---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/11/11: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 AM - Chat Room (George Race) 2. 09:03 AM - Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Terry Phillips) 3. 09:48 AM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published () 4. 11:52 AM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (japhillipsga@aol.com) 5. 01:10 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 03:58 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 7. 05:40 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Lawrence Webber) 8. 06:12 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Ron Lendon) 9. 06:23 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Paul Mulwitz) 10. 06:44 PM - Re: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Paul Mulwitz) 11. 06:48 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Sabrina) 12. 07:33 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Ron Lendon) 13. 07:42 PM - Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Ron Lendon) 14. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Paul Mulwitz) 15. 08:19 PM - Re: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (Paul Mulwitz) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:01 AM PST US From: "George Race" Subject: Zenith-List: Chat Room Live Chat Room every Monday evening around 8:00 EDT http://www.mykitairplane.com Click on the Chat Room link at the top of the page. George ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:26 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer accident; follow the link on: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-2008107/#rapporten In my opinion it is an excellent report. I have also posted the IVW report, as well as, additional information to the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. Terry -- Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& flaps are done; Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:13 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published This is an investigation? I've seen better investigations into a purse-snatching ring. Where are the descriptions of the extent, type, and direction of damage? Any indications of sequential failure? Any torsional, compressive, or tensional irregularities? Metallurgical analyses? Popped rivets? Sheared bolts? Torn bolt holes? Rear carry-through compression? It took them three years to complete a report that could have been accurately summarized in one sentence----"It done broke." Disappointing at best. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Phillips To: Zenith-List: Matronics Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:59 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published > The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer accident; follow the link on: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-2 008107/#rapporten In my opinion it is an excellent report. I have also posted the IVW report, as well as, additional information to the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. Terry -- Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& flaps are done; Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published From: japhillipsga@aol.com I read the Dutch report and found it sufficiently informative. I may be the only builder and flyer that sees that the report says the ZAC host modific ations and upgrades though painful to perform are the solution. Maybe not, maybe so??? Not knowing much about metallurgy, force torsion and compressio n issues I have to rely on folks educated differently than I. I suppose tho se dull Dutch experts may have really screwed up by publishing this report and failing to ask our expert, Mr. Paul R., to approve their investigation and findings. I know I'd feel more secure if they had got some more opinion s from such experts as I fly my XL-B around the sky's of Georgia. Seems lik e about half of the 24 page report spoke to the issue of weak wing strength , weak rear spar attachment material, unbalanced ailerons and the propensit y for loose control cables in flexible wings to get even more slack and nur ture flutter conditions. I think the Dutch folks make it fairly clear that flutter took the wing off or did I miss something? I made the ZAC modificat ions and several others to my XL-B last year and fly her now. She flys well and stronge, but she always did. I also have a RV-8a I built and I think t he XL-B wing spar I assembled is about as strong, maybe stronger. Course, I don't suppose the value of my plane will ever rise much above salvage valu e for possible sale and we all have our ZBAG Busy Body folks to thank for t he many thousands of dollars of cost to each of us. Wonder if this whole bu siness could have been handled a different way? Lots of plane crash. Why w as the XL and ZAC singled out for this treatment? This is my last thought I 'm going to waste on the subject, fly happy and often, Bill Phillips -----Original Message----- From: paulrod36 Sent: Mon, Apr 11, 2011 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published This is an investigation? I've seen better investigations into a purse-snat ching ring. Where are the descriptions of the extent, type, and direction o f damage? Any indications of sequential failure? Any torsional, compressiv e, or tensional irregularities? Metallurgical analyses? Popped rivets? Shea red bolts? Torn bolt holes? Rear carry-through compression? It took them th ree years to complete a report that could have been accurately summarized in one sentence----"It done broke." Disappointing at best. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Phillips Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:59 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been publ ished The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer accident; follow the link on: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-200 8107/#rapporten In my opinion it is an excellent report. I have also posted the IVW report, as well as, additional information to the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. Terry -- Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& flaps are done; Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title =http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com"http:// forums.matronics.com _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.c om/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.ma tronics.com/c================ -= - The Zenith-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= -- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= -- http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= -- http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:32 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published Hi Bill, I agree with everything you said - I think. I admit I didn't really understand all the technical details of the Dutch report, but I think it points to flutter and weak wings as the cause of their particular accident. They also added a lot of details to the whole story that I hadn't heard before. One interesting point was the French in-flight failure that didn't result in a fatality because of a ballistic 'chute. The pilot of that incident reported flutter before the wing failed. Another interesting point (to me) was the report that the solid rivets holding the wing spars together failed in the shear direction. I can't imagine how this could happen in a properly designed wing. That could be just my shortcoming. I think they clearly said they "Think" flutter caused the start of the incident in the Netherlands. The FAA managers I have spoken to told me they had evidence of flutter in the accidents they investigated but they couldn't determine if the flutter caused the structure failure or the structure failure caused the flutter. They also told me in no uncertain terms that before the upgrade the aircraft did not meet the appropriate design standards and after the upgrade it does. For me the bottom line is we should all install the upgrade package in our planes. This is what the FAA demands, the folks at ZAC tell us to do and now the Dutch seem to agree with. The Dutch report singles out aileron balance and reinforcing RR-7 as key elements, but I think they also said the spar structure needs help too. Paul Nearly finished installing upgrade. On 4/11/2011 11:49 AM, japhillipsga@aol.com wrote: > I read the Dutch report and found it sufficiently informative. I may > be the only builder and flyer that sees that the report says the ZAC > host modifications and upgrades though painful to perform are the > solution. Maybe not, maybe so??? Not knowing much about metallurgy, > force torsion and compression issues I have to rely on folks educated > differently than I. I suppose those dull Dutch experts may have really > screwed up by publishing this report and failing to ask our expert, > Mr. Paul R., to approve their investigation and findings. I know I'd > feel more secure if they had got some more opinions from such experts > as I fly my XL-B around the sky's of Georgia. Seems like about half of > the 24 page report spoke to the issue of weak wing strength, weak rear > spar attachment material, unbalanced ailerons and the propensity for > loose control cables in flexible wings to get even more slack and > nurture flutter conditions. I think the Dutch folks make it fairly > clear that flutter took the wing off or did I miss something? I made > the ZAC modifications and several others to my XL-B last year and fly > her now. She flys well and stronge, but she always did. I also have a > RV-8a I built and I think the XL-B wing spar I assembled is about as > strong, maybe stronger. Course, I don't suppose the value of my plane > will ever rise much above salvage value for possible sale and we all > have our ZBAG Busy Body folks to thank for the many thousands of > dollars of cost to each of us. Wonder if this whole business could > have been handled a different way? Lots of plane crash. Why was the > XL and ZAC singled out for this treatment? This is my last thought I'm > going to waste on the subject, fly happy and often, Bill Phillips > > -----Original Message----- > From: paulrod36 > To: zenith-list > Sent: Mon, Apr 11, 2011 12:48 pm > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has > been published > > This is an investigation? I've seen better investigations into a > purse-snatching ring. Where are the descriptions of the extent, type, > and direction of damage? Any indications of sequential failure? Any > torsional, compressive, or tensional irregularities? Metallurgical > analyses? Popped rivets? Sheared bolts? Torn bolt holes? Rear > carry-through compression? It took them three years to complete a > report that could have been accurately summarized in one > sentence----"It done broke." Disappointing at best. > Paul R > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Terry Phillips > *To:* Zenith-List: Matronics > *Sent:* Monday, April 11, 2011 10:59 AM > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident > has been published > > > > > The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer accident; > follow the link on: > > http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-2008107/#rapporten > > > In my opinion it is an excellent report. > > I have also posted the IVW report, as well as, additional > information to > the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. > > Terry > > -- > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& flaps > are done; > Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive > http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/http://www.matronnbsp; via the > Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ > href="http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com > > _p; generous bsp; > title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/c================ > > > * > > t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > forums.matronics.com > k>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:23 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published What I thought was interesting was the fact I could see no upright attached to the wing attach bolt or did I just miss it? It also looks like the solid rivets were the smaller 1/8 rivets that I have seen in a few older kit #'s. >From day one I have said it was Flutter and still stand by that. Every 601 that has been opened up including 10 by me and we have seen nothing to point to stress anywhere so Flutter it was in my book. Jeff In a message dated 4/11/2011 12:48:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, paulrod36@msn.com writes: This is an investigation? I've seen better investigations into a purse-snatching ring. Where are the descriptions of the extent, type, and direction of damage? Any indications of sequential failure? Any torsional, compressive, or tensional irregularities? Metallurgical analyses? Popped rivets? Sheared bolts? Torn bolt holes? Rear carry-through compression? It took them three years to complete a report that could have been accurately summarized in one sentence----"It done broke." Disappointing at best. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: _Terry Phillips_ (mailto:ttp44@rkymtn.net) Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:59 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published (mailto:ttp44@rkymtn.net) > The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer accident; follow the link on: _http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-200 8107/#rapporten_ (http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-2008107/#rapporten) In my opinion it is an excellent report. I have also posted the IVW report, as well as, additional information to the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. Terry -- Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& flaps are done; Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive _http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/http://www.matronnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/) _p; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c================ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:53 PM PST US From: Lawrence Webber Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published HERE WE F%&%g GO AGAIN !!!! Larry From: psm@att.net Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published Hi Bill=2C I agree with everything you said - I think. I admit I didn't really unders tand all the technical details of the Dutch report=2C but I think it points to flutter and weak wings as the cause of their particular accident. They also added a lot of details to the whole story that I hadn't heard bef ore. One interesting point was the French in-flight failure that didn't re sult in a fatality because of a ballistic 'chute. The pilot of that incide nt reported flutter before the wing failed. Another interesting point (to me) was the report that the solid rivets holding the wing spars together fa iled in the shear direction. I can't imagine how this could happen in a pr operly designed wing. That could be just my shortcoming. I think they clearly said they "Think" flutter caused the start of the inci dent in the Netherlands. The FAA managers I have spoken to told me they ha d evidence of flutter in the accidents they investigated but they couldn't determine if the flutter caused the structure failure or the structure fail ure caused the flutter. They also told me in no uncertain terms that befor e the upgrade the aircraft did not meet the appropriate design standards an d after the upgrade it does. For me the bottom line is we should all install the upgrade package in our planes. This is what the FAA demands=2C the folks at ZAC tell us to do and now the Dutch seem to agree with. The Dutch report singles out aileron ba lance and reinforcing RR-7 as key elements=2C but I think they also said th e spar structure needs help too. Paul Nearly finished installing upgrade. On 4/11/2011 11:49 AM=2C japhillipsga@aol.com wrote: I read the Dutch report and found it sufficiently informative. I may be the only builder and flyer that sees that the report says the ZAC host modific ations and upgrades though painful to perform are the solution. Maybe not =2C maybe so??? Not knowing much about metallurgy=2C force torsion and comp ression issues I have to rely on folks educated differently than I. I suppo se those dull Dutch experts may have really screwed up by publishing this r eport and failing to ask our expert=2C Mr. Paul R.=2C to approve their inve stigation and findings. I know I'd feel more secure if they had got some mo re opinions from such experts as I fly my XL-B around the sky's of Georgia. Seems like about half of the 24 page report spoke to the issue of weak win g strength=2C weak rear spar attachment material=2C unbalanced ailerons and the propensity for loose control cables in flexible wings to get even more slack and nurture flutter conditions. I think the Dutch folks make it fair ly clear that flutter took the wing off or did I miss something? I made the ZAC modifications and several others to my XL-B last year and fly her now. She flys well and stronge=2C but she always did. I also have a RV-8a I bui lt and I think the XL-B wing spar I assembled is about as strong=2C maybe s tronger. Course=2C I don't suppose the value of my plane will ever rise muc h above salvage value for possible sale and we all have our ZBAG Busy Body folks to thank for the many thousands of dollars of cost to each of us. Won der if this whole business could have been handled a different way? Lots o f plane crash. Why was the XL and ZAC singled out for this treatment? This is my last thought I'm going to waste on the subject=2C fly happy and often =2C Bill Phillips -----Original Message----- From: paulrod36 Sent: Mon=2C Apr 11=2C 2011 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published This is an investigation? I've seen better investigations into a purse-snat ching ring. Where are the descriptions of the extent=2C type=2C and directi on of damage? Any indications of sequential failure? Any torsional=2C comp ressive=2C or tensional irregularities? Metallurgical analyses? Popped rive ts? Sheared bolts? Torn bolt holes? Rear carry-through compression? It took them three years to complete a report that could have been accurately summ arized in one sentence----"It done broke." Disappointing at best. Paul R ----- Original Message ----- From: Terry Phillips Sent: Monday=2C April 11=2C 2011 10:59 AM Subject: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been publ ished The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer accident=3B follow the link on: http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-200 8107/#rapporten In my opinion it is an excellent report. I have also posted the IVW report=2C as well as=2C additional information t o the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. Terry -- Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& flaps are done =3B Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/http://www.matronnbsp=3B via the Web title =http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com"http:// forums.matronics.com _p=3B generous bsp=3B title=http://www.matroni cs.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://ww w.matronics.com/c================ t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List forums.matronics.com k>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published From: "Ron Lendon" That's all well and good but I must point out, the Airplane in question was built to different standards (lighter material) than the LSA versions. Therefore postulating on these results is only academic opinion. Installing the upgrade is your choice here in the USA if your airplane is already flying. If you don't have the airworthiness certificate, you must, or you probably won't get one. These discussions can be misleading when apples and oranges are being compared. On a brighter note, making progress toward having a flyable XLB. -------- Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336677#336677 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:51 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published Hi Larry, If you have a problem with my post, perhaps you can find a more erudite way to express it. So, what exactly is your problem? Paul On 4/11/2011 5:37 PM, Lawrence Webber wrote: > HERE WE F%&%g GO AGAIN !!!! > > Larry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:07:01 -0700 > From: psm@att.net > To: zenith-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has > been published > > Hi Bill, > > I agree with everything you said - I think. I admit I didn't really > understand all the technical details of the Dutch report, but I think > it points to flutter and weak wings as the cause of their particular > accident. > > They also added a lot of details to the whole story that I hadn't > heard before. One interesting point was the French in-flight failure > that didn't result in a fatality because of a ballistic 'chute. The > pilot of that incident reported flutter before the wing failed. > Another interesting point (to me) was the report that the solid rivets > holding the wing spars together failed in the shear direction. I > can't imagine how this could happen in a properly designed wing. That > could be just my shortcoming. > > I think they clearly said they "Think" flutter caused the start of the > incident in the Netherlands. The FAA managers I have spoken to told > me they had evidence of flutter in the accidents they investigated but > they couldn't determine if the flutter caused the structure failure or > the structure failure caused the flutter. They also told me in no > uncertain terms that before the upgrade the aircraft did not meet the > appropriate design standards and after the upgrade it does. > > For me the bottom line is we should all install the upgrade package in > our planes. This is what the FAA demands, the folks at ZAC tell us to > do and now the Dutch seem to agree with. The Dutch report singles out > aileron balance and reinforcing RR-7 as key elements, but I think they > also said the spar structure needs help too. > > Paul > Nearly finished installing upgrade. > > > On 4/11/2011 11:49 AM, japhillipsga@aol.com > wrote: > > I read the Dutch report and found it sufficiently informative. I > may be the only builder and flyer that sees that the report says > the ZAC host modifications and upgrades though painful to > perform are the solution. Maybe not, maybe so??? Not knowing much > about metallurgy, force torsion and compression issues I have to > rely on folks educated differently than I. I suppose those dull > Dutch experts may have really screwed up by publishing this report > and failing to ask our expert, Mr. Paul R., to approve their > investigation and findings. I know I'd feel more secure if they > had got some more opinions from such experts as I fly my XL-B > around the sky's of Georgia. Seems like about half of the 24 page > report spoke to the issue of weak wing strength, weak rear spar > attachment material, unbalanced ailerons and the propensity for > loose control cables in flexible wings to get even more slack and > nurture flutter conditions. I think the Dutch folks make it fairly > clear that flutter took the wing off or did I miss something? I > made the ZAC modifications and several others to my XL-B last year > and fly her now. She flys well and stronge, but she always did. I > also have a RV-8a I built and I think the XL-B wing spar I > assembled is about as strong, maybe stronger. Course, I don't > suppose the value of my plane will ever rise much above salvage > value for possible sale and we all have our ZBAG Busy Body folks > to thank for the many thousands of dollars of cost to each of us. > Wonder if this whole business could have been handled a different > way? Lots of plane crash. Why was the XL and ZAC singled out for > this treatment? This is my last thought I'm going to waste on the > subject, fly happy and often, Bill Phillips > > -----Original Message----- > From: paulrod36 > To: zenith-list > > Sent: Mon, Apr 11, 2011 12:48 pm > Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer accident > has been published > > This is an investigation? I've seen better investigations into a > purse-snatching ring. Where are the descriptions of the extent, > type, and direction of damage? Any indications of sequential > failure? Any torsional, compressive, or tensional irregularities? > Metallurgical analyses? Popped rivets? Sheared bolts? Torn bolt > holes? Rear carry-through compression? It took them three years to > complete a report that could have been accurately summarized in > one sentence----"It done broke." Disappointing at best. > Paul R > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Terry Phillips > *To:* Zenith-List: Matronics > *Sent:* Monday, April 11, 2011 10:59 AM > *Subject:* Zenith-List: Final Report on the Markermeer > accident has been published > > > > > The IVW have published their final report on the Markermeer > accident; > follow the link on: > > http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/index.php/onderzoeken/inflight-break-up-2008107/#rapporten > > > In my opinion it is an excellent report. > > I have also posted the IVW report, as well as, additional > information to > the ZBAG Yahoo Group file section in the Markermeer Folder. > > Terry > > -- > Terry Phillips > ttp44~at~rkymtn.net > Corvallis MT > ZU-601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail& > flaps are done; > Upgrading wings& ailerons per AMD Safety Directive > http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/http://www.matronnbsp; via > the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ > href="http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com > > _p; generous bsp; > title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/c================ > > > * > > t=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > forums.matronics.com > k>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > * > > > * > > * > > target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:39 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published Hi Ron, I don't understand your comment that installing the upgrade is your choice here. The way I read the SAIB published by the FAA in November 2009 was if any pilot is caught flying a Zodiac XL without the upgrade installed they will have their license revoked. The way they worded it was they have determined that the Zodiac XL without the upgrade installed is not airworthy and any pilot who flies a non-airworthy plane will lose their pilot's license. This is what I called the "Nuclear Option" at the time. Did I misunderstand something? Paul On 4/11/2011 6:10 PM, Ron Lendon wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" > > That's all well and good but I must point out, the Airplane in question was built to different standards (lighter material) than the LSA versions. Therefore postulating on these results is only academic opinion. > > Installing the upgrade is your choice here in the USA if your airplane is already flying. If you don't have the airworthiness certificate, you must, or you probably won't get one. > > These discussions can be misleading when apples and oranges are being compared. > > On a brighter note, making progress toward having a flyable XLB. > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI > WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing > Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > Corvair Engine Prints: > http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336677#336677 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:48:18 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published From: "Sabrina" Hey guys... on a lighter note, I am putting together a Ken Burns type video short on Zenith for my Anthropology class at MIT. I would really appreciate it if you could each send me ONE picture of you next to/working on your project during the build--your favorite build photo, at any point during the construction! (Not a link, just your one favorite photo.) chicago2paris@msn.com It is light hearted at this point, aimed at celebrating our builds as opposed to a search for a smoking gun. Things are going great at MIT this semester as well, even better than last, so far. I will fly into Chicago to film some video clips on Monday the 18th. I think the EAA will be there as well to take some photos for their Sport Aviation magazine if the snow predicted for the upcoming weekend does not shift into early next week. As I told a couple of you off list, I am toying with the idea of trying to become the first MIT Aero/Astro student to skip out of Unified Engineering. It is a four class, two semester sophomore course load that covers basic aerodynamics, thermodynamics, signal processing and structures. I would really appreciate those photos--remember just one, hopefully with a big smile! 600/700/800 series, it does not matter. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336682#336682 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:55 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published From: "Ron Lendon" The way I understand it, it is the pilots option. It is a strong recommendation but not enforceable unless that particular airplane and pilot come under scrutiny of the FAA for some other reason. So yes the threat is implied but it is still your free choice as I understand it. I am not a lawyer but I do know a few people who have exercised their freedom to choose in regards to this issue. -------- Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336686#336686 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:17 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published From: "Ron Lendon" Paul, This is right from the FAA site: > Special Airworthiness Information Bulletins (SAIB) > > A Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) is an information tool that alerts, educates, and makes recommendations to the aviation community. SAIBs contain non-regulatory information and guidance that does not meet the criteria for an Airworthiness Directive (AD). Key words here are non-regulatory. FYI -------- Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Corvair Engine Prints: http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336687#336687 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:14 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published Hi Ron, I believe your analysis is exactly correct, but I think your "Strong recommendation" comment falls short of the mark. I know from my conversations with the actual players at FAA that they believe the original (?) XL design falls short of the ASTM standard regarding structural strength and the upgraded design meets the standard. All parties to this problem agree that all owners should install the upgrade. That includes the FAA, NTSB, Zenith/Zenair, and to a certain extent several foreign government civil aviation authorities. I know there are holdouts among Zodiac XL owners, but for the life of me I can't understand why. All of the facts and authorities point to the simple fact that the upgrade is necessary to make these planes safe. It is a big job to install the upgrade, and some people feel they can install an alternate design upgrade. Those that think the original design was OK are simply in denial of reality. Paul On 4/11/2011 7:31 PM, Ron Lendon wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" > > The way I understand it, it is the pilots option. It is a strong recommendation but not enforceable unless that particular airplane and pilot come under scrutiny of the FAA for some other reason. So yes the threat is implied but it is still your free choice as I understand it. I am not a lawyer but I do know a few people who have exercised their freedom to choose in regards to this issue. > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI > WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing > Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > Corvair Engine Prints: > http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336686#336686 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:43 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Final Report on the Markermeer accident has been published Hi Ron, The other side of that argument - "does not meet the criteria for an Airworthiness Directive (AD)" would apply to all experimental and LSA aircraft. Only type certificated aircraft can be the object of an AD. From the bureaucratic point of view, the whole Zodiac XL issue falls into the cracks. If it were just a kit plane the FAA would have probably ignored the whole thing. The fact that people could buy factory built S-LSA versions led them to the point that they had to do something but the existing regulatory environment didn't really allow them to do much. You see, it is the manufacturer that controls LSAs not the FAA. When they issued the SAIB they said, in effect, that AMD and the FAA required people to install the change. Since the kit version of the Zodiac is exactly the same as the S-LSA (if you don't count the difference between a factory built plane and one built buy the person who intends to fly it) the decisions made for the AMD version had to also apply to the kit plane, E-AB, version. This just didn't work when you put all the rules and lack of rules together. It was the first big test of the new LSA rules and a very sticky one from the FAA's perspective. That, in my opinion, is why they used the "Nuclear Option" of declaring the XL un-airworthy and threatening to ground any pilot caught flying it. If only the documents released by the FAA were easier to interpret we would all have the same understanding of the actual facts in this whole mess. Alas, what we got was government speak and a need for advanced degrees in aeronautical engineering to get the actual message. I know some people are holding on to their faith in Chris Heintz when he said there is nothing wrong with the XL design and continuing to fly the plane that the FAA has found un-airworthy. I wish it were something that could be easily fixed (that is to get them to install the upgrade) but apparently it will take more deaths to get the real message across. Paul On 4/11/2011 7:40 PM, Ron Lendon wrote: > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Ron Lendon" > > Paul, > > This is right from the FAA site: > > >> Special Airworthiness Information Bulletins (SAIB) >> >> A Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB) is an information tool that alerts, educates, and makes recommendations to the aviation community. SAIBs contain non-regulatory information and guidance that does not meet the criteria for an Airworthiness Directive (AD). > > Key words here are non-regulatory. > > FYI > > -------- > Ron Lendon, Detroit, MI > WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing > Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) > http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon > Corvair Engine Prints: > http://www.zenith.aero/profile/RonLendon > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=336687#336687 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.