & CAPM® Classes. Average Salary For PMPs is $100K http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4c3a6aed820e71f27f2st06vuc ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:56 PM PST US From: Jerry Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: First flight of N316JL I agree Ben. I thought about what I said after I hit the send. I will need to increase the width of my existing trim tab or attach a bent stationary tab on the opposing aileron. 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