Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:24 AM - 2011 the year of the Zenith (Joe)
2. 01:52 PM - Re: 2011 the year of the Zenith (MHerder)
3. 05:59 PM - copy hole pattern? (Carlos Sa)
4. 06:24 PM - Re: copy hole pattern? (Paul Mulwitz)
5. 06:45 PM - Re: copy hole pattern? (Carlos Sa)
6. 07:13 PM - Re: copy hole pattern? (R. Johnson)
7. 07:40 PM - Re: copy hole pattern? (MHerder)
8. 07:58 PM - Re: copy hole pattern? (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 08:02 PM - Re: copy hole pattern? (Ron Lendon)
10. 08:33 PM - Re: Re: copy hole pattern? (Carlos Sa)
11. 09:30 PM - Re: Re: copy hole pattern? (Jeff)
12. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: copy hole pattern? (Terry Phillips)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 2011 the year of the Zenith |
Friends and fellow builders,
I started this discussion on the Zenith Aircraft builders and flyers blog.
Below is a copy of the post. I would appreciate it if I could get some input
from everyone on this subject. I would love to see the 2011 EAA Convention
in Oshkosh become the year of the Zenith!
------
Hope you all came home safely from Oshkosh! Another great year and once
again, there are no other kits on the field I would rather build than a
Zenith! Once again, by looking at the grass around the Zenith site in
Oshkosh, the grass won't be growing there for a while!
The Zenith tent had what I feel was an incredible turnout of walking traffic
all week!
With that said, I'm wondering where all the Zenith airplanes are during
Oshkosh? I have an idea I would like to share with the group and please take
the time to write a comment to this discussion so I can get an idea where I
should go from here.
I'm lucky enough to say I live just a few blocks from the Oshkosh airfield!
I plan to have my 601 XL on the field next year, and I have an idea that I
passed on to Sebastian - and he gave me his blessing.
I'm looking to see if there is enough interest among the builders to make
Oshkosh 2011 the year of the Zenith! Seeing that I live in Oshkosh, I know
almost everyone in management at the EAA, I work with the Oshkosh media, I
know where all the great eating and catering places are in Oshkosh, I would
like to volunteer to put a program together to make 2011 our year at EAA.
I can imagine many things, but I would like to get a discussion going to see
what you would like to see Zenith do in Oshkosh. It's easy to get a plot of
parking spaces similar to the RV parking near the homebuilt kit display. Is
there 25 or more aircraft we could count on to come to Oshkosh? If the
answer is yes, we can all park together on the field. I can set up group
accommodations at the university, or group camping on the field, or group
camping where we park the planes. Let's get Chris to Oshkosh and honor him
with the recognition he deserves. Would you like to build a kit on the
field? Group cookouts? Maybe a larger place to meet for dinner just for
2011? Any or all of the above things would be covered with major press
releases.
Not only would we all have a blast, but it would solidify the Zenith brand
and make the company stronger in the eyes of EAA members and the press.
So I guess to start the discussion, do you think we could get a minimum of
25 Zenith aircraft to attend Oshkosh 2011? We have 3 here already. Then
after the initial commitment, we can work on housing, etc.
So what do you think? Please give me your opinion.
Joe in Oshkosh
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 2011 the year of the Zenith |
Oshkosh has been list for 4 years now.
Mike Herder Zodiac 601 HD- TAXI TESTING, and getting it all buttoned up for airworthiness
inspection.
I'd love to be there, and plan on it!
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308569#308569
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| Subject: | copy hole pattern? |
Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me
decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron
(6F1-3).
(In case you are interested, I posted pictures so the folks at ZAC could see
the damage and recommend a fix - which they did, but I decided not to fix.
http://picasaweb.google.com/carlossa52/ElongatedHolesRearSkinLowerLongeron#)
Thankfully, tere's nothing wrong with the bottom skin, left longeron and
left skin.
So, obviously, I want to keep those.
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of)
holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes matching
those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of elongating
the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh...
Message 4
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| Subject: | copy hole pattern? |
Hi Carlos,
I'm not sure I understand your issue, but I have learned more ways to
duplicate hole patterns in the last 5 years than I can count.
I think you have access to the hole pattern while laying the skin on the
longeron but you don't want to directly drill through the skin because the
longeron is much thicker than the skin. The way that comes to mind to do
this duplication is to start with a small (#40?)longeron hole in each skin
hole and enlarge it step by step until you reach the desired size. That way
the drill will not exert much force on the skin while enlarging the hole in
the longeron the final time.
Of course the way to start this is to clamp the longeron to the skin. Then
use a Cleco in each hole drilled until the whole thing is held firmly in
place. As you increase the drill size keep a Cleco in every other hole.
I hope this helps.
Paul
XL installing upgrade.
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 5:57 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: copy hole pattern?
Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me
decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron
(6F1-3).
(In case you are interested, I posted pictures so the folks at ZAC could see
the damage and recommend a fix - which they did, but I decided not to fix.
http://picasaweb.google.com/carlossa52/ElongatedHolesRearSkinLowerLongeron#
<http://picasaweb.google.com/carlossa52/ElongatedHolesRearSkinLowerLongeron>
)
Thankfully, tere's nothing wrong with the bottom skin, left longeron and
left skin.
So, obviously, I want to keep those.
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of)
holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes matching
those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of elongating
the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
Paul, you did understand the problem.
You propose an interesting approach - but then I face my old, proven,
inability to drill a hole in precisely the desired spot...
I did not mention an approach used by Michel Therrien: he cut the flange of
the old logeron, clamped it on the new one and then copied the holes.
This is my plan 'B', because I don't have good tools to cut the longeron
(such as a band saw).
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 21:23, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
> Hi Carlos,
>
>
> I'm not sure I understand your issue, but I have learned more ways to
> duplicate hole patterns in the last 5 years than I can count.
>
>
> I think you have access to the hole pattern while laying the skin on the
> longeron but you don't want to directly drill through the skin because the
> longeron is much thicker than the skin. The way that comes to mind to do
> this duplication is to start with a small (#40?)longeron hole in each skin
> hole and enlarge it step by step until you reach the desired size. That way
> the drill will not exert much force on the skin while enlarging the hole in
> the longeron the final time.
>
>
> Of course the way to start this is to clamp the longeron to the skin. Then
> use a Cleco in each hole drilled until the whole thing is held firmly in
> place. As you increase the drill size keep a Cleco in every other hole.
>
>
> I hope this helps.
>
>
> Paul
>
> XL installing upgrade.
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
Hello, Listers
In building the Zodie (HD) rear fuselage, I made a mistake that made me
decide to trash the rear right skin (6F3-3) and the lower rear longeron
(6F1-3).
The question is, what would be the best way of copying the (pattern of)
holes on the longeron? (Such that the new longeron will have holes
matching those in the bottom skin.)
I don't want to use the bottom skin as the pattern for fear of
elongating the holes, given the thickness of the material (0.020").
Suggestions?
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
One step forward, twenty-three backward. Sigh..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can buy transfer punches from McMaster Carr, these will give a very
precise center punch mark for drilling.
below is a description of them.
Hope this is of some help.
Russell Johnson
601-HDS
Use to transfer the location of threaded, drilled, and reamed holes from
one piece of metal to another that requires identical holes. These
U.S.-made punches are made from top-quality heat-treated tempered steel
with a black-oxide finish for durability. All are approximately 4 7/8"
long.
The diameter tolerances of these punches are =B10.0005". Punches with
diameters of 1/16" to 3/32", #40 to #60, and 1 mm to 2 mm are
approximately 0.002" undersized. Those with diameters 7/64" to 17/32", A
to Z, #1 to #39, and 2.5 mm to 13 mm are approximately 0.0025"
undersized. Punch diameters 35/64" to 2" and 13.5 mm to 25 mm are
approximately 0.003" undersized.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
I think its called a Strap duplicator. Available at the yardstore. Very handy
tool.
--------
One Rivet at a Time!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308603#308603
Message 8
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| Subject: | copy hole pattern? |
Carlos,
You don't have to hit dead center in the hole when using a smaller drill.
The cutting edge on the drill is just on the end so when you get to the edge
of the hole the side of the drill will be supported by the skin hole edge.
By starting small you only have a little metal to remove when you use the
skin to support the drill.
Try on a piece of scrap metal first. You'll see -- this trick actually
works.
Best regards,
Paul
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: copy hole pattern?
Paul, you did understand the problem.
You propose an interesting approach - but then I face my old, proven,
inability to drill a hole in precisely the desired spot...
I did not mention an approach used by Michel Therrien: he cut the flange of
the old logeron, clamped it on the new one and then copied the holes.
This is my plan 'B', because I don't have good tools to cut the longeron
(such as a band saw).
Thanks for the suggestion, Paul
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 21:23, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
Hi Carlos,
I'm not sure I understand your issue, but I have learned more ways to
duplicate hole patterns in the last 5 years than I can count.
I think you have access to the hole pattern while laying the skin on the
longeron but you don't want to directly drill through the skin because the
longeron is much thicker than the skin. The way that comes to mind to do
this duplication is to start with a small (#40?)longeron hole in each skin
hole and enlarge it step by step until you reach the desired size. That way
the drill will not exert much force on the skin while enlarging the hole in
the longeron the final time.
Of course the way to start this is to clamp the longeron to the skin. Then
use a Cleco in each hole drilled until the whole thing is held firmly in
place. As you increase the drill size keep a Cleco in every other hole.
I hope this helps.
Paul
XL installing upgrade.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
Carlos,
I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a small shoulder
step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's about 5/8"
long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it drops into the
5/32" hole in the skin.
I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot drill through
the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill through but
just mark the center then remove the button and drill through with a pilot drill.
If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you one
and mail it out.
586-484-3391
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=308608#308608
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
Ron, thanks for the offer.
I am not sure I understood the description (actually, I am sure I didn't).
It seems to be something different from the transfer punch Russel suggested.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z
Do you have a picture somewhere in your kitlog?
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 22:58, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Carlos,
>
> I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a
> small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's
> about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it
> drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
>
> I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot
> drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill
> through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through
> with a pilot drill.
>
> If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you
> one and mail it out.
>
> 586-484-3391
>
> --------
> Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
> WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
> Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
> http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
Carlos,
If you go to US Industrial Tool, a set of Transfer Punches is part
number TP457K. Just search for it in the search box. Also look at part
TP783. This is a housing and variable size drill bushings to help make sure
the hole is 90 degrees to the part. Other drill bushings are also made with
an outside diameter to fit in your existing hole. They have an inner hole
to guide your drill to make a pilot hole in the new part or skin. Take a
look at H type drill bushings at the Reid Supply or McMaster-Carr web sites.
Any of these may work for you.
Jeff
_____
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:33 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: copy hole pattern?
Ron, thanks for the offer.
I am not sure I understood the description (actually, I am sure I didn't).
It seems to be something different from the transfer punch Russel suggested.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z
do not archive
Do you have a picture somewhere in your kitlog?
Carlos
On 12 August 2010 22:58, Ron Lendon <ron.lendon@gmail.com> wrote:
Carlos,
I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a
small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's
about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when it
drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot
drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill
through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through
with a pilot drill.
If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make you
one and mail it out.
586-484-3391
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: copy hole pattern? |
Carlos
I bought a set of transfer punches from Harbor Freight,
http://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-transfer-punch-set-3577.html
for my wing upgrade. A well spent $10 for a set ranging from 3/32" to 1/2".
I've only used a few of them, but I've used them over and over again. As
Russel suggested, I think they will do exactly what you want, i.e., enable
you to back drill a hole right in the center of the pattern hole. As Paul
recommended, start w/ a 3/32" drill and progressively enlarge the hole.
Terry
At 11:32 PM 8/12/2010 -0400, you wrote:
>Ron, thanks for the offer.
>
>I am not sure I understood the description (actually, I am sure I didn't).
>It seems to be something different from the transfer punch Russel suggested.
><http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z>http://www.mcmaster.com/#transfer-punches/=8doc4z
>
>
>Do you have a picture somewhere in your kitlog?
>
>Carlos
>
>
>On 12 August 2010 22:58, Ron Lendon
><<mailto:ron.lendon@gmail.com>ron.lendon@gmail.com> wrote:
>><<mailto:ron.lendon@gmail.com>ron.lendon@gmail.com>
>>
>>Carlos,
>>
>>I use a small step button with a 3/32" ID hole through the center and a
>>small shoulder step .020" of 5/32" OD from .5" dia bar stock steel. It's
>>about 5/8" long also which makes it easy to hold in place and feel when
>>it drops into the 5/32" hole in the skin.
>>
>>I use a 3/32" drill in a drill motor, hold the button in place and spot
>>drill through the center hole. I have found it works better to not drill
>>through but just mark the center then remove the button and drill through
>>with a pilot drill.
>>
>>If you don't have the ability to make this tool call me and I will make
>>you one and mail it out.
>>
>>586-484-3391
>
>
>Terry Phillips
>ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
>Corvallis MT
>ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done;
>Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive
>http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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