---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/29/11: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:13 AM - Re: Rear Canopy 650 (Scotsman) 2. 05:14 AM - Re: Rear Canopy 650 (Scotsman) 3. 05:18 AM - Re: Cracked Canopy (Scotsman) 4. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Jay Bannister) 5. 06:13 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Paul Mulwitz) 6. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Steve Freeman) 7. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Larry McFarland) 8. 07:38 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Jerry) 9. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Paul Mulwitz) 10. 09:54 AM - Re: Cracked Canopy (Randy L. Thwing) 11. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Paul Mulwitz) 12. 10:36 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (wadejones) 13. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Steve Freeman) 14. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Cracked Canopy (Randy L. Thwing) 15. 01:05 PM - polishing (Carlos Sa) 16. 07:01 PM - Re: polishing (PatrickW) 17. 07:03 PM - Re: polishing (Terry Phillips) 18. 07:47 PM - Re: polishing (Carlos Sa) 19. 07:54 PM - Re: Re: polishing (Carlos Sa) 20. 10:35 PM - Re: Cracked Canopy (Scotsman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:16 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rear Canopy 650 From: "Scotsman" Hi Steve, sorry for the late post I only got back onto the forum recently. I have been having exactly the same problems as you. I have done everything up to where the home built help video leaves it and to be honest my project has sat in the garage for a couple of months due to frustration with this element. The insert pieces that zenith supplied for bridging the gap between the rear canopy and the rear top fuselage skin appear to be useless/irrelevant. I have been using cardboard sheet and tape to produce a mock up of the alu pieces that will have to use to bridge the gap. It all seems a bit slap dash and I have managed to cut the canopy quite short (plus scratch the canopy) which leaves little margin between the end of the alu piece and the edge of the rear canopy. With regards to your other thread on cracking of the canopy....yep...been there too. Once with too much pressure of my own fault and the second time just because the material is pathetically fragile. Some of the guys in South Africa actually said that you should be using a blunt drill bit which I thought sounded dodgy but then they gave me a link to an EAA video on the US site which also recommended this. I will find the link and post it. If you want to share you further pains and work arounds feel free to email me on James.Roberts at standardbank.co.za Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361884#361884 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Rear Canopy 650 From: "Scotsman" Here is the link that the guys provided me with http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200008869001. Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361885#361885 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:45 AM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy From: "Scotsman" hi guys, I had received advice to blunt the drill bit so that it grinds as opposed to bites into the material. Some of the local guys referred me to this US video on the subject. http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200008869001 I have not tried it yet but believe that it may be correct as my second crack in the canopy occurred with almost no pressure and a brand new unused high quality drill bit. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361886#361886 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy From: Jay Bannister James, I used a very sharp pointed drill bit to drill pilot holes. This bit was recommended for drilling acrylic plastic and it worked well for me. Others have recommended a really flat point drill bit. That tells me that either pointed or flat is OK, but not in between, ie "normal" bits. I was able t o drill right through the plastic and into the aluminum tube, which you pro bably couldn't do with the flat pointed bit. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Scotsman Sent: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 7:20 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy o.za> hi guys, I had received advice to blunt the drill bit so that it grinds as opposed to bites into the material. Some of the local guys referred me to t his US video on the subject. http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200008869001 I have not tried it yet but believe that it may be correct as my second cra ck in the canopy occurred with almost no pressure and a brand new unused high qua lity drill bit. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361886#361886 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:53 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Guys, The classic trick for drilling acrylic is to reduce the "Rake" on the drill bits used. This means the bit cannot bite into the plastic but rather takes either a very shallow chip or just melts through the plastic. I hand grind my own drill points, so it is easy for me to reduce the rake to zero on drills for acrylic. I'm not sure that is what I did. Instead, What I tend to do is to use a very slow speed on my battery powered drill and also I tend to use step drills for this kind of drilling. Step drilling can be done either by using a store bought step drill (looks like a Christmas tree) or buy using steps of drill size so you are only taking a small bite out of the existing hole to enlarge it a little bit. The reduced rake trick can be simulated by running the drill backwards. This ensures you don't take any bite at all out of the plastic but melt your way through. It is an extreme approach, but works just fine. Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 5:40 AM, Jay Bannister wrote: > James, > > I used a very sharp pointed drill bit to drill pilot holes. This bit > was recommended for drilling acrylic plastic and it worked well for > me. Others have recommended a really flat point drill bit. That > tells me that either pointed or flat is OK, but not in between, ie > "normal" bits. I was able to drill right through the plastic and into > the aluminum tube, which you probably couldn't do with the flat > pointed bit. > > Jay > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scotsman > To: zenith-list > Sent: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 7:20 am > Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy > > --> Zenith-List message posted by: "Scotsman"> > > hi guys, I had received advice to blunt the drill bit so that it grinds as > opposed to bites into the material. Some of the local guys referred me to this > US video on the subject. > > http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200008869001 > > I have not tried it yet but believe that it may be correct as my second crack in > the canopy occurred with almost no pressure and a brand new unused high quality > drill bit. > > I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. > > Cheers > > > James > > -------- > Cell +27 83 675 0815 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361886#361886 > > > _blank">www.aeroelectric.com > " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List > tp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:39 AM PST US From: "Steve Freeman" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Guys, I have seen many notes on this topic suggesting "step drills" (are we talking about a Uni-Bit) but I have never seen a step drill small enough for the holes required for the canopy. Can anyone provide a link to where I can find a small hole step drill? When my canopy cracked I don't think it had anything to do with the bit I was using. What I "think" happened is a small piece of debris got trapped between the glass and the rear canopy flashing which caused a pressure point. As I drilled this caused a small lever point and the canopy cracked at that point. I suspect this is the case because when I examined the location a small bead of plastic (but big enough to do the job) fell from the space between the canopy and the flashing. Until that point and at all points after the drilling was not an issue but I will admit I am nervous about enlarging the holes to accept the hardware. Steve From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Guys, The classic trick for drilling acrylic is to reduce the "Rake" on the drill bits used. This means the bit cannot bite into the plastic but rather takes either a very shallow chip or just melts through the plastic. I hand grind my own drill points, so it is easy for me to reduce the rake to zero on drills for acrylic. I'm not sure that is what I did. Instead, What I tend to do is to use a very slow speed on my battery powered drill and also I tend to use step drills for this kind of drilling. Step drilling can be done either by using a store bought step drill (looks like a Christmas tree) or buy using steps of drill size so you are only taking a small bite out of the existing hole to enlarge it a little bit. The reduced rake trick can be simulated by running the drill backwards. This ensures you don't take any bite at all out of the plastic but melt your way through. It is an extreme approach, but works just fine. Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 5:40 AM, Jay Bannister wrote: James, I used a very sharp pointed drill bit to drill pilot holes. This bit was recommended for drilling acrylic plastic and it worked well for me. Others have recommended a really flat point drill bit. That tells me that either pointed or flat is OK, but not in between, ie "normal" bits. I was able to drill right through the plastic and into the aluminum tube, which you probably couldn't do with the flat pointed bit. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Scotsman Sent: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 7:20 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy hi guys, I had received advice to blunt the drill bit so that it grinds as opposed to bites into the material. Some of the local guys referred me to this US video on the subject. http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200008869001 I have not tried it yet but believe that it may be correct as my second crack in the canopy occurred with almost no pressure and a brand new unused high quality drill bit. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361886#361886 _blank">www.aeroelectric.com " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:22 AM PST US From: "Larry McFarland" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Paul, You can find a small Uni-Bit drill at Harbor Freight. See link. These work very well in canopy plastics. http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?keyword=unibit Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Freeman Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 8:37 AM Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Guys, I have seen many notes on this topic suggesting "step drills" (are we talking about a Uni-Bit) but I have never seen a step drill small enough for the holes required for the canopy. Can anyone provide a link to where I can find a small hole step drill? When my canopy cracked I don't think it had anything to do with the bit I was using. What I "think" happened is a small piece of debris got trapped between the glass and the rear canopy flashing which caused a pressure point. As I drilled this caused a small lever point and the canopy cracked at that point. I suspect this is the case because when I examined the location a small bead of plastic (but big enough to do the job) fell from the space between the canopy and the flashing. Until that point and at all points after the drilling was not an issue but I will admit I am nervous about enlarging the holes to accept the hardware. Steve From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Guys, The classic trick for drilling acrylic is to reduce the "Rake" on the drill bits used. This means the bit cannot bite into the plastic but rather takes either a very shallow chip or just melts through the plastic. I hand grind my own drill points, so it is easy for me to reduce the rake to zero on drills for acrylic. I'm not sure that is what I did. Instead, What I tend to do is to use a very slow speed on my battery powered drill and also I tend to use step drills for this kind of drilling. Step drilling can be done either by using a store bought step drill (looks like a Christmas tree) or buy using steps of drill size so you are only taking a small bite out of the existing hole to enlarge it a little bit. The reduced rake trick can be simulated by running the drill backwards. This ensures you don't take any bite at all out of the plastic but melt your way through. It is an extreme approach, but works just fine. Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 5:40 AM, Jay Bannister wrote: James, I used a very sharp pointed drill bit to drill pilot holes. This bit was recommended for drilling acrylic plastic and it worked well for me. Others have recommended a really flat point drill bit. That tells me that either pointed or flat is OK, but not in between, ie "normal" bits. I was able to drill right through the plastic and into the aluminum tube, which you probably couldn't do with the flat pointed bit. Jay -----Original Message----- From: Scotsman Sent: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 7:20 am Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy hi guys, I had received advice to blunt the drill bit so that it grinds as opposed to bites into the material. Some of the local guys referred me to this US video on the subject. http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1200008869001 I have not tried it yet but believe that it may be correct as my second crack in the canopy occurred with almost no pressure and a brand new unused high quality drill bit. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it. Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361886#361886 _blank">www.aeroelectric.com " target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================= -Matt Dralle, List - The Zenith-List Email Forum utilities such as List Photoshare, and much much --> http://www.matron================== http://forums.matronics.com - List Contribution Web generous nbsp; --> http://www.matronics.com/c= ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:23 AM PST US From: Jerry Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Steve, I used a small regular well used dull bit (#20 I think) to drill the pilot holes and then a Uni Bit to enlarge the holes for the mounting hardware. Jerry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:12 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Steve, The final size of the holes in the plastic canopy is around 3/8 inch. This allows the tinnerman washers to rest on the flat flange to hold the canopy in place. The angled (cone) shape of the tinnerman washer holds the canopy approximately in place while allowing a little movement as temperature changes create different expansion in the plastic and metal parts. I've never seen a step drill that was so large it couldn't enlarge a hole from #40 to 3/8 inch. I tend to use ones from Harbor Freight because I'm too cheap to buy the expensive Unibits. Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 6:37 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: > > I have seen many notes on this topic suggesting "step drills" (are we > talking about a Uni-Bit) but I have never seen a step drill small > enough for the holes required for the canopy. Can anyone provide a > link to where I can find a small hole step drill? > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:32 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy do not archive Hello Listers: Attached is the drill geometry LP Plastics, the people who make the windows, suggest. The important part is the "dubbing" of the cutting lip rake angle. An off the shelf drill has a positive cutting lip angle which will "dig" into soft materials like brass, AL, or plexi. By dubbing the rake angle to "0" or a slightly negative angle, the cutting edge "scrapes" the material in front of it rather than digging in which is what cracks plexi. Since this scraping action does not result in the drill self feeding or pulling itsself into the material, it only cuts by you applying pressure. Dub the cutting edge, apply pressure judiciously, and always back up the work with a piece of wood so the drill doesn't burst through upon penetration. The drill still "drills" the hole by removing meteral, it doesn't burn through it. To see many other diagrams to clarify, Google search "drill dubbing", lots comes up. RE Lexan: Arn't there two very good reasons Lexan isn't used for aircraft cabin windows? 1. It scratches much easier than plexi. 2. And more importantly, it's what is used for bullet proof and shatter proof glass, so in a crash, rescuers can't break through to get occupants out, that's especially bad if there's a fire! Regards, Randy, Las Vegas ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:07 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Randy, Mostly the reason for not using Lexan (polycarbonate) on home built airplanes is the expense. You are correct that it is soft and scratches easily. For that reason it is necessary to "Hard Coat" it with polyurethane in any normal application. This solves the scratch problem but adds cost. You can get an idea of the cost increment if you go to your local eyeglasses store. They charge a significant increment price for polycarbonate lenses over standard (mostly acrylic) lenses. Even in small quantities this is often a $50 increment. I don't understand the issue of being "Bullet Proof". In reality it is just as easy, maybe easier, to hack away at Lexan as Plexiglass. Best regards, Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 9:48 AM, Randy L. Thwing wrote: > RE Lexan: Arn't there two very good reasons Lexan isn't used for > aircraft cabin windows? > 1. It scratches much easier than plexi. > 2. And more importantly, it's what is used for bullet proof and > shatter proof glass, so in a crash, rescuers can't break through to > get occupants out, that's especially bad if there's a fire! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:01 AM PST US From: "wadejones" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy A 1/4" thickness will stop a 38 caliber ,sounds bullet proof to me . Wade ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Randy, Mostly the reason for not using Lexan (polycarbonate) on home built airplanes is the expense. You are correct that it is soft and scratches easily. For that reason it is necessary to "Hard Coat" it with polyurethane in any normal application. This solves the scratch problem but adds cost. You can get an idea of the cost increment if you go to your local eyeglasses store. They charge a significant increment price for polycarbonate lenses over standard (mostly acrylic) lenses. Even in small quantities this is often a $50 increment. I don't understand the issue of being "Bullet Proof". In reality it is just as easy, maybe easier, to hack away at Lexan as Plexiglass. Best regards, Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 9:48 AM, Randy L. Thwing wrote: RE Lexan: Arn't there two very good reasons Lexan isn't used for aircraft cabin windows? 1. It scratches much easier than plexi. 2. And more importantly, it's what is used for bullet proof and shatter proof glass, so in a crash, rescuers can't break through to get occupants out, that's especially bad if there's a fire! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 12/29/11 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:00 AM PST US From: "Steve Freeman" Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Hi Paul, Thanks for the input. I was thinking of the original pilot hole not the finished hole size. Thanks for clarifying. Steve From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Mulwitz Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2011 9:21 AM Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy Steve, The final size of the holes in the plastic canopy is around 3/8 inch. This allows the tinnerman washers to rest on the flat flange to hold the canopy in place. The angled (cone) shape of the tinnerman washer holds the canopy approximately in place while allowing a little movement as temperature changes create different expansion in the plastic and metal parts. I've never seen a step drill that was so large it couldn't enlarge a hole from #40 to 3/8 inch. I tend to use ones from Harbor Freight because I'm too cheap to buy the expensive Unibits. Paul Camas, WA On 12/29/2011 6:37 AM, Steve Freeman wrote: I have seen many notes on this topic suggesting "step drills" (are we talking about a Uni-Bit) but I have never seen a step drill small enough for the holes required for the canopy. Can anyone provide a link to where I can find a small hole step drill? ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:26 AM PST US From: "Randy L. Thwing" Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy do not archive In reality it is just as easy, maybe easier, to hack away at Lexan as Plexiglass. Best regards, Paul Camas, WA I don't agree with that. Here's some more purely generic info. Regards, Randy, Las vegas Discover the expert in you. What Is Lexan Made Out Of? By Neal Litherland, eHow Contributor Lexan is a commonly used replacement for glass and even Plexiglas in a variety of areas. Stronger and more resilient, but still providing many benefits of glass, Lexan is used in industry, in communication, and even signage. But the process used to make this material, as well as the definition of what Lexan is and isn't, can sometimes get a little complicated. 1.. Lexan a.. Lexan is a name for a sheet of polycarbonate resin that is generally considered to be a shatterproof material. Though still technically a plastic, Lexan is stronger and more durable than either traditional glass or the plastic Plexiglas, and it is used in situations where extra survivability of the material is considered worth the extra cost, such as "bulletproof" windows in police stations or armored vehicles. Process a.. Lexan is made through a patented chemical process. By reacting a chemical compound called Bisphenol A with carbonyl chloride (also known as phosgene), the base resin that makes up Lexan is produced. While sheets of this resin material can be cut into a variety of lengths, only those which are between .03 inches (or 0.75 mm.) and .48 inches (or 12 mm.) are ever referred to as actually being Lexan. Development a.. Lexan was first developed in the 1950s by General Electric Plastics. Dr. Daniel Fox was attempting to create a new, more durable plastic to be used as a wire coating when he made the discovery in the GE labs. This exact same breakthrough had happened independently in Germany, where a Dr. Herman Schnell of Bayer was equally impressed by the extreme toughness of the new resin material. Though a scramble for patents ensued, GE Plastics became the main manufacturer and distributor of Lexan. Properties a.. Though it is a great deal tougher, Lexan bears a very strong resemblance to Plexiglas, also known as Lucite or Perspex. Lexan often has a shiny, acrylic look though it is a great deal tougher than any acrylic. Lexan will scratch in a manner similar to Plexiglas, however. Throughout a variety of tests, Lexan has been shown to be nearly shatterproof, and to even withstand bullets depending on the size of the weapon and distance the shot was fired from. One of the other properties of Lexan, and one which can be a major health risk, is that the resin may leach bisphenol A. This chemical, which is used in Lexan's manufacturing process, has been linked to cancer by several studies. Uses a.. Given its durability, Lexan has been used in a huge variety of products and industries. Lexan is a favorite of the aerospace industry for making cockpits and windscreens that are used in a variety of aircraft. More commonplace items, such as the original Apple Ipod (which had a white plastic body made of Lexan) also use this shatterproof plastic. Additionally, Lexan is popular in racing, being used for both helmets and windshields to reduce the weight that is active in the vehicle. Also, whether or not fans of the show are aware of it, Lexan is often used on shows such as "Myth Busters" and "Deadliest Warrior," where the clear, protective sheets are used to keep the hosts safe from explosions and flying debris. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:11 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Zenith-List: polishing Hello, all I thought I'd post some information on polishing. I have been polishing flat sheets before actually drilling holes and, in some instances, even before cutting the parts. Up to a couple of months ago, I was using "Mother's", a mag polishing paste. I was applying it with paper towels driven by an electric drill. That worked pretty well, but I thought a "real" polishing process should makes things go a little (hopefully a lot) quicker. So, I invested on a polisher, similar to these (typical Chinese product): http://www.drillspot.com/products/349756/Westward_1VUC2_Automotive_Polisher_Buffer http://www.seaskytools.net/car-polisher/379219.html I also got Nuvite F9 and C, one pound of each, and four wool bonnets. All of this cost me close to CA$500. I have thus far polished two sheets 4'x8', and am finishing the F9 phase on a 4'x4' piece. The F9 jar was gone half way through the 4'x4', so it was good for approximately 72 sqft. I believe I will be able to finish the 4'x4' and still have some C compound left (not to mention that I dropped the jar on the floor and wasted one or two spoonfuls of the stuff). Clearly, I use less C than I use F9. In terms of time required, I believe Nuvite and Mother's are on the same ball park. I did not keep proper records, but I'd say they both take one to two hours per sqft. Nuvite, however, makes an incredible mess, particularly the F9 phase: it creates a very fine dust that covers the whole room you are working in. And black dust bunnies are all over the place when you are using a fairly new bonnet. The mess produced by Mother's is much more "believable": the paper towels only disintegrate if they catch a corner of the sheet or any other obstacle left in its way, and the dust produced is negligible. The Nuvite dust requires me to wear a dust mask, or it will irritate my throat. And even with the mask, after 1.5 h, I stop because they bother me (the mask AND the dust). Also, Nuvite contains petroleum distillates, so the fumes can bother some people (my wife, for instance). Both approaches are awfully boring. Bottom line, if I knew then what I know now, I would have used only Mother's: *it is clean*, and a couple of jars will be enough for a 4'x8' sheet - less than CA$20 taxes included (15%) at the local hardware store, no shipping charges. Did I mention it is clean? Attached a picture of some tail parts, polished with Mother's Happy New Year! Carlos CH601-HD, plans ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:30 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: polishing From: "PatrickW" Here's pictures of mine, just using Nuvite F9 for now. Will use the finer grades after phase 1 is done. http://www.zenith.aero/photo/albums/polish-and-paint - Pat -------- Patrick Hoyt 601XLb/Corvair N63PZ - 99.999% done.... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361953#361953 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:03 PM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith-List: polishing Hi Carlos 'Just wondering if you tried the Chinese polishers with the Mothers. If so, how did it work out? I notice Harbor Freight offers a similar polisher for $50 right now. Also, Googling "Mother's mag polishing paste" I find "Mothers 5101 Mag & Aluminum Polish Paste" in 5 and 10 oz containers. Is that the product you used? And, if so, are you referring to the 5 or the 10 oz container? Your parts look great to me. Terry Carlos Sa wrote: > > > I thought I'd post some information on polishing. > > Bottom line, if I knew then what I know now, I would have used only > Mother's: _it is clean_, and a couple of jars will be enough for a > 4'x8' sheet - less than CA$20 taxes included (15%) at the local > hardware store, no shipping charges. Did I mention it is clean? > > Attached a picture of some tail parts, polished with Mother's > > > Happy New Year! > > > Carlos > CH601-HD, plans -- Terry Phillips ttp444~at~gmail.com Corvallis MT ZU-601XLB/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail & flaps are done; Upgrading wings & ailerons per the AMD Safety Directive http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:25 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: polishing Hello, Terry I never used a wool bonnet with Mother's - it might work, I just never tried. I am afraid it will create black dust bunnies - not something I am not very fond of. I use a 5 " circular pad with velcro hooks on it, then a piece of foam, about 1" thick, and then the best quality paper towel I can find, cut in 5"x5" squares. I put the paste on the paper, and work on areas of about 1 to 1.5 square feet at a time. When the aluminum is clean from the paste and black residue, I stop, throw the paper away and get a new one. And, contrary to the bonnet technique, I lay the paper/foam/disk attachment flat on against the metal, not at an angle. It is as fast (or slow) as Nuvite. Attached a picture of work in progress (tail parts). The product you found seems to be "it", although the jar I have says the product # is 35100. It could be because (1) it is packaged with French and English labels (for Canada) and / or (2) they changed the product code - I haven't bought one in many months - the last time was probably summer 2010. And I was referring to the 5 oz jar; it sells for CA$8 (it used to be CA$7) at Canadian Tire's Aeronautics dept. *http://tinyurl.com/6p25g2w* Regards Carlos On 29 December 2011 22:00, Terry Phillips wrote: > Hi Carlos > > 'Just wondering if you tried the Chinese polishers with the Mothers. If > so, how did it work out? I notice Harbor Freight offers a similar polisher > for $50 right now. > > Also, Googling "Mother's mag polishing paste" I find "Mothers 5101 Mag & > Aluminum Polish Paste" in 5 and 10 oz containers. Is that the product you > used? And, if so, are you referring to the 5 or the 10 oz container? > > Your parts look great to me. > > Terry > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:27 PM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: polishing Pat, I have looked closely at your pictures - the Zodie looks awesome! I liked the results you achieved, so much so that it was part of my motivation for trying Nuvite. But I think can achieve the same level of "shinyness" with Mother's - with less mess. Or die trying... ;-) Seriously, *if* I am not happy with Mother's results, I can apply the step after C (is it "S"?), and still avoid F9 and C. BTW, grade C is much less messy than F9, and I assume S (?) is pretty clean. Cheers Carlos On 29 December 2011 21:58, PatrickW wrote: > > Here's pictures of mine, just using Nuvite F9 for now. Will use the finer > grades after phase 1 is done. > > http://www.zenith.aero/photo/albums/polish-and-paint > > - Pat > > -------- > Patrick Hoyt > 601XLb/Corvair > N63PZ - 99.999% done.... > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:19 PM PST US Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Cracked Canopy From: "Scotsman" How have you guys dealt with riveting on the canopy? The sides of the front and rear canopy would need to be riveted but after my past experiences cracking the canopy I am really reluctant to do anything. Now having learnt from the thread I will use the recommended drill bit and techniques but I am still worried that the pressure generated by the rivet on the canopy will cause the canopy to crack. Any recommendations and practical experience would be gratefully received. Cheers James -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=361971#361971 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.