Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:43 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. (FLYaDIVE)
2. 06:23 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. (Ken Arnold)
3. 09:02 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Randy L. Thwing)
4. 10:55 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Rick Lindstrom)
5. 11:35 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. (Don Honabach)
6. 11:52 AM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Rick Lindstrom)
7. 12:11 PM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Jim Belcher)
8. 12:17 PM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
9. 12:24 PM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Randy L. Thwing)
10. 12:58 PM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Rick Lindstrom)
11. 02:47 PM - Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece (Paul Mulwitz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. |
Hello Gaggle:
I just had my first up-close LQQK at a Zenith, thank you Phil of NJ. I have
always liked the lines of the plane but, getting close to it I fixated on
the raised rivets... Millions of them.
So, I was wondering, can the raised rivets be replaced with flush? And, if
so, would you have to dimple or countersink? I prefer dimple. So, is the
plane approved for this?
Barry
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. |
Hey Barry,
Give Zenith in Mexico a call. They have the specs.
Ken
CH701, 912ULS
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem
at all.
Hello Gaggle:
I just had my first up-close LQQK at a Zenith, thank you Phil of NJ.
I have always liked the lines of the plane but, getting close to it I
fixated on the raised rivets... Millions of them.
So, I was wondering, can the raised rivets be replaced with flush?
And, if so, would you have to dimple or countersink? I prefer dimple.
So, is the plane approved for this?
Barry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
do not archive
Here's one from the archives:
I am wondering the best way to modify the head for the domed rivets.
What
is the best way to do this???
>From the Zenith archives:
The Dremel works fine and fast, use a small green round ball (silicon
carbide) or any other stone that has a point or round end, Put the
riviet
gun head in the lathe chuck and while spinning it, fire off the
moto-tool,
hold it with both hands braced against whatever is nearby, and shape the
end
in a nice conical shape, starting from the hole in the center and
working
outward, keep the cone shallow, you can always go deeper. No gottem
lathe?
Sure you do, put your fastest turning pistol grip drill motor in your
workbench vise, usually upside down with pistol grip up, (up is towards
the
sky for you airplane builders!) tighten vise enough to hold drill case,
not
crushing it where the armature will never turn again! Place the rivet
head
in the drill chuck and lock the trigger back and grind away. Takes
longer
to describe than to do, finish with emery cloth if your stones grind
course.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Randy, Las Vegas, 701/plans
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem
at all.
Hi Steve,
Here is a link to Harbor Freight's web page for the riveter:
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-16-inch-air-hydraulic-riveter-93458.html
I started by ordering a hand riveter with ground heads from ZAC. I
didn't like the way they worked because I had too much trouble getting
the nose piece completely flat on the work piece. So I turned and
ground my own nose pieces to my own design. It is similar to the ones
supplied by ZAC but the flat portion of the nose is much larger in
diameter - something close to 1/2 inch instead of the thin end of their
nose pieces. It is a trade off between fitting into tight spaces and
ease of getting the set rivets completely flush against the metal all
around the rivet head.
Grinding the recess in the nose piece turned out to be a really easy
thing to do. I mounted the original style piece on my lathe (I'm sure
you could do this with a drill press or even a drill) and ground a
hollow sphere in the center with a dremel tool and small round stone.
Adjusting the depth was a matter if trial and error until I was happy
with the resulting set rivets. For deeper recess I just repeated the
original operation. To make it more shallow I just filed the end of the
nose piece down a little.
Good luck,
Paul
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
Jeez, I feel so low tech!
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Oct 15, 2010 8:58 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece
>
>do not archive
>
>Here's one from the archives:
>
>I am wondering the best way to modify the head for the domed rivets. What
>is the best way to do this???
>
>>From the Zenith archives:
>
>The Dremel works fine and fast, use a small green round ball (silicon
>carbide) or any other stone that has a point or round end, Put the riviet
>gun head in the lathe chuck and while spinning it, fire off the moto-tool,
>hold it with both hands braced against whatever is nearby, and shape the end
>in a nice conical shape, starting from the hole in the center and working
>outward, keep the cone shallow, you can always go deeper. No gottem lathe?
>Sure you do, put your fastest turning pistol grip drill motor in your
>workbench vise, usually upside down with pistol grip up, (up is towards the
>sky for you airplane builders!) tighten vise enough to hold drill case, not
>crushing it where the armature will never turn again! Place the rivet head
>in the drill chuck and lock the trigger back and grind away. Takes longer
>to describe than to do, finish with emery cloth if your stones grind course.
>Hope this helps.
>Regards,
>Randy, Las Vegas, 701/plans
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Mulwitz
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:42 PM
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all.
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
>
>
> Here is a link to Harbor Freight's web page for the riveter: http://www.harborfreight.com/3-16-inch-air-hydraulic-riveter-93458.html
>
>
>
> I started by ordering a hand riveter with ground heads from ZAC. I didn't like
the way they worked because I had too much trouble getting the nose piece
completely flat on the work piece. So I turned and ground my own nose pieces
to my own design. It is similar to the ones supplied by ZAC but the flat portion
of the nose is much larger in diameter - something close to 1/2 inch instead
of the thin end of their nose pieces. It is a trade off between fitting into
tight spaces and ease of getting the set rivets completely flush against the
metal all around the rivet head.
>
>
>
> Grinding the recess in the nose piece turned out to be a really easy thing to
do. I mounted the original style piece on my lathe (I'm sure you could do this
with a drill press or even a drill) and ground a hollow sphere in the center
with a dremel tool and small round stone. Adjusting the depth was a matter
if trial and error until I was happy with the resulting set rivets. For deeper
recess I just repeated the original operation. To make it more shallow I just
filed the end of the nose piece down a little.
>
>
>
> Good luck,
>
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. |
>From what I heard (please correct me if I wrong), most of the ZAC designs w
on't have any real-world improvement from using flush rivets.
However, if you do want to do flush rivets, I suggest tracking down an RV o
wner's construction manual - they have good guidelines in there for the cor
e process which would apply equally to the ZAC designs.
I believe the key is that for .025 and smaller skins you have to dimple. Fo
r 0.032 and larger you are generally countersinking, but it could be 0.040
and larger though... again, see a RV construction manual for full details (
always at least one RV builder at an airport!)
My understanding (although I'm not an engineer) is that dimpled skins/ribs
are actually a stronger bond. However, in some cases making one area strong
er without making other areas stronger can lead to issues, so you definitel
y want to check with ZAC or an engineer if you have concerns. When counters
inking, if done wrong it can weaken the bond so you definitely want to make
sure you understand the proper processes/technique for it - especially on
the thinner skins.
If you want a super glass like finish, some flush builders will apply a fib
erglass epoxy mix with cotton (?) to the top of the flush rivet head and th
en sand down smooth to the skin. This way when painted the rivets will 'dis
appear'. Frankly this seems like extreme overkill for the ZAC's typical mis
sion (a KIS fun airplane), but that is the joy of building your own plane a
nd getting to decide what areas you want to go a bit nuts on.
Don Honabach
Tempe, AZ
601HDS - 150+ hours
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at a
ll.
Hello Gaggle:
I just had my first up-close LQQK at a Zenith, thank you Phil of NJ. I hav
e always liked the lines of the plane but, getting close to it I fixated on
the raised rivets... Millions of them.
So, I was wondering, can the raised rivets be replaced with flush? And, if
so, would you have to dimple or countersink? I prefer dimple. So, is the
plane approved for this?
Barry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
There was supposed to be more to that post!
I ended up making the initial dome in the nosepiece from simply and carefully starting
with the tip of a suitable drill bit chucked up in a drill press, with
the nosepiece firmly held in a vise on the stage. Final finish was easy with
the nosepiece lightly chucked in the drill press, and a bit of emery cloth applied
to the dome.
Am I making it too simple?
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Oct 15, 2010 10:52 AM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece
>
>
>Jeez, I feel so low tech!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>>Sent: Oct 15, 2010 8:58 AM
>>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
I don't think so. I've been wondering why everyone went to so much trouble,
but was reluctant to comment.
I bought the pneumatic riveter from Zenith, and had no problems. However, I
modified a hand pop riveter to pull rivets in tight areas. For it, I installed
the head in the hand held riveter, and carefully installed it in a drill vise,
with the head facing upwards.
I picked a drill bit whose end seemed to be a reasonable match to the
curvature of the Zenith heads. I cut away metal from the head in the hand
riveter, until it looked like a reasonable match for the Zenith head. I've
been using that to pull the hard to reach rivets without difficulty (other than
my hands cramping, etc).
The emery cloth would have been a good idea, but for whatever reason, I didn't
think of it.
It might be worth mentioning that I cut away parts of the hand riveter, so it
would fit in some of those tight places.
On Friday 15 October 2010 13:49:49 you wrote:
> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>
> There was supposed to be more to that post!
>
> I ended up making the initial dome in the nosepiece from simply and
> carefully starting with the tip of a suitable drill bit chucked up in a
> drill press, with the nosepiece firmly held in a vise on the stage. Final
> finish was easy with the nosepiece lightly chucked in the drill press, and
> a bit of emery cloth applied to the dome.
>
> Am I making it too simple?
<snip of previous emails>
--
=======================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS,MS Physics, Math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
General Radio Telephone Certificate
Instrument Rated Pilot
Retired Aerospace Technical Manager
=======================================
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter problems - no problem at all. |
Another problem that you will run into will be gaining acess to buck the
rivets unless you are planning of using the avex rivets which don't look all
that great flush.
Jeff
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
do not archive
Hey Rick:
Your method is simple and completely legal as sanctioned by the Kitchen Sink
Technology Institute.
Where a problem could arise is if one runs into heat treated nose pieces.
They could be case hardened (a very hard skin say .008" deep) or through
hardened. I don't know if any are. But if they are, both heat treat
methods could be as hard or harder than your HSS drill. Abrasives don't
care about steel hardness for the most part.
Regards,
Randy, Las Vegas
> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>
> There was supposed to be more to that post!
>
> I ended up making the initial dome in the nosepiece from simply and
> carefully starting with the tip of a suitable drill bit chucked up in a
> drill press, with the nosepiece firmly held in a vise on the stage. Final
> finish was easy with the nosepiece lightly chucked in the drill press, and
> a bit of emery cloth applied to the dome.
>
> Am I making it too simple?
>
> Rick
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
do not archive
Given the "bargain" nature of the Chinese made, disposable tools we're working
with here, cutting into the nosepiece was a snap. Even the chrome plating didn't
slow down the cutting of the bit much. But OK. I did cheat and use some cutting
oil.
As soft as the nosepieces are, the rivets are even softer! Good thing!
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Oct 15, 2010 12:21 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece
>
>
>do not archive
>
>Hey Rick:
>
>Your method is simple and completely legal as sanctioned by the Kitchen Sink
>Technology Institute.
>
>Where a problem could arise is if one runs into heat treated nose pieces.
>They could be case hardened (a very hard skin say .008" deep) or through
>hardened. I don't know if any are. But if they are, both heat treat
>methods could be as hard or harder than your HSS drill. Abrasives don't
>care about steel hardness for the most part.
>
>Regards,
>
>Randy, Las Vegas
>
>
>> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>>
>> There was supposed to be more to that post!
>>
>> I ended up making the initial dome in the nosepiece from simply and
>> carefully starting with the tip of a suitable drill bit chucked up in a
>> drill press, with the nosepiece firmly held in a vise on the stage. Final
>> finish was easy with the nosepiece lightly chucked in the drill press, and
>> a bit of emery cloth applied to the dome.
>>
>> Am I making it too simple?
>>
>> Rick
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece |
Hi Rick,
This has been a wonderful exchange. It shows that there are no right or wrong
answers to some of the challenges we face as isolated builders.
I think the nose piece modification demonstrates how this really is a learning
experience for all of us. We all used what tools we had at hand to accomplish
a similar task. If the resulting rivets are set properly then we all accomplished
the goal. Bravo!
Paul
Camas, WA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Lindstrom
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece
do not archive
Given the "bargain" nature of the Chinese made, disposable tools we're working
with here, cutting into the nosepiece was a snap. Even the chrome plating didn't
slow down the cutting of the bit much. But OK. I did cheat and use some cutting
oil.
As soft as the nosepieces are, the rivets are even softer! Good thing!
Rick
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Randy L. Thwing" <n4546v@mindspring.com>
>Sent: Oct 15, 2010 12:21 PM
>To: zenith-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Harbor Freight Riveter/how to alter nose piece
>
>
>do not archive
>
>Hey Rick:
>
>Your method is simple and completely legal as sanctioned by the Kitchen Sink
>Technology Institute.
>
>Where a problem could arise is if one runs into heat treated nose pieces.
>They could be case hardened (a very hard skin say .008" deep) or through
>hardened. I don't know if any are. But if they are, both heat treat
>methods could be as hard or harder than your HSS drill. Abrasives don't
>care about steel hardness for the most part.
>
>Regards,
>
>Randy, Las Vegas
>
>
>> <tigerrick@mindspring.com>
>>
>> There was supposed to be more to that post!
>>
>> I ended up making the initial dome in the nosepiece from simply and
>> carefully starting with the tip of a suitable drill bit chucked up in a
>> drill press, with the nosepiece firmly held in a vise on the stage. Final
>> finish was easy with the nosepiece lightly chucked in the drill press, and
>> a bit of emery cloth applied to the dome.
>>
>> Am I making it too simple?
>>
>> Rick
>
>
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