---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/03/11: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:49 AM - 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Scotsman) 2. 06:47 AM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Steve Freeman) 3. 07:44 AM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Scotsman) 4. 08:04 AM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Carlos Sa) 5. 08:31 AM - Jabiru Engine Seminar (Pete Krotje) 6. 09:45 AM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Craig Payne) 7. 11:13 AM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Gary Ray) 8. 11:25 AM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Jeff Davidson) 9. 02:51 PM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade () 10. 06:33 PM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (PatrickW) 11. 07:00 PM - Help please (Randy L. Thwing) 12. 07:26 PM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Terry Phillips) 13. 08:58 PM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Scotsman) 14. 09:40 PM - Re: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (Steve Freeman) 15. 10:43 PM - Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade (chuck960) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:26 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade From: "Scotsman" Hi List, Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy. I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress. I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies. Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly? Anyone's experience in this area? Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism. Anyone had this problem and what was your work around? For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy. Any comments would be appreciated. James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325410#325410 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:07 AM PST US From: "Steve Freeman" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade Don H. Why don't you take this one! :) I know how much you loved installing your canopy. James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located? Thank you, Steve Freeman -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scotsman Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:47 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade Hi List, Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy. I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress. I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies. Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly? Anyone's experience in this area? Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism. Anyone had this problem and what was your work around? For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy. Any comments would be appreciated. James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325410#325410 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade From: "Scotsman" Hi Steve, these guy I think...http://www.toddscanopies.com/ -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325428#325428 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:09 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade As far as I know, Todd is now the ZAC official supplier of canopies - and you can get them only through ZAC. Todd will not sell a Zodie canopy directly... Maybe James' is an old ZAC version, before this agreement was put in place? I am going from memory here, you might find the original post in the archives. Happy 2011 Carlos On 3 January 2011 09:43, Steve Freeman wrote: > steve.freeman@syntaxds.com> > > Don H. > > Why don't you take this one! :) I know how much you loved installing your > canopy. > > James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located? > > Thank you, > > Steve Freeman > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:34 AM PST US From: "Pete Krotje" Subject: Zenith-List: Jabiru Engine Seminar There are still two openings in the Marana AZ engine seminar starting this Thursday, January 6th. If anyone wants to attend just give a call here at 931-680-2800 or just come to Marana on Thursday morning. Pete Krotje Jabiru USA Sport Aircraft, LLC 931-680-2800 www.usjabiru.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:06 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade Correct, all the 650 canopies are from Todd's. As to fragility I was able to build my pre-650, pre-Todd's 601XL canopy without cracking by building templates (front and back) so I could bend my bows to match the natural shape of the unrolled canopy to within a 1/4 of an inch. Also I cranked the heat up in my garage till I was sweating. -- Craig From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Sa Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:01 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade As far as I know, Todd is now the ZAC official supplier of canopies - and you can get them only through ZAC. Todd will not sell a Zodie canopy directly... Maybe James' is an old ZAC version, before this agreement was put in place? I am going from memory here, you might find the original post in the archives. Happy 2011 Carlos On 3 January 2011 09:43, Steve Freeman wrote: Don H. Why don't you take this one! :) I know how much you loved installing your canopy. James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located? Thank you, Steve Freeman ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:34 AM PST US From: "Gary Ray" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade James I used 1/2 inch copper rolled plumbing to make temporary templates to get the fit of the the unrolled canopy to airframe match up. Then bent the aluminum to match. Also, on mine the edge clearance of some of the rear 5/16" mounting holes were within 7 mm of the edge. I changed this by making new aluminum flashing side rails that were slightly higher than the original 75mm. Mine were made at 95 mm that made the closest edge distance 27 mm. I drilled the 5/16" holes with a step drill after heating the canopy indoors over a warm air heat register and applying very little pressure so the drill bit would generate a little additional heat as it worked. It took about 10 seconds to drill each hole without mishap. No cracks. In operation since Sept. 06. As to the inward flexing of the canopy when open I installed a crossbar that works very well and can be seen at http://picasaweb.google.com/Papawobo/Variations# This also provides protection for the canopy when open in a higher wind and convenient closing. Good Luck Gary Ray, 601XL-B, WW 0.060 over Corvair Engine, Roy's 5th bearing, Falcon Heads, 155 hrs TTAF -----Original Message----- From: Scotsman Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 7:46 AM Subject: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade Hi List, Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy. I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress. I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies. Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly? Anyone's experience in this area? Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism. Anyone had this problem and what was your work around? For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy. Any comments would be appreciated. James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325410#325410 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:08 AM PST US From: Jeff Davidson Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade James, Mine is an XL canopy on an HD model. It bows slightly outward. I put handles on the inside to use to guide the canopy down onto the latch. I have seen other planes with a horizontal bar across the aft part of the canopy itself to keep the "spread" constant. Jeff D. do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Scotsman >Sent: Jan 3, 2011 7:46 AM >To: zenith-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade > > >Hi List, > >Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy. I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress. I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies. > >Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly? Anyone's experience in this area? > >Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism. Anyone had this problem and what was your work around? > >For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy. > >Any comments would be appreciated. > >James > >-------- >Cell +27 83 675 0815 > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325410#325410 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:59 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade I bought two canopies (don't ask why) from Todd's Canopies down in Florida. I scratch built my fuselage, and Todd's was a whole bunch cheaper. I hear Todd's is now the official vendor to Zenith, and the rumor is he no longer sells Zenith canopies direct. I will say he was a veritable fountain of knowledge on canopies and cutting and fitting them on the phone. He's sort of the Sensenich of canopies. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Freeman To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:43 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade > Don H. Why don't you take this one! :) I know how much you loved installing your canopy. James, I have never heard of "Todd's Canopies" who/where are they located? Thank you, Steve Freeman -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scotsman Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 5:47 AM To: zenith-list@matronics.com Subject: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade > Hi List, Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style canopy. I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress. I have heard that other people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies. Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when installed correctly? Anyone's experience in this area? Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch mechanism. Anyone had this problem and what was your work around? For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy. Any comments would be appreciated. James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325410#325410 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade From: "PatrickW" I put a 650 canopy on an XL fuselage. Here's pictures: http://www.zenith.aero/photo/albums/canopy-1 It wasn't easy, but I think the canopy is the hardest part anyways. Never could get anywhere near a close fit between the plastic and the front top skin. Had a gap big enough to put my arm through on each side, so I made a fiberglass fairing to cover it. It actually came out quite nice. In hindsight, I bet if the fit were better I'd have been tempted to put pressure on it and would have ended up cracking it..... I made new "hoops". Also made a fiberglass fairing to cover the "split" between the front and rear sections, and made a single piece metal fairing for where the aft canopy section. The two metal pieces that Zenith ships are nowhere near close. Also had to modify the front top skin by cutting about an inch off each side, and cutting off the "ears". Later I learned that the XL and the 650 are different in that area, and in all fairness I think I was one of the first guys to order the 650 canopy for the XL so things may be better by now. I do plan on redesigning the whole canopy at some point. Plenty of head room above, but not so much head room "on the side". Long ways in the future, though, but I've already got some ideas.... Knowing what I know now, if I could go back in time I think I would just do the 650 latch system and stick with the simpler one-piece XL style canopy. - Pat -------- Patrick Hoyt 601XL-b/650/BRS/Corvair N63PZ - 99.999% done.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325508#325508 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:40 PM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Help please Hello Listers: I am trying to contact Builder David Mikesell of Petaluma, CA. Does anyone have recent contact information? I have a phone number of 209-224-4485 and a email address of skyguynca@skyguynca.com but I get no replies from either. He has contributed to these forums. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Randy, Las Vegas ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:04 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade Hi James You might take a look at what Mirko did with his canopy. I believe that he used the original XL canopy. He added a new turtle deck, and cut the canopy to fit. I believe that he has posted some photos on the ZBAG photo site, as well as, a recent video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtFpxzeCKkI I think it looks great, and he tells me it seals up well. I might try something similar. Terry At 04:46 AM 1/3/2011 -0800, you wrote: >Hi List, > >Just wanted to see what people experience is with fitting the 650 style >canopy. I have just attempted this and ended up with a nice cracked >canopy as there is no way that the shape of the canopy roll will adhere to >the shape of the aluminum tube with undue stress. I have heard that other >people had experienced this and had more joy with Todd's Canopies. > >Anyway my question was whether the canopy feels flimsy or not when >installed correctly? Anyone's experience in this area? > >Second question...on lifting the canopy it springs inwards slightly >meaning that it will not close properly as it hits the top of the latch >mechanism. Anyone had this problem and what was your work around? > >For your information - I have not yet installed the front canopy aluminum >tube yet but at this point the canopy seems excessively fragile and I am >not sure that this single piece will sufficiently firm up the canopy. > >Any comments would be appreciated. > >James Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:34 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade From: "Scotsman" Thanks very much for the rapid replies guys. Unfortunately unless I want to buy another canopy I cannot bend the hoops so I am stuck with what I have. For me I think the solution lies with copying Patrick's approach which incidentally looks far better than the original set up. Suppose I will have to learn about fibreglassing! FYI - My canopy is quite recent as the upgrade kit canopy kit is about 5 months since I imported it. I am quite irritated by the canopy hoops. As far as I can see Zenith does not specify that the hoops will have to be bent by the builder otherwise why supply them pre-bent or at least supply instructions indicating that bending has to take place. I would assume that Zenith bent the hoops on a template and therefore the template must be incorrect. -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325524#325524 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:41 PM PST US From: "Steve Freeman" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade Hey there, You are by far not the first person to lament the lack of fit for the tubes to the canopy. My buddy Don who built a beautiful 601HDS said the Canopy was by far the most difficult part of the plane. He still gripes about it today and even has the templates he made to re-bend straight stock he had purchased to get a better fit. I am actually a little disappointed because I am now building a 650B and I was hoping they had improved on the canopy...it does not seem that is the case from all I have read today. One point of caution...On the 601HDS I previously built...I tried and failed (miserably) to create my own fiberglass front tilt based on George Pineo's design. If I had the knowledge then that I have now I think I would have done a far better job but I totally destroyed a canopy which played a major role in my decision to sell my 95+% plus finished plane (now flying down under in OZ!) to a flying group in Australia. After I effed up the canopy I lost the heart to finish the plane even though all that was left was the canopy, rigging, and re-wiring the panel. I think less than 100 hours but there is more to the story and won't bore you all with the details! MY point in telling you this is just to warn you to be very careful and take your time. Learn how to do glass well before you start building molds on your airframe. Try not to get frustrated and understand all of the other builders seem to have gone through this. ZAC really should do something about improving this set up but don't hold your breath and good luck getting any useful information out of them. But to be fair...If your fuselage is built even a little bit "off plans" it would be virtually impossible for ZAC to provide a perfect fit canopy. Because of this, I think it might be an unspoken truism that we are forced to fit the canopy to our individual airframes. Just my two cents - for whatever it is worth. Steve (650B - 902AL) Freeman Working on Fuselage I have the factory made upgraded spars. They are a great deal "beefier" than what I installed in my HDS. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: 650 Canopy/650 Canopy Upgrade From: "chuck960" Whats wrong with you guys? My 650 canopy fits quite nicely. Looks good too. Well actually it is the second plexy as I ruined the first one, (Expensive mistake) and I broke one of the hoops and had to bend a new one from scratch. And it's not really finished yet as it's clecoed together. In hindsight I think the one piece of information I needed that may have enabled me to do it right the first time was this. THE HOOPS MUST BE BENT TO MATCH THE NATURAL SHAPE OF THE PLEXYGLASS. The hoops in my kit were not even close in my opinion and I thought the plastic would give a little. Not!! Also there in only one way it fits. I mean you can't trim too much off one end and make it up on the other. But it does fit well if done correctly. I was upset but maybe it's just that I needed a practice piece to figure out how to do it well. I wonder how many hours ZAC spent on the phone over the years trying to explain how to do a canopy. A few hours spent putting together some instructions would have been time well spent. Chuck Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=325528#325528 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010125_290.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.