Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:27 AM - Just A Few More Days To Make Your List Contribution... (Matt Dralle)
1. 10:03 AM - Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 (Steve Freeman)
2. 01:20 PM - Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 01:22 PM - Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 (Jeff Davidson)
4. 04:28 PM - Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 (Steve Freeman)
5. 04:53 PM - Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 (Paul Mulwitz)
6. 05:58 PM - Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 (Jeff Davidson)
7. 07:01 PM - Strakes, was Question on Aileron Stop 650 (Paul Mulwitz)
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| Subject: | Just A Few More Days To Make Your List Contribution... |
There is less than a week left in this year's List Fund Raiser and only a few short
days to grab one of the great Contribution Gifts available this year. Support
is still significantly lagging behind last year at this point but hopefully
it will pick up here towards the end. Please remember that it is solely the
Contributions of List members that keeps the Lists up and running as there
is no commercialism or advertising on the Matronics Lists and Forums.
The List Contribution web site is secure, fast, and easy and you can use a credit
card, Paypal:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
I want to thank everyone that has already made a generous contribution to support
the Lists!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics EMail List and Forum Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 |
Hi Guys,
I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron
Stop Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is this, the
opening that inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly
small and only allows for a small amount of left right movement.
I know there was a lot discussion recently about "ham fisted" pilots or
passengers kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this
small amount of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this
aircraft? With this part in place the control tab can only move left and
right about 5 mm.
I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need
very little movement to fly but this seems like a little much. Does this
control really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which
might put the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?
Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time for me
to install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
Thanks,
Steve Freeman
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 |
Hi Steve,
The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the
size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance. There is
specification later in the prints that shows how far the ailerons need
to move both up and down for proper control of the plane.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3.
> Aileron Stop Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is
> this, the opening that inhibits movement of the tab on the control
> stick is fairly small and only allows for a small amount of left right
> movement.
>
> I know there was a lot discussion recently about "ham fisted" pilots
> or passengers kicking the control stick but even with all of that said
> is this small amount of deflection all that is really needed to safely
> control this aircraft? With this part in place the control tab can
> only move left and right about 5 mm.
>
> I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick
> need very little movement to fly but this seems like a little much.
> Does this control really prevent people from overly aggressive stick
> maneuvers which might put the aircraft into flight conditions not
> recommended?
>
> Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time
> for me to install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Freeman
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 |
Steve,
I recently attended a talk given by John Clark of the NTSB. He is a member of
my local Chapter 186 of the EAA. According to John, the Aileron stop inside the
cabin is meant to reduce or eliminate stress on the rib that supports the aileron
bellcrank. Evidently that was a finding in at least some of the 5 accident
planes that he personally inspected. If you want more details, let me know
and I can have John contact you to explain in greater detail.
Jeff Davidson
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Freeman
Sent: Nov 25, 2011 1:00 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
Hi Guys,
I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop
Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is this, the opening that
inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly small and only allows
for a small amount of left right movement.
I know there was a lot discussion recently about ham fisted pilots or passengers
kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this small amount
of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this aircraft? With
this part in place the control tab can only move left and right about 5 mm.
I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need very
little movement to fly but this seems like a little much. Does this control
really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which might put
the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?
Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time for me to install
this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
Thanks,
Steve Freeman
Message 4
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| Subject: | Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 |
Hi Paul,
<< increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance>>
This is also on the plans but I don't understand. Assuming the airframe is
built according to plans it seems to me something like this should be at
least "close" to where it needs to be. The part I received from ZAC leaves
very little room for left to right deflection.
The area where this piece will be installed will be very difficult to access
for the top of modification required to enlarge that opening. Thank
goodness for the big access panel on the bottom or it would be virtually
impossible.
But with that said - does anyone have any experience with how much this
opening needs to be modified from what is supplied by ZAC?
ZAC does a lot of things right and some things wrong. To me this falls in
the latter category. I see no reason why this aileron stop should not be
sized correctly if the assumption is the plane was built to plans.
Additionally I think it would be a lot easier to make this hole smaller
(with a piece of .040 on either side of the hole to reduce the size of the
opening) rather than larger.
Thanks,
Steve
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
Hi Steve,
The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the size of
that opening to get the proper movement allowance. There is specification
later in the prints that shows how far the ailerons need to move both up and
down for proper control of the plane.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron
Stop Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is this, the
opening that inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly
small and only allows for a small amount of left right movement.
I know there was a lot discussion recently about "ham fisted" pilots or
passengers kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this
small amount of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this
aircraft? With this part in place the control tab can only move left and
right about 5 mm.
I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need
very little movement to fly but this seems like a little much. Does this
control really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which
might put the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?
Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time for me
to install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
Thanks,
Steve Freeman
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 |
Hi Steve,
I agree with your comments. I was trying to avoid pointing out that I
think this part is ridiculous. I did not install it on my plane even
though I did install the rest of the upgrade parts.
One problem that makes design of this part difficult is the simple fact
that it is a second set of deflection limits on a single set of parts -
the ailerons. If you made the hole the right size for the deflection
then you would also need to install an additional turnbuckle so you
could adjust both sides of the cable system going to the ailerons. It
seems you are asked to first set up the ailerons using one turnbuckle
and stops at the rear spar (channel) and then somehow figure out how to
adjust the opening in the second, central, stop device to match the
cables to the already set stops. It seems to be a poorly thought out
design to me.
I understand the comment that there were problems with the rib buckling
that holds the aileron bellcrank assembly. This was also addressed with
several new parts along with a heavier support for the assembly at the
rib in question.
Fortunately, these are experimental amateur built airplanes so each
builder gets to decide exactly what to do to his plane and what not to
do. It is not so simple for the company that sold these as S-LSA
devices, AMD. OOps, they went out of business, didn't they?
Paul
Camas, WA
XL in flight test - just over 20 hours.
On 11/25/2011 4:25 PM, Steve Freeman wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> << increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement
> allowance>>
>
> This is also on the plans but I don't understand. Assuming the
> airframe is built according to plans it seems to me something like
> this should be at least "close" to where it needs to be. The part I
> received from ZAC leaves very little room for left to right deflection.
>
> The area where this piece will be installed will be very difficult to
> access for the top of modification required to enlarge that opening.
> Thank goodness for the big access panel on the bottom or it would be
> virtually impossible.
>
> But with that said -- does anyone have any experience with how much
> this opening needs to be modified from what is supplied by ZAC?
>
> ZAC does a lot of things right and some things wrong. To me this
> falls in the latter category. I see no reason why this aileron stop
> should not be sized correctly if the assumption is the plane was built
> to plans. Additionally I think it would be a lot easier to make this
> hole smaller (with a piece of .040 on either side of the hole to
> reduce the size of the opening) rather than larger.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
> *From:*owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul
> Mulwitz
> *Sent:* Friday, November 25, 2011 2:17 PM
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the
> size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance. There is
> specification later in the prints that shows how far the ailerons need
> to move both up and down for proper control of the plane.
>
> Paul
> Camas, WA
>
> On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3.
> Aileron Stop Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is
> this, the opening that inhibits movement of the tab on the control
> stick is fairly small and only allows for a small amount of left right
> movement.
>
> I know there was a lot discussion recently about "ham fisted" pilots
> or passengers kicking the control stick but even with all of that said
> is this small amount of deflection all that is really needed to safely
> control this aircraft? With this part in place the control tab can
> only move left and right about 5 mm.
>
> I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick
> need very little movement to fly but this seems like a little much.
> Does this control really prevent people from overly aggressive stick
> maneuvers which might put the aircraft into flight conditions not
> recommended?
>
> Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time
> for me to install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Freeman
>
> * *
> * *
> * *
> * *
> * *
> Please Support Your Lists This Month nbsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click below to find out more Free Incentive Gifts AeroElectricwww.aeroelectric.com <http://www.aeroelectric.com><www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com>www.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/c= -Matt Dralle, List - The Zenith-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matron===================http://forums.matronics.com <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List> - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c= <http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650 |
Evidently AMD lives on as Eastman Aircraft. There is a web site and the building
and the address appear to be the same. I talked to Doug Dugger at Oshkosh.
He is the owner on the West Coast now. Michael Heintz evidently has gone back
to Europe.
Jeff D
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Nov 25, 2011 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
Hi Steve,
I agree with your comments. I was trying to avoid pointing out that I think this
part is ridiculous. I did not install it on my plane even though I did install
the rest of the upgrade parts. do not archive
One problem that makes design of this part difficult is the simple fact that it
is a second set of deflection limits on a single set of parts - the ailerons.
If you made the hole the right size for the deflection then you would also need
to install an additional turnbuckle so you could adjust both sides of the
cable system going to the ailerons. It seems you are asked to first set up the
ailerons using one turnbuckle and stops at the rear spar (channel) and then
somehow figure out how to adjust the opening in the second, central, stop device
to match the cables to the already set stops. It seems to be a poorly thought
out design to me.
I understand the comment that there were problems with the rib buckling that holds
the aileron bellcrank assembly. This was also addressed with several new
parts along with a heavier support for the assembly at the rib in question.
Fortunately, these are experimental amateur built airplanes so each builder gets
to decide exactly what to do to his plane and what not to do. It is not so
simple for the company that sold these as S-LSA devices, AMD. OOps, they went
out of business, didn't they?
Paul
Camas, WA
XL in flight test - just over 20 hours.
On 11/25/2011 4:25 PM, Steve Freeman wrote:
Hi Paul,
<< increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance>>
This is also on the plans but I dont understand. Assuming the airframe is built
according to plans it seems to me something like this should be at least close
to where it needs to be. The part I received from ZAC leaves very little room
for left to right deflection.
The area where this piece will be installed will be very difficult to access for
the top of modification required to enlarge that opening. Thank goodness for
the big access panel on the bottom or it would be virtually impossible.
But with that said does anyone have any experience with how much this opening
needs to be modified from what is supplied by ZAC?
ZAC does a lot of things right and some things wrong. To me this falls in the
latter category. I see no reason why this aileron stop should not be sized correctly
if the assumption is the plane was built to plans. Additionally I think
it would be a lot easier to make this hole smaller (with a piece of .040 on
either side of the hole to reduce the size of the opening) rather than larger.
Thanks,
Steve
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
Hi Steve,
The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the size of that
opening to get the proper movement allowance. There is specification later
in the prints that shows how far the ailerons need to move both up and down for
proper control of the plane.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
Hi Guys,
I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop
Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is this, the opening that
inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly small and only allows
for a small amount of left right movement.
I know there was a lot discussion recently about ham fisted pilots or passengers
kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this small amount
of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this aircraft? With
this part in place the control tab can only move left and right about 5 mm.
I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need very
little movement to fly but this seems like a little much. Does this control
really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which might put
the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?
Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time for me to install
this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
Thanks,
Steve Freeman
Please Support Your Lists This Month nbsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click below to find out more Free Incentive Gifts AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com<www.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/c= -Matt Dralle, List - The Zenith-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matron===================<NBSP; href="http://forums.matronics.com" http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c=
Message 7
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| Subject: | Question on Aileron Stop 650 |
That Heintz clan can be hard to keep up with and get straight in your head.
I am glad to report I am finally happy with my Zodiac XL. For a long
time there I was afraid it would wind up being a flower planter in my
front yard.
After dealing with simple engine problems I finally reached the flight
test stage where I needed to characterize how my plane flies. The
flights have been mostly non-events and not at all exciting up to this
point, but there was one where the engine ran very roughly and cut out
several times due to a loose carburetor. I also had a leaky oil cooler
hose but that showed up after initial taxi testing before the first flight.
What I found was there was absolutely no yaw stability in my plane and
also no roll stability. That means if you get it flying straight and
level and upset it in yaw or roll it doesn't even try to return to the
straight and level condition. With this condition I found it very hard
to get landings to work properly since I couldn't get it going straight
down the runway for touchdown of either the mains or nose gear.
My first "Solution" to this problem was to add a white line on top of
the engine cowl so I could see which way the plane was pointing. That
helped, but I still was unhappy. Then I added "Strakes" to the bottom
rear of the fuselage. The hope was to make it want to fly straight. It
seems to have worked to some extent because I found I didn't have to
work to get it flying straight - it just came out that way. This was
due to a little help from the strakes and my own control input. The
plane will still not recover from any upset but I think it is a lot
nicer to fly now.
Here are a couple of pictures of the strakes I made. The material I
used was .050 6061T6. I mounted it using the existing holes in the
bottom skin and longerons but I increased the rivet size from A4 to A5.
I didn't patent my strakes, so anybody who wants is welcome to use this
idea at their own risk.
Paul
Camas, WA
On 11/25/2011 5:55 PM, Jeff Davidson wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Jeff Davidson<jeffrey_davidson@earthlink.net>
>
> Evidently AMD lives on as Eastman Aircraft. There is a web site and the building
and the address appear to be the same. I talked to Doug Dugger at Oshkosh.
He is the owner on the West Coast now. Michael Heintz evidently has gone
back to Europe.
>
> Jeff D
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Mulwitz
> Sent: Nov 25, 2011 7:50 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> I agree with your comments. I was trying to avoid pointing out that I think
this part is ridiculous. I did not install it on my plane even though I did install
the rest of the upgrade parts. do not archive
>
> One problem that makes design of this part difficult is the simple fact that
it is a second set of deflection limits on a single set of parts - the ailerons.
If you made the hole the right size for the deflection then you would also
need to install an additional turnbuckle so you could adjust both sides of the
cable system going to the ailerons. It seems you are asked to first set up
the ailerons using one turnbuckle and stops at the rear spar (channel) and then
somehow figure out how to adjust the opening in the second, central, stop device
to match the cables to the already set stops. It seems to be a poorly thought
out design to me.
>
> I understand the comment that there were problems with the rib buckling that
holds the aileron bellcrank assembly. This was also addressed with several new
parts along with a heavier support for the assembly at the rib in question.
>
> Fortunately, these are experimental amateur built airplanes so each builder gets
to decide exactly what to do to his plane and what not to do. It is not so
simple for the company that sold these as S-LSA devices, AMD. OOps, they went
out of business, didn't they?
>
> Paul
> Camas, WA
> XL in flight test - just over 20 hours.
>
> On 11/25/2011 4:25 PM, Steve Freeman wrote:
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> << increase the size of that opening to get the proper movement allowance>>
>
> This is also on the plans but I dont understand. Assuming the airframe is built
according to plans it seems to me something like this should be at least close
to where it needs to be. The part I received from ZAC leaves very little
room for left to right deflection.
>
> The area where this piece will be installed will be very difficult to access
for the top of modification required to enlarge that opening. Thank goodness
for the big access panel on the bottom or it would be virtually impossible.
>
> But with that said does anyone have any experience with how much this opening
needs to be modified from what is supplied by ZAC?
>
> ZAC does a lot of things right and some things wrong. To me this falls in the
latter category. I see no reason why this aileron stop should not be sized
correctly if the assumption is the plane was built to plans. Additionally I think
it would be a lot easier to make this hole smaller (with a piece of .040
on either side of the hole to reduce the size of the opening) rather than larger.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:17 PM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Qurestion on Aileron Stop 650
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> The instructions that came with the upgrade kit said to increase the size of
that opening to get the proper movement allowance. There is specification later
in the prints that shows how far the ailerons need to move both up and down
for proper control of the plane.
>
> Paul
> Camas, WA
>
> On 11/25/2011 10:00 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have a part to install in my 650 airframe, 6-S-5-2 and 6-S-5-3. Aileron Stop
Support and Aileron Stop, respectively. MY question is this, the opening that
inhibits movement of the tab on the control stick is fairly small and only
allows for a small amount of left right movement.
>
> I know there was a lot discussion recently about ham fisted pilots or passengers
kicking the control stick but even with all of that said is this small amount
of deflection all that is really needed to safely control this aircraft?
With this part in place the control tab can only move left and right about 5 mm.
>
> I have flown right seat in a 601HDS for many hours hours and the stick need very
little movement to fly but this seems like a little much. Does this control
really prevent people from overly aggressive stick maneuvers which might put
the aircraft into flight conditions not recommended?
>
> Any help, thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Now is the time for me to
install this so I want to be sure I should be before I do.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Freeman
> Please Support Your Lists This Month nbsp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click below to find out more Free Incentive Gifts AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com<www.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/c= -Matt Dralle, List - The Zenith-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matron===================<NBSP; href="http://forums.matronics.com" http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c
>
>
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