Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:33 AM - Chat Room Comments (George Race)
2. 08:40 AM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. (Rick Lindstrom)
3. 08:42 AM - Re: Upgrade question ref. 6-ZU-4-1 (AZFlyer)
4. 02:40 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Gary Ray)
5. 03:13 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues. (Rick Lindstrom)
6. 07:22 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ssues. (n801bh@netzero.com)
7. 08:42 PM - Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i ss... (JohnDRead@aol.com)
8. 11:05 PM - Official Zenith-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
9. 11:10 PM - Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Chat Room Comments |
Hello to all:
Hope many of you have had a great adventure to the annual Oshkosh happening.
Some have flamed me, both publicly and privately, for cluttering up the
"List" with my weekly Chat Room reminder messages. Some of you have told me
that it really serves no purpose other than giving me a place to talk about
and advertise my products. Some of you have expressed how much you enjoy
the chat room.
The chat room has been going on for over two years, and there have been a
lot of collective users. Some are very regular and hardly ever miss; others
have stopped by from time to time. It is a great place to bring up thoughts
and ideas about building your Zenith Airplane. Over the past months many
suggested solutions to questions ask have been offered. It is also a great
place to find out, in a 1 on 1 type of situation, how your friends build is
progressing.
For the last two weeks I have not sent out any Chat Room notices. For the
last two weeks no one has shown up for the Monday evening chat room, other
than me. I know that Oshkosh takes a lot of you away from your keyboard and
screen. For others this is also family vacation time of year.
I guess it is time to ask some questions about the chat room operation.
Is it time to abandon the chat room?
Should the chat room continue but maybe at a different day and time?
Is there a problem with the format of the chat room?
Any comments and suggestions will be appreciated, both publically and
private.
My direct email address is: George@MrRace.Com if you wish to comment
directly to me.
This is also a reminder that the Chat Room will be open for business, Monday
evening, August 2nd, and 8:00 Eastern Time.
Hope to see many of you there and hear about your Oshkosh adventures!
George
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update |
i ssues.
I asked Sebastien yesterday the very same thing about why no 601xl at OSH, Ben.
According to him, there WAS supposed to be a modded 601XL here, but it was weathered
out earlier in the week and the owner decided to bag the trip entirely.
We've already done the modification for one 601 in our shop, and the second is
pretty close to completion. Even before flight test, it's pretty apparent that
the structures have been beefed up considerably. The added rigidity is hard to
miss.
My personal opinion is that Zenith has taken a real belt AND suspenders approach
to the modifications, addressing pretty much everything that MIGHT possibly
have been a contributing factor to the overstress and / or flutter issues in the
original design.
I'll know more once I start flying mine again.
Rick Lindstrom
Zenvair 601XLB N42KP
-----Original Message-----
From: "n801bh@netzero.com"
Sent: Jul 31, 2010 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i
ssues.
Hi Jeff....
We are all in the Zenith family in one way or another so a healthy debate that
might prevent future fatalities in my mind is constructive. Email me directly
on your troubles with the 3300 air plenum issues. If I can help fabricate something
I will.
Roger Lambert sent this to my personal email so I wll post it to the list as he
asked.
?
Perhaps the reason you get a cool reception is you post messages with incorrect
statements of fact. Zenith has displayed a 601xl at Lakeland each of the last
two years as well as other airshows, including the LSA in Sebring. You can post
your retraction in the same forum as the original.
Roger Lambert.
I said Osh and other airshows. You can pick and choose you comments as you feel
the need to position your case, BUT. Osh is the biggest show for experimentals
so my question still exists.
Why not display a 601/650 ?????????????
Your turn sir.
Ben.
st@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
Ben,
The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of the XL
accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a valuable place in
our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH owes them a refund because
the design is short of the claims: that has not been shown to my satisfaction.
Clearly, something has been happening with the XL. People have died.
But the cause has still not been clearly identified. To claim otherwise is just
unethical, juvenile, sophomoric, or whatever. The upgrade package is a shotgun
approach based on the lack of an identified single cause. Most people accept
the upgrade package as resulting in an acceptable design. Sometimes in life
there is no clear answer to our questions. I don't see any use in furthering
this discussion. This is old stuff. Let's move on.
Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles?
Jeff
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update i
ssues.
Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy, BUT...
I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. About half
way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 801 builders were
quite concerned is an understatement. We have since learned is was pilot error
breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier mod.
1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a 601XL.
2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a homebuilt airframe
and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a factory one fail in
the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot error and they flew it
too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documented with radar returns that
show the speed was below VA and the same failure repeated itself. Hhmmm.
I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on posted topics.
Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith booth at
Osh.
Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably.
For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in claiming
there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has decades of engineering
experience so he is right and others are wrong are in denial of the facts.
So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed why has
Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that matter, for two
years? What's their concern?
Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated one, side
by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and future customers
minds.
Comments guys and gals .... ??
do not archive
m>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update issues.
Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely useless
email train. Congratulations!
Jeff
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update
issues.
Mr. Davidson, in my defense
Col. Russ Schleeh says:
"check 6, she is a charger"
Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try...
Hugs to Jim & Paul...
Paul... see you today?
Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Upgrade question ref. 6-ZU-4-1 |
Ron,
Appreciate your reply on my question. When I spoke with Caleb couple weeks ago
he explained that everybody needed to remove different amounts from the 50mm
slot after installing wings/cables. My aileron stops (at the rear spar) are set
carefully at dwg. specs.
My question is more one of a survey as to what amount of material people are having
to remove (if any) from the 50mm slot after installing wings/cables?
Thanks again,
Mike
--------
Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
601 XL-B, 3300, Dynon
Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=307047#307047
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update |
issues.
I was invited to bring my 601XL-B to the Corvair booth Mon...Thur.
I tried to bring it in on Sun afternoon, the 25th, but the airport had
re-closed during the 5 hours it took me to get there.
Two other major airports were also closed due to saturation parking
problems. Outagamie (KATW) and Fond du Lac (KFLD)
I landed on a 20 x 2400 foot paved strip at Brennand Airport (K79C), 10
north of Oshkosh.
They were very nice, $10/day tie-down fee, honor system if manager not
around, 100LL available with assistance and a very pretty setting.
It turned out that my brother lived 3 miles down the road. Other Oshkosh
bound pilots also kindly offered me a ride.
Again, I was not allowed entry to Oshkosh on Monday. Wednesday's weather
was looking iffy so I decided not to
re-position the aircraft. The possibility of getting stuck in the mud prior
to departing on Thursday morning was not appealing.
The flight home below Chicago forced me 30 miles further south at the
southern end of Lake Michigan to get around the
low IMC coming off the lake but otherwise was pleasant.
I stopped for lunch and fuel in Valparaiso (KVPZ) and met several other
traveling Airventure Pilots before the last leg home.
No mechanical problems, 5.2 gal/hr at 125 mph, 4 hours flight time each way.
The adventure did not go as planned but it was still a memorable event.
Gary Ray, Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair engine 0.060 over, Roy's
Zarafinski's 5th bearing, Mark Petunias Falcon Heads, TT=145.6 hrs
I have no complaints other than, it was hard to find a decent cup of coffee.
One good one in a downtown Oshkosh coffee shop. Life is good.
Make it happen.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Lindstrom" <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update i ssues.
> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>
> I asked Sebastien yesterday the very same thing about why no 601xl at OSH,
> Ben.
>
> According to him, there WAS supposed to be a modded 601XL here, but it was
> weathered out earlier in the week and the owner decided to bag the trip
> entirely.
>
> We've already done the modification for one 601 in our shop, and the
> second is pretty close to completion. Even before flight test, it's pretty
> apparent that the structures have been beefed up considerably. The added
> rigidity is hard to miss.
>
> My personal opinion is that Zenith has taken a real belt AND suspenders
> approach to the modifications, addressing pretty much everything that
> MIGHT possibly have been a contributing factor to the overstress and / or
> flutter issues in the original design.
>
> I'll know more once I start flying mine again.
>
> Rick Lindstrom
> Zenvair 601XLB N42KP
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: "n801bh@netzero.com"
>
> Sent: Jul 31, 2010 9:41 PM
>
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
> update i ssues.
>
>
> Hi Jeff....
> We are all in the Zenith family in one way or another so a healthy debate
> that might prevent future fatalities in my mind is constructive. Email me
> directly on your troubles with the 3300 air plenum issues. If I can help
> fabricate something I will.
>
>
> Roger Lambert sent this to my personal email so I wll post it to the list
> as he asked.
>
>
> ?
>
>
> Perhaps the reason you get a cool reception is you post messages with
> incorrect statements of fact. Zenith has displayed a 601xl at Lakeland
> each of the last two years as well as other airshows, including the LSA in
> Sebring. You can post your retraction in the same forum as the original.
> Roger Lambert.
>
> I said Osh and other airshows. You can pick and choose you comments as you
> feel the need to position your case, BUT. Osh is the biggest show for
> experimentals so my question still exists.
> Why not display a 601/650 ?????????????
> Your turn sir.
> Ben.
>
>
> st@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
> update issues.
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:57:34 -0400
>
>
> Ben,
> The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of
> the XL accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a
> valuable place in our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH
> owes them a refund because the design is short of the claims: that has not
> been shown to my satisfaction. Clearly, something has been happening with
> the XL. People have died. But the cause has still not been clearly
> identified. To claim otherwise is just unethical, juvenile, sophomoric,
> or whatever. The upgrade package is a shotgun approach based on the lack
> of an identified single cause. Most people accept the upgrade package as
> resulting in an acceptable design. Sometimes in life there is no clear
> answer to our questions. I don't see any use in furthering this
> discussion. This is old stuff. Let's move on.
> Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles?
> Jeff
>
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> n801bh@netzero.com
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
> update i ssues.
>
> Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy,
> BUT...
> I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. About
> half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 801
> builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since learned
> is was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier
> mod.
> 1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a
> 601XL.
> 2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a
> homebuilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a
> factory one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot
> error and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was
> documented with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the
> same failure repeated itself. Hhmmm.
> I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on posted
> topics.
> Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith
> booth at Osh.
> Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably.
> For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in
> claiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has
> decades of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are
> in denial of the facts.
> So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed why
> has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that matter,
> for two years? What's their concern?
> Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated one,
> side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and
> future customers minds.
> Comments guys and gals .... ??
> do not archive
>
>
> m>
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
> update issues.
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:36:49 -0400
>
> <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
>
> Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely
> useless
> email train. Congratulations!
> Jeff
>
> Do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update
> issues.
>
>
> Mr. Davidson, in my defense
>
> Col. Russ Schleeh says:
>
> "check 6, she is a charger"
>
> Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try...
>
> Hugs to Jim & Paul...
>
> Paul... see you today?
>
> Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791
>
>
> _=======================bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -<B
> ========================
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
> SPECIAL REPORT: iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
> ctips.net
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ===================================
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> ===================================
> tronics.com
> ===================================
> www.matronics.com/contribution
> ===================================
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Free Credit Score
> A bad credit score is below 598. Click here to see yours for $0. Checking
> won't affect your score. By Experian
> FreeCreditScore.com
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update |
issues.
So that was YOU he was talking about, Gary? I wish I would've known!
Sorry not to see your airplane here, but given the conditions at "Sloshkosh", I
can see why you wouldn't want to get mired in da mud...
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Ray <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
>Sent: Aug 1, 2010 5:39 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update
issues.
>
>
>I was invited to bring my 601XL-B to the Corvair booth Mon...Thur.
>I tried to bring it in on Sun afternoon, the 25th, but the airport had
>re-closed during the 5 hours it took me to get there.
>Two other major airports were also closed due to saturation parking
>problems. Outagamie (KATW) and Fond du Lac (KFLD)
>I landed on a 20 x 2400 foot paved strip at Brennand Airport (K79C), 10
>north of Oshkosh.
>They were very nice, $10/day tie-down fee, honor system if manager not
>around, 100LL available with assistance and a very pretty setting.
>It turned out that my brother lived 3 miles down the road. Other Oshkosh
>bound pilots also kindly offered me a ride.
>Again, I was not allowed entry to Oshkosh on Monday. Wednesday's weather
>was looking iffy so I decided not to
>re-position the aircraft. The possibility of getting stuck in the mud prior
>to departing on Thursday morning was not appealing.
>The flight home below Chicago forced me 30 miles further south at the
>southern end of Lake Michigan to get around the
>low IMC coming off the lake but otherwise was pleasant.
>I stopped for lunch and fuel in Valparaiso (KVPZ) and met several other
>traveling Airventure Pilots before the last leg home.
>No mechanical problems, 5.2 gal/hr at 125 mph, 4 hours flight time each way.
>The adventure did not go as planned but it was still a memorable event.
>
>Gary Ray, Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair engine 0.060 over, Roy's
>Zarafinski's 5th bearing, Mark Petunias Falcon Heads, TT=145.6 hrs
>I have no complaints other than, it was hard to find a decent cup of coffee.
>One good one in a downtown Oshkosh coffee shop. Life is good.
>Make it happen.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Rick Lindstrom" <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>To: <zenith-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 11:38 AM
>Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
>update i ssues.
>
>
>> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>>
>> I asked Sebastien yesterday the very same thing about why no 601xl at OSH,
>> Ben.
>>
>> According to him, there WAS supposed to be a modded 601XL here, but it was
>> weathered out earlier in the week and the owner decided to bag the trip
>> entirely.
>>
>> We've already done the modification for one 601 in our shop, and the
>> second is pretty close to completion. Even before flight test, it's pretty
>> apparent that the structures have been beefed up considerably. The added
>> rigidity is hard to miss.
>>
>> My personal opinion is that Zenith has taken a real belt AND suspenders
>> approach to the modifications, addressing pretty much everything that
>> MIGHT possibly have been a contributing factor to the overstress and / or
>> flutter issues in the original design.
>>
>> I'll know more once I start flying mine again.
>>
>> Rick Lindstrom
>> Zenvair 601XLB N42KP
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> From: "n801bh@netzero.com"
>>
>> Sent: Jul 31, 2010 9:41 PM
>>
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>
>> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
>> update i ssues.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Jeff....
>> We are all in the Zenith family in one way or another so a healthy debate
>> that might prevent future fatalities in my mind is constructive. Email me
>> directly on your troubles with the 3300 air plenum issues. If I can help
>> fabricate something I will.
>>
>>
>> Roger Lambert sent this to my personal email so I wll post it to the list
>> as he asked.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps the reason you get a cool reception is you post messages with
>> incorrect statements of fact. Zenith has displayed a 601xl at Lakeland
>> each of the last two years as well as other airshows, including the LSA in
>> Sebring. You can post your retraction in the same forum as the original.
>> Roger Lambert.
>>
>> I said Osh and other airshows. You can pick and choose you comments as you
>> feel the need to position your case, BUT. Osh is the biggest show for
>> experimentals so my question still exists.
>> Why not display a 601/650 ?????????????
>> Your turn sir.
>> Ben.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> st@matronics.com>
>> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
>> update issues.
>> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:57:34 -0400
>>
>>
>>
>> Ben,
>> The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of
>> the XL accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a
>> valuable place in our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH
>> owes them a refund because the design is short of the claims: that has not
>> been shown to my satisfaction. Clearly, something has been happening with
>> the XL. People have died. But the cause has still not been clearly
>> identified. To claim otherwise is just unethical, juvenile, sophomoric,
>> or whatever. The upgrade package is a shotgun approach based on the lack
>> of an identified single cause. Most people accept the upgrade package as
>> resulting in an acceptable design. Sometimes in life there is no clear
>> answer to our questions. I don't see any use in furthering this
>> discussion. This is old stuff. Let's move on.
>> Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles?
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> n801bh@netzero.com
>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
>> update i ssues.
>>
>> Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy,
>> BUT...
>> I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. About
>> half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 801
>> builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since learned
>> is was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier
>> mod.
>> 1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a
>> 601XL.
>> 2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a
>> homebuilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a
>> factory one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot
>> error and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was
>> documented with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the
>> same failure repeated itself. Hhmmm.
>> I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on posted
>> topics.
>> Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith
>> booth at Osh.
>> Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably.
>> For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in
>> claiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has
>> decades of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are
>> in denial of the facts.
>> So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed why
>> has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that matter,
>> for two years? What's their concern?
>> Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated one,
>> side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and
>> future customers minds.
>> Comments guys and gals .... ??
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> m>
>> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
>> update issues.
>> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 09:36:49 -0400
>>
>> <jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely
>> useless
>> email train. Congratulations!
>> Jeff
>>
>> Do not archive
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM
>> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update
>> issues.
>>
>>
>> Mr. Davidson, in my defense
>>
>> Col. Russ Schleeh says:
>>
>> "check 6, she is a charger"
>>
>> Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try...
>>
>> Hugs to Jim & Paul...
>>
>> Paul... see you today?
>>
>> Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _=======================bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -<B
>> ========================
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
>> SPECIAL REPORT: iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
>> ctips.net
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>> ===================================
>> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
>> ===================================
>> tronics.com
>> ===================================
>> www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> Free Credit Score
>> A bad credit score is below 598. Click here to see yours for $0. Checking
>> won't affect your score. By Experian
>> FreeCreditScore.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update |
i ssues.
Thanks Rick for the feed back. Am I wrong or does Zenith already have th
eir 601 upgraded ? I did see 2 other 601's within 100 yards of the Zenit
h booth that had the upgrade kit installed. The one in homebuilt camping
was a good example on how a 601 builder had to drill out all the top ri
vets of the wings, remove the skins and do the mod. I spent 30 minutes o
r so looking over it close and kinda hoped the owner would have showed u
p to explain the complete process.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update i ssues.
com>
I asked Sebastien yesterday the very same thing about why no 601xl at OS
H, Ben.
According to him, there WAS supposed to be a modded 601XL here, but it w
as weathered out earlier in the week and the owner decided to bag the tr
ip entirely.
We've already done the modification for one 601 in our shop, and the sec
ond is pretty close to completion. Even before flight test, it's pretty
apparent that the structures have been beefed up considerably. The added
rigidity is hard to miss.
My personal opinion is that Zenith has taken a real belt AND suspenders
approach to the modifications, addressing pretty much everything that MI
GHT possibly have been a contributing factor to the overstress and / or
flutter issues in the original design.
I'll know more once I start flying mine again.
Rick Lindstrom
Zenvair 601XLB N42KP
-----Original Message-----
From: "n801bh@netzero.com"
Sent: Jul 31, 2010 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u
pdate i ssues.
Hi Jeff....
We are all in the Zenith family in one way or another so a healthy debat
e that might prevent future fatalities in my mind is constructive. Email
me directly on your troubles with the 3300 air plenum issues. If I can
help fabricate something I will.
Roger Lambert sent this to my personal email so I wll post it to the lis
t as he asked.
?
Perhaps the reason you get a cool reception is you post messages with in
correct statements of fact. Zenith has displayed a 601xl at Lakeland eac
h of the last two years as well as other airshows, including the LSA in
Sebring. You can post your retraction in the same forum as the original
.
Roger Lambert.
I said Osh and other airshows. You can pick and choose you comments as y
ou feel the need to position your case, BUT. Osh is the biggest show for
experimentals so my question still exists.
Why not display a 601/650 ?????????????
Your turn sir.
Ben.
st@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u
pdate issues.
Ben,
The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of
the XL accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a valua
ble place in our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH owes
them a refund because the design is short of the claims: that has not b
een shown to my satisfaction. Clearly, something has been happening wit
h the XL. People have died. But the cause has still not been clearly i
dentified. To claim otherwise is just unethical, juvenile, sophomoric,
or whatever. The upgrade package is a shotgun approach based on the lac
k of an identified single cause. Most people accept the upgrade package
as resulting in an acceptable design. Sometimes in life there is no cl
ear answer to our questions. I don't see any use in furthering this dis
cussion. This is old stuff. Let's move on.
Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles?
Jeff
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-s
erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u
pdate i ssues.
Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy, BU
T...
I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. Abou
t half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 8
01 builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since lea
rned is was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an
earlier mod.
1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a
601XL.
2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a homebu
ilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a facto
ry one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot er
ror and they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documente
d with radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the same failu
re repeated itself. Hhmmm.
I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on post
ed topics.
Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith b
ooth at Osh.
Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably.
For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in cl
aiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has d
ecades of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are
in denial of the facts.
So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed w
hy has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that mat
ter, for two years? What's their concern?
Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated on
e, side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and
future customers minds.
Comments guys and gals .... ??
do not archive
m>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl u
pdate issues.
et>
Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely usel
ess
email train. Congratulations!
Jeff
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl updat
e
issues.
Mr. Davidson, in my defense
Col. Russ Schleeh says:
"check 6, she is a charger"
Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try...
Hugs to Jim & Paul...
Paul... see you today?
Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791
_=======================bs
p; - List Contribution Web Site -<B ===
=====================
____________________________________________________________
TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
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ctips.net http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.
matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
========================
===========
tronics.com
========================
===========
www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
____________________________________________________________
Free Credit Score
A bad credit score is below 598. Click here to see yours for $0. Checkin
g won't affect your score. By Experian=C2=AE
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update |
i ss...
Ben;
There is a video on the Zenith web site that shows the upgrade
being installed on their 601.
Regards, John
CH701 - Colorado - Jabiru 3300
Cell: 719-494-4567
Home: 303-648-3261
In a message dated 8/1/2010 8:23:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
n801bh@netzero.com writes:
Thanks Rick for the feed back. Am I wrong or does Zenith already have
their 601 upgraded ? I did see 2 other 601's within 100 yards of the Zenith
booth that had the upgrade kit installed. The one in homebuilt camping was a
good example on how a 601 builder had to drill out all the top rivets of the
wings, remove the skins and do the mod. I spent 30 minutes or so looking
over it close and kinda hoped the owner would have showed up to explain the
complete process.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update i ssues.
<tigerrick@mindspring.com>
I asked Sebastien yesterday the very same thing about why no 601xl at OSH,
Ben.
According to him, there WAS supposed to be a modded 601XL here, but it was
weathered out earlier in the week and the owner decided to bag the trip
entirely.
We've already done the modification for one 601 in our shop, and the
second is pretty close to completion. Even before flight test, it's pretty
apparent that the structures have been beefed up considerably. The added
rigidity is hard to miss.
My personal opinion is that Zenith has taken a real belt AND suspenders
approach to the modifications, addressing pretty much everything that MIGHT
possibly have been a contributing factor to the overstress and / or flutter
issues in the original design.
I'll know more once I start flying mine again.
Rick Lindstrom
Zenvair 601XLB N42KP
-----Original Message-----
From: "n801bh@netzero.com"
Sent: Jul 31, 2010 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update i ssues.
Hi Jeff....
We are all in the Zenith family in one way or another so a healthy debate
that might prevent future fatalities in my mind is constructive. Email me
directly on your troubles with the 3300 air plenum issues. If I can help
fabricate something I will.
Roger Lambert sent this to my personal email so I wll post it to the list
as he asked.
?
Perhaps the reason you get a cool reception is you post messages with
incorrect statements of fact. Zenith has displayed a 601xl at Lakeland each of
the last two years as well as other airshows, including the LSA in Sebring.
You can post your retraction in the same forum as the original.
Roger Lambert.
I said Osh and other airshows. You can pick and choose you comments as you
feel the need to position your case, BUT. Osh is the biggest show for
experimentals so my question still exists.
Why not display a 601/650 ?????????????
Your turn sir.
Ben.
st@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update issues.
Ben,
The point is that no smoking gun has been found to be the cause of the XL
accidents. Innovators like you are very welcome and have a valuable place
in our Zenith community. But when someone claims that CH owes them a refund
because the design is short of the claims: that has not been shown to my
satisfaction. Clearly, something has been happening with the XL. People
have died. But the cause has still not been clearly identified. To claim
otherwise is just unethical, juvenile, sophomoric, or whatever. The upgrade
package is a shotgun approach based on the lack of an identified single
cause. Most people accept the upgrade package as resulting in an acceptable
design. Sometimes in life there is no clear answer to our questions. I
don't see any use in furthering this discussion. This is old stuff. Let's
move on.
Can you help with my Jabiru 3300 air plenum baffles?
Jeff
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh@netzero.com
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update i ssues.
Warning::: Disclaimer. I am an 801 builder and owner, not a 601 guy,
BUT...
I have had a good experience with Zenith during my build of my 801. About
half way through we had an 801 break up in mid air. To say all of us 801
builders were quite concerned is an understatement. We have since learned is
was pilot error breaking apart a possible weakened tail from an earlier
mod.
1- Sabrina has every right to speak her piece as she is the builder of a
601XL.
2- When this whole fiasco started the common blame was " it was a
homebuilt airframe and it was not put together correctly". Then we had a factory
one fail in the exact same manner. The new spin was " it was pilot error and
they flew it too fast.... Then the Yuba city crash was documented with
radar returns that show the speed was below VA and the same failure repeated
itself. Hhmmm.
I am a pretty vocal person and most on this list know how I feel on posted
topics.
Just Yesterday I got a rather cold reception when I visited the Zenith
booth at Osh.
Are they ticked at me for saying what I do ? Most probably.
For all you people, including Zenith Aircraft Company, who persist in
claiming there is NO problem with the design and state Chris Heintz has decades
of engineering experience so he is right and others are wrong are in
denial of the facts.
So I guess my question is this. If the 601XL is so safe and not flawed why
has Zenith not displayed it at OSH, or any other airshow for that matter,
for two years? What's their concern?
Seems to me they would display a 601XL, a standard one and an updated one,
side by side and answer any and all questions to ease the present and
future customers minds.
Comments guys and gals .... ??
do not archive
m>
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl
update issues.
Well, Sabrina, you have been successful in prolonging this entirely useless
email train. Congratulations!
Jeff
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sabrina
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 7:39 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Zenith601-List: Re: Report from OSH on 601xl update
issues.
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Sabrina" <chicago2paris@msn.com>
Mr. Davidson, in my defense
Col. Russ Schleeh says:
"check 6, she is a charger"
Don't know if that carries any weight, but I do try...
Hugs to Jim & Paul...
Paul... see you today?
Jim... see you the 17th on my way back from Edwards?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=306791#306791
_=======================bsp; - List Contribution Web Site -<B
========================
____________________________________________________________
TODAY: iPads for $23.74?
SPECIAL REPORT: iPads are being auctioned for an incredible 80% off!
ctips.net
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
===================================
tronics.com
===================================
www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
____________________________________________________________
Free Credit Score
A bad credit score is below 598. Click here to see yours for $0. Checking
won't affect your score. By Experian
FreeC======================================================================
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FORU========================; - List Contribution Websp;
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Find out how to get a MacBook for $24.73. See what eBay has been HIDING
from you!
_ (http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3242/4c562baa7083159e35dst01vuc)
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(http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3242/4c562baa7083159e35dst01vuc)
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Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
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removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Zenith-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Zenith-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Zenith-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Zenith-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Zenith-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Zenith-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Zenith-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Zenith-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Zenith-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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| Subject: | Official Zenith-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Zenith-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Zenith-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Zenith-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Zenith-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Zenith-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Zenith-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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