---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/31/10: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:24 AM - Zenith Down (Bill Naumuk) 2. 07:48 AM - Re: 601 down in Washington (John Edwards) 3. 03:20 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. (n801bh@netzero.com) 4. 04:58 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Jeff) 5. 05:32 PM - Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Sabrina) 6. 05:40 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. (Bryan Martin) 7. 07:31 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Jeff) 8. 07:43 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. (n801bh@netzero.com) 9. 08:03 PM - Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues (Sabrina) 10. 08:59 PM - Re: Upgrade question ref. 6-ZU-4-1 (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:42 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith Down All- In light of the report that there were two people aboard the FIRST FLIGHT of an experimental, I'd take any media report concerning this or any other aircraft accident with a BIG grain of salt. From my area: A couple of years ago there was a fatal accident at the airport in Dart, N.Y. The TV talking head said the cause was engine failure. The accompanying video footage showed the wreckage of a Schweitzer glider. Last week there was a fatal accident at the Franklin, Pa. Regional Airport, involving a "Nadiq" experimental aircraft. If anyone has a link on the design, please share it with everyone around here. do not archive Bill Naumuk Townville, Pa. HDS N601MG/Corvair 95% ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:05 AM PST US From: John Edwards Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 601 down in Washington I shared a few laughs and discussions with the pilot who died in this 601 in the weeks prior to the accident. He had some issues with the oil and the prop(an electric reversible type). He spent several hours taxing back and forth and seemed to have resolved any issues that had given him any concern. He had a bottle of champagne ready to celebrate the conclusion of his flight. Yes the plane had not flown for years, but it seemed he had meticulously checked everything out with his A&P who spent many hours along side him in preparation for the flight. The article in KOMO news does not mention the whole story about how he was observed at a high angle of attack wallowing around before striking the ground and cartwheeling to a stop. I will not speculate as to the cause, but it seems the engine was still running from lack of any reports that it was not by witnesses. I shared a hanger with Mr Mc Donald and he will be greatly missed! John Edwards at mykitlog.com/kapowsin ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:20:12 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy, BU T... I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. Abou t half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 8 01 builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since lea rned is was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier mod. 1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a 601XL. 2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a homebu ilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a facto ry one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot er ror and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documente d with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the same failu re repeated itself. Hhmmm. I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on post ed topics. Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith b ooth at Osh. Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably. For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in cl aiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has d ecades of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are in denial of the facts. So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed w hy has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that mat ter, for two years? What's their concern? Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated on e, side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and future customers minds. Comments guys and gals .... ?? do not archive m> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u pdate issues. et> Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely usel ess email train. Congratulations! Jeff Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl updat e issues. Mr. Davidson, in my defense Col. Russ Schleeh says: "check 6, she is a charger" Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try... Hugs to Jim & Paul... Paul... see you today? Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ____________________________________________________________ TODAY: iPads for $23.74? SPECIAL REPORT: iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off! http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4c54a074963421740e0st05vuc ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:41 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. Ben, The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of the XL accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a valuable place in our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH owes them a refund because the design is short of the claims: that has not been shown to my satisfaction. Clearly, something has been happening with the XL. People have died. But the cause has still not been clearly identified. To claim otherwise is just unethical, juvenile, sophomoric, or whatever. The upgrade package is a shotgun approach based on the lack of an identified single cause. Most people accept the upgrade package as resulting in an acceptable design. Sometimes in life there is no clear answer to our questions. I don't see any use in furthering this discussion. This is old stuff. Let's move on. Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles? Jeff _____ From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy, BUT... I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. About half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 801 builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since learned is was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier mod. 1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a 601XL. 2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a homebuilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a factory one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot error and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documented with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the same failure repeated itself. Hhmmm. I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on posted topics. Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith booth at Osh. Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably. For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in claiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has decades of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are in denial of the facts. So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed why has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that matter, for two years? What's their concern? Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated one, side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and future customers minds. Comments guys and gals .... ?? do not archive m> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely useless email train. Congratulations! Jeff Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. Mr. Davidson, in my defense Col. Russ Schleeh says: "check 6, she is a charger" Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try... Hugs to Jim & Paul... Paul... see you today? Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791 _================================================bsp; - List Contribution Web Site - TODAY: iPads for $23.74? SPECIAL REPORT: iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off! ctips.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. From: "Sabrina" Ben, Sorry I missed you! I am back in Chicago. Maybe the next time I head to Sturgis I will stop by. You have a very good point. I too, was looking forward to seeing the B version at Air Venture 2010. Jeff, I was joking at the 10% refund. Please dont take my words out of context. Before you ask to move on, remember, you are the one who moved this discussion to the Zenith list and got Ben and the other 700/800 series builders involved. Jim, Thank you. I will be in Vegas on the 14th. Hope to be in CA on the 17th. Paul, Get off the Internet for a bit and go catch the first night time air show! JLScott, Thank you. Karl, Hugs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306989#306989 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:18 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. It is still possible to break an airplane while flying below Va. Va is the speed at which, if the gust induced or control input induced rate of change of angle of attack is below a defined maximum value, the wing will stall before its maximum structural loading is exceeded. Flying below Va does not mean that you can move the controls abruptly from stop to stop or make large control deflections around more than one axis without damaging the airframe. See: http://www.flyingmag.com/myth-maneuvering-speed On Jul 31, 2010, at 6:14 PM, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: > > 2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a homebuilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a factory one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot error and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documented with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the same failure repeated itself. Hhmmm. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus re-drive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:41 PM PST US From: "Jeff " Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. Sabrina, I guess that I'm just tired of your jokes. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:32 PM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. Ben, Sorry I missed you! I am back in Chicago. Maybe the next time I head to Sturgis I will stop by. You have a very good point. I too, was looking forward to seeing the B version at Air Venture 2010. Jeff, I was joking at the 10% refund. Please dont take my words out of context. Before you ask to move on, remember, you are the one who moved this discussion to the Zenith list and got Ben and the other 700/800 series builders involved. Jim, Thank you. I will be in Vegas on the 14th. Hope to be in CA on the 17th. Paul, Get off the Internet for a bit and go catch the first night time air show! JLScott, Thank you. Karl, Hugs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306989#306989 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:50 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. Hi Jeff.... We are all in the Zenith family in one way or another so a healthy debat e that might prevent future fatalities in my mind is constructive. Email me directly on your troubles with the 3300 air plenum issues. If I can help fabricate something I will. Roger Lambert sent this to my personal email so I wll post it to the lis t as he asked. ? Perhaps the reason you get a cool reception is you post messages wi th incorrect statements of fact. Zenith has displayed a 601xl at Lakelan d each of the last two years as well as other airshows, including the LS A in Sebring. You can post your retraction in the same forum as the ori ginal. Roger Lambert. I said Osh and other airshows. You can pick and choose you comments as y ou feel the need to position your case, BUT. Osh is the biggest show for experimentals so my question still exists. Why not display a 601/650 ????????????? Your turn sir. Ben. st@matronics.com> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u pdate issues. Ben, The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of the XL accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a valu able place in our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH owe s them a refund because the design is short of the claims: that has not been shown to my satisfaction. Clearly, something has been happening wi th the XL. People have died. But the cause has still not been clearly identified. To claim otherwise is just unethical, juvenile, sophomoric, or whatever. The upgrade package is a shotgun approach based on the la ck of an identified single cause. Most people accept the upgrade packag e as resulting in an acceptable design. Sometimes in life there is no c lear answer to our questions. I don't see any use in furthering this di scussion. This is old stuff. Let's move on. Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles? Jeff From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-s erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM ice:smarttags" />zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u pdate i ssues. Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy, BU T... I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. Abou t half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 8 01 builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since lea rned is was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier mod. 1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a 601XL. 2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a homebu ilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a facto ry one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot er ror and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documente d with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the same failu re repeated itself. Hhmmm. I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on post ed topics. Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith b ooth at Osh. Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably. For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in cl aiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has d ecades of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are in denial of the facts. So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed w hy has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that mat ter, for two years? What's their concern? Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated on e, side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and future customers minds. Comments guys and gals .... ?? do not archive m> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u pdate issues. et> Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely usel ess email train. Congratulations! Jeff Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl updat e issues. Mr. Davidson, in my defense Col. Russ Schleeh says: "check 6, she is a charger" Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try... Hugs to Jim & Paul... Paul... see you today? Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791 _=======================bs p; - List Contribution Web Site - http://www.generalaviationnews.com/?p=15659 Should comment 2 be retracted or updated? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307007#307007 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:24 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Upgrade question ref. 6-ZU-4-1 From: "Ron Lendon" Mike, You have to have the cables attached and tensioned before you can trim the bracket correctly. As I remember, the angle of movement of the ailerons is 11.5 degrees up and 11.5 degrees down. I used a digital level when setting the stop at the aileron, 11.5 degrees down from neutral. The control stop at the stick will stop the up motion of the ailerons. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307014#307014 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.