Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Gary Ray)
2. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Randy)
4. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Steve Freeman)
5. 08:26 AM - Re: Sensitive Elevator (aprazer)
6. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Phil Maxson)
7. 09:11 AM - Re: Sensitive Elevator (andrewtub)
8. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Craig Payne)
9. 09:27 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Steve Freeman)
10. 09:34 AM - Re: Sensitive Elevator (andrewtub)
11. 09:43 AM - Re: Sensitive Elevator (John Goodings)
12. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (FLYaDIVE)
13. 11:35 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (FLYaDIVE)
14. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Russell Johnson)
15. 12:29 PM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (FLYaDIVE)
16. 01:07 PM - Re: Sensitive Elevator (andrewtub)
17. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Steve Freeman)
18. 03:55 PM - Re: Sensitive Elevator (andrewtub)
19. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
20. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Andrew
The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight. Even in
a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no trim
adjustments.
Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The relative
displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full aileron
deflection at slow speed
is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not irritating.
The overall impression is good.
Mine displays completely neutral stability which makes it feel nimble but
does not self correct and return to level flight by itself when disturbed.
For that reason I did put Dynon's autopilot in. It is easier to check a map
or look up a frequency without deviating from course and flight level.
Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net
Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair 0.060 over, Roy's 5th bearing,
Mark's Falcon Heads, Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA Carburetor, 175 Hrs TT
-----Original Message-----
From: andrewtub
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
Seriously, I had no intention to fuel a fire. It's just a mere suggestion
to better a feature of the plane. In allot of the reviews I read it is
mentioned that the controls could be more balanced. I get the same from
three local zodiac pilots. Why not try to improve when the opportunity is
there?
In response to running out of stick... the elev will still have full range
of motion to the up and down stops specified by zenith.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367106#367106
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
If I read your email correct.....
I have thought about doing the exact same thing for my next 2 planes I
build.... What you are suggesting makes sense because it would allow more
stick movement for the same elevator movement thus making the stick less
sensitive which is a good thing.
Jeff
In a message dated 2/24/2012 6:43:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davgray@sbcglobal.net writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Ray" <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
Andrew
The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight. Even
in
a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no trim
adjustments.
Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The relative
displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full
aileron
deflection at slow speed
is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not
irritating.
The overall impression is good.
Mine displays completely neutral stability which makes it feel nimble but
does not self correct and return to level flight by itself when disturbed.
For that reason I did put Dynon's autopilot in. It is easier to check a
map
or look up a frequency without deviating from course and flight level.
Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net
Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair 0.060 over, Roy's 5th bearing,
Mark's Falcon Heads, Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA Carburetor, 175 Hrs TT
-----Original Message-----
From: andrewtub
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
Seriously, I had no intention to fuel a fire. It's just a mere suggestion
to better a feature of the plane. In allot of the reviews I read it is
mentioned that the controls could be more balanced. I get the same from
three local zodiac pilots. Why not try to improve when the opportunity is
there?
In response to running out of stick... the elev will still have full
range
of motion to the up and down stops specified by zenith.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367106#367106
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
"making the stick less sensitive which is a good thing"
Not for me! I love the way the stick feels. Wouldn't change it for the
world.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
If I read your email correct.....
I have thought about doing the exact same thing for my next 2 planes I
build.... What you are suggesting makes sense because it would allow
more stick movement for the same elevator movement thus making the stick
less sensitive which is a good thing.
Jeff
In a message dated 2/24/2012 6:43:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davgray@sbcglobal.net writes:
<davgray@sbcglobal.net>
Andrew
The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight.
Even in
a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no
trim
adjustments.
Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The
relative
displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full
aileron
deflection at slow speed
is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not
irritating.
The overall impression is good.
Mine displays completely neutral stability which makes it feel
nimble but
does not self correct and return to level flight by itself when
disturbed.
For that reason I did put Dynon's autopilot in. It is easier to
check a map
or look up a frequency without deviating from course and flight
level.
Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net
Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair 0.060 over, Roy's 5th bearing,
Mark's Falcon Heads, Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA Carburetor, 175 Hrs TT
-----Original Message-----
From: andrewtub
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:33 PM
To: zenith-list@matronics.com
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
Seriously, I had no intention to fuel a fire. It's just a mere
suggestion
to better a feature of the plane. In allot of the reviews I read it
is
mentioned that the controls could be more balanced. I get the same
from
three local zodiac pilots. Why not try to improve when the
opportunity is
there?
In response to running out of stick... the elev will still have
full range
of motion to the up and down stops specified by zenith.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367106#367106
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
This whole thread has been confusing to me. Why would you want to change
the characteristics of the controls before flying the controls? This is
purely a subjective issue and you won't know if you have improved the
performance as you will have no original point of reference. I haven't
flown left seat in a 601 for many years but I have flown right seat for many
hours and I can tell you the controls are responsive without being
"twitchy." Even though it takes minor stick movement to make big changes
there is no difficulty establishing fine control. I think having to "throw"
the controls for longer distances would make an already tight cockpit even
tighter. I think you could be hunting unicorns here but even with that
said therein lies the beauty of experimental aircraft. Go forth and BUILD!
Steve
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
"making the stick less sensitive which is a good thing"
Not for me! I love the way the stick feels. Wouldn't change it for the
world.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: Afterfxllc@aol.com
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
If I read your email correct.....
I have thought about doing the exact same thing for my next 2 planes I
build.... What you are suggesting makes sense because it would allow more
stick movement for the same elevator movement thus making the stick less
sensitive which is a good thing.
Jeff
In a message dated 2/24/2012 6:43:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
davgray@sbcglobal.net writes:
Andrew
The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight. Even in
a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no trim
adjustments.
Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The relative
displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full aileron
deflection at slow speed
is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not irritating.
The overall impression is good.
Mine displays completely neutral stability which makes it feel nimble but
does not self correct and return to level flight by itself when disturbed.
For that reason I did put Dynon's autopilot in. It is easier to check a map
or look up a frequency without deviating from course and flight level.
Gary Ray davgray@sbcglobal.net
Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair 0.060 over, Roy's 5th bearing,
Mark's Falcon Heads, Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA Carburetor, 175 Hrs TT
-----Original Message-----
From: andrewtub
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
Seriously, I had no intention to fuel a fire. It's just a mere suggestion
to better a feature of the plane. In allot of the reviews I read it is
mentioned that the controls could be more balanced. I get the same from
three local zodiac pilots. Why not try to improve when the opportunity is
there?
In response to running out of stick... the elev will still have full range
of motion to the up and down stops specified by zenith.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367106#367106
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref
<http://www.matronhref=%22http:/forums.matronics.com%22%3ehttp:/forums.matro
nics.com> "http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Greetings Andrew,
Keep us informed as to what the factory has to say about your suggestion. It is
an interesting concept!
Mack
--------
The poh-oh-unemployed farm boy from Idaho
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367134#367134
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
I agree with Dr. Gary Ray. When flying=2C the "unbalanced" controls are no
t a problem for me. I frequently hold the control stick below the handle g
rips because the force required is so low. A new pilot flying an XL will f
requently over control it. It happens almost every time a person grabs the
stick for the first time in my plane. I say=2C "You just have to think ab
out it=2C and it will turn."
This falls into the category of "stuff that seems important when building
=2C but is not important when flying." I wrote about this in a chapter in
William Wynne's=2C Corvair Flight Operations Manual. Many things fall into
this category for me: single stick/Dual stick=2C single throttle/dual thro
ttle=2C standard engine rotation/left turning. I worried about these=2C bu
t they just don't matter to me when flying.
My advice: build and fly. Staying with the plans makes for the simplest (q
uickest) build.
Phil Maxson
601XL-B/Corvair
Center Stick=2C Hingeless Ailerons
Northwest New Jersey
> From: davgray@sbcglobal.net
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
> Date: Fri=2C 24 Feb 2012 06:41:45 -0500
>
>
> Andrew
>
> The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight. Even
in
> a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no trim
> adjustments.
> Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The relative
> displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full aile
ron
> deflection at slow speed
> is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not irritatin
g.
> The overall impression is good.
<<SNIP>>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
The gods have spoken. From my understanding, It looks as if Zenith has addressed
the issue and will soon release a "part" on the 650 that will better balance
the controls. I hope this will be applicable to the 601 series.
Here is the response I received from Zenith:
Hi Andrew,
There are a couple things at play here that most people lump into "sensitivity"
and they are actually two distinctly different things and you have to be very
careful trying to change it as one affects the other. There is "balance" and
there is "sensitivity" and the two are very different but one changes the other.
You might know this but I will explain the difference and I think you will
see the problems with your plans.
When I say balance, I mean comparing the stick loads for the ailerons versus the
elevator. Sensitivity is the amount of stick movement to get a certain roll
rate. You are correct in what you are thinking about changing the sensitivity
but as you said, the stick loads will be lowered. The XL/650 controls are not
balanced to begin with. The elevator is lighter than the ailerons and what you
are talking about doing will further unbalance the stick loads. You don't want
to do remove sensitivity at the expense of making the stick loads too unbalanced.
We have been looking at this very issue with the controls. Part of this has been
done and are included in the next revision of the 650 drawings, they should
be released next week. The part that is in the new drawings will balance the stick
loads but doesn't address the elevator sensitivity.
I really like how the 650 flys with just the balanced stick loads. I think it will
surprise you how much differently the controls feel when the loads are balanced.
Even though the elevator sensitivity isn't changed, having the stick loads
about the same you will tend to have less issues with the sensitivity.
One thing that you will need to really watch out for in moving the holes for the
elevator cables on the stick is the cable routing. There isn't a lot of room
and you might have conflicts with the other controls and the structure that may
require new fairleads or pulleys. You can make this change if you want but
realize the other effects that the changes will make, not all of them will be
what you want and may well make your controls "feel" worse.
Caleb Gebhardt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367137#367137
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
> The gods have spoken.
In other words "when all else fails ask the factory" ;-)
-- Craig
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Hi Phil.
Can you elaborate on "single throttle - Dual throttle" Issue. What about
Single Brakes dual brakes. I am spending a great deal of time and effort
installing dual brakes and I am beginning to think it not worth it.
Steve
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maxson
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
I agree with Dr. Gary Ray. When flying, the "unbalanced" controls are not a
problem for me. I frequently hold the control stick below the handle grips
because the force required is so low. A new pilot flying an XL will
frequently over control it. It happens almost every time a person grabs the
stick for the first time in my plane. I say, "You just have to think about
it, and it will turn."
This falls into the category of "stuff that seems important when building,
but is not important when flying." I wrote about this in a chapter in
William Wynne's, Corvair Flight Operations Manual. Many things fall into
this category for me: single stick/Dual stick, single throttle/dual
throttle, standard engine rotation/left turning. I worried about these, but
they just don't matter to me when flying.
My advice: build and fly. Staying with the plans makes for the simplest
(quickest) build.
Phil Maxson
601XL-B/Corvair
Center Stick, Hingeless Ailerons
Northwest New Jersey
> From: davgray@sbcglobal.net
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
> Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:41:45 -0500
>
>
> Andrew
>
> The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight. Even in
> a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no trim
> adjustments.
> Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The relative
> displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full
aileron
> deflection at slow speed
> is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not
irritating.
> The overall impression is good.
<<SNIP>>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
LOL, yep!
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
>
> > The gods have spoken.
> >
> >
>
> In other words "when all else fails ask the factory" ;-)
>
> -- Craig
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367141#367141
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Andrew:
Good work. The overly sensitive elevator is an undesirable trait if the
aircraft is aimed at the "low-time pilot and first-time builder" - that is
a quote from Chris Heintz. It might not be a bad idea to run your mod
past Chris/Zenith people, just in case there is some other consideration
not appreciated. And, as a long-time Cessna driver, I can sympathize with
the undesirably insensitive controls of the C-150/152/172. Sports cars
and Mack trucks come to mind. Perhaps my problem in the early days of our
CH601HD stemmed from relatively sensitive pitch combined with rather
insensitive roll. Cessnas are insensitive in both.
John Goodings, C-FGPJ, CH601HD with R912S, Carp/Ottawa/Orillia.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
In other words. When stupid ideas run through your head Call The Factory...
Better yet the designer.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:34 PM, andrewtub <andrewtub@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> LOL, yep!
>
>
> craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> >
> > > The gods have spoken.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > In other words "when all else fails ask the factory" ;-)
> >
> > -- Craig
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367141#367141
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
If one thinks a 601 is 'sensitive' they better not fly an RV or a Grumman
or a Pits or a Night Twister or an Extra or any plane that is RESPONSIVE.
Responsive not sensitive.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 12:10 PM, andrewtub <andrewtub@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The gods have spoken. From my understanding, It looks as if Zenith has
> addressed the issue and will soon release a "part" on the 650 that will
> better balance the controls. I hope this will be applicable to the 601
> series.
>
> Here is the response I received from Zenith:
>
> Hi Andrew,
> There are a couple things at play here that most people lump into
> "sensitivity" and they are actually two distinctly different things and you
> have to be very careful trying to change it as one affects the other. There
> is "balance" and there is "sensitivity" and the two are very different but
> one changes the other. You might know this but I will explain the
> difference and I think you will see the problems with your plans.
>
> When I say balance, I mean comparing the stick loads for the ailerons
> versus the elevator. Sensitivity is the amount of stick movement to get a
> certain roll rate. You are correct in what you are thinking about changing
> the sensitivity but as you said, the stick loads will be lowered. The
> XL/650 controls are not balanced to begin with. The elevator is lighter
> than the ailerons and what you are talking about doing will further
> unbalance the stick loads. You don't want to do remove sensitivity at the
> expense of making the stick loads too unbalanced.
>
> We have been looking at this very issue with the controls. Part of this
> has been done and are included in the next revision of the 650 drawings,
> they should be released next week. The part that is in the new drawings
> will balance the stick loads but doesn't address the elevator sensitivity.
>
> I really like how the 650 flys with just the balanced stick loads. I think
> it will surprise you how much differently the controls feel when the loads
> are balanced. Even though the elevator sensitivity isn't changed, having
> the stick loads about the same you will tend to have less issues with the
> sensitivity.
>
> One thing that you will need to really watch out for in moving the holes
> for the elevator cables on the stick is the cable routing. There isn't a
> lot of room and you might have conflicts with the other controls and the
> structure that may require new fairleads or pulleys. You can make this
> change if you want but realize the other effects that the changes will
> make, not all of them will be what you want and may well make your controls
> "feel" worse.
>
> Caleb Gebhardt
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367137#367137
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>=0ATo: zenith-list@matronics.com=0ASent:
Fri, February 24, 2012 1:35:25 PM=0ASubject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitiv
e Elevator=0A=0AIf one thinks a 601 is 'sensitive' -they better not fly a
n RV or a Grumman or a =0APits or a Night Twister or an Extra or any plane
that is-RESPONSIVE. =0A-Responsive-not-sensitive.=0A=0A++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++=0A=0A=0A-Responsive not sensitive=0A-=0AReminds m
e of years ago when I was one of the instructors for our remote control =0A
club.=0AI had a pattern plane setup on a transmitter with-dual rates, fli
p the switch on =0Aand-the airplane was quite docile, flip it off and it
became very responsive.=0A-=0AAfter one of the students would become conf
ident that they could fly anything =0Aonce the trainer plane was mastered,
I would let them fly the pattern ship with =0Athe dual rates on. They would
usually get the hang of it rather quickly. Then I =0Awould flip the switch
off, and watch out!!!=0A=0AThe last thing I would show them was to move th
e balance weights back to about =0A38 percent of MAC, now you were talking
about something that was sensitive to =0Afly.=0A=0AR. Johnson
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
You are correct Russel
One does have to learn to fly the BASICS - TRAINERS before they advance.
That is what the C152 was all about.
I have been flying R/C for over 40 years, trained 100's and the EASIEST
planes to fly are PATTERN SHIPS. They go where YOU put them, you don't
have to over correct for dihedral or try to guess where the plane is going
to be when you do a roll.
NOW... Who in their right mind goes out and buys a kit without first
getting a ride in the plane they intend to build. And who in their right
mind doesn't become VERY proficient in that type of plane before they
become a TEST PILOT in the plane they just built. OR do they intend to
strap that plane on some other dumb-ass with all those HOMEMADE
modifications. After all, the OTHER Test Pilot has 100 Hrs in Type but NOT
in Homemade Modification MAKE.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Russell Johnson <entecrj@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> *From:* FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Fri, February 24, 2012 1:35:25 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
>
> If one thinks a 601 is 'sensitive' they better not fly an RV or a Grumman
> or a Pits or a Night Twister or an Extra or any plane that is RESPONSIVE.
> Responsive not sensitive.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> Responsive not sensitive
>
>
> Reminds me of years ago when I was one of the instructors for our remote
> control club.
>
> I had a pattern plane setup on a transmitter with dual rates, flip the
> switch on and the airplane was quite docile, flip it off and it became very
> responsive.
>
>
> After one of the students would become confident that they could fly
> anything once the trainer plane was mastered, I would let them fly the
> pattern ship with the dual rates on. They would usually get the hang of it
> rather quickly. Then I would flip the switch off, and watch out!!!
>
> The last thing I would show them was to move the balance weights back to
> about 38 percent of MAC, now you were talking about something that was
> sensitive to fly.
>
> R. Johnson
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Yea, what kind of "DUMBASS" would make HOMEMADE modifications to a plane in the
first place with out consulting the manufacture. Kinda like some of these "stupid"
"DUMBASS"'s that would but in the middle of a conversation with out knowing
all of the facts of the matter.
[quote="BARRY CHECK 6"]You are correct RusselOne does have to learn to fly the
BASICS -TRAINERSbefore they advance. That is what the C152 was all about.
I have been flying R/C for over 40 years, trained 100's and the EASIEST planes
to fly are PATTERN SHIPS. They go where YOU put them, you don't have to over correct
for dihedral or try to guess where the plane is going to be when you do
a roll.
NOW... Who in their right mind goes out and buys a kit without first getting a
ride in the plane they intend to build. And who in their right mind doesn't become
VERYproficient in that type of plane before they become a TEST PILOT in the
plane they just built. OR do they intend to strap that plane on some other
dumb-ass with all those HOMEMADE modifications. After all, the OTHER Test Pilot
has 100 Hrs in Type but NOT in Homemade Modification MAKE.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Russell Johnson wrote:
> From: FLYaDIVE
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com (zenith-list@matronics.com)
> Sent: Fri, February 24, 2012 1:35:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator
>
> If one thinks a 601 is 'sensitive' they better not fly an RV or a Grumman or
a Pits or a Night Twister or an Extra or any plane that isRESPONSIVE. Responsivenotsensitive.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> Responsive not sensitive
>
>
> Reminds me of years ago when I was one of the instructors for our remote control
club.
> I had a pattern plane setup on a transmitter withdual rates, flip the switch
on andthe airplane was quite docile, flip it off and it became very responsive.
> After one of the students would become confident that they could fly anything
once the trainer plane was mastered, I would let them fly the pattern ship with
the dual rates on. They would usually get the hang of it rather quickly. Then
I would flip the switch off, and watch out!!!
>
> The last thing I would show them was to move the balance weights back to about
38 percent of MAC, now you were talking about something that was sensitive
to fly.
>
> R. Johnson
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> > tp://forums.matronics.com
> > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
>
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367165#367165
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
What kind of dumbass post such nonsense to a public forum?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrewtub
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 2:06 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
Yea, what kind of "DUMBASS" would make HOMEMADE modifications to a plane in
the first place with out consulting the manufacture. Kinda like some of
these "stupid" "DUMBASS"'s that would but in the middle of a conversation
with out knowing all of the facts of the matter.
[quote="BARRY CHECK 6"]You are correct RusselOne does have to learn to fly
the BASICS -TRAINERSbefore they advance. That is what the C152 was
all about. I have been flying R/C for over 40 years, trained 100's and
the EASIEST planes to fly are PATTERN SHIPS. They go where YOU put them,
you don't have to over correct for dihedral or try to guess where the plane
is going to be when you do a roll.
NOW... Who in their right mind goes out and buys a kit without first getting
a ride in the plane they intend to build. And who in their right mind
doesn't become VERYproficient in that type of plane before they become a
TEST PILOT in the plane they just built. OR do they intend to strap that
plane on some other dumb-ass with all those HOMEMADE modifications. After
all, the OTHER Test Pilot has 100 Hrs in Type but NOT in Homemade
Modification MAKE.
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Russell Johnson wrote:
> From: FLYaDIVE
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com (zenith-list@matronics.com)
> Sent: Fri, February 24, 2012 1:35:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator
>
> If one thinks a 601 is 'sensitive' they better not fly an RV or a
Grumman or a Pits or a Night Twister or an Extra or any plane that
isRESPONSIVE. Responsivenotsensitive.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> Responsive not sensitive
>
>
> Reminds me of years ago when I was one of the instructors for our remote
control club.
> I had a pattern plane setup on a transmitter withdual rates, flip the
switch on andthe airplane was quite docile, flip it off and it became
very responsive.
> After one of the students would become confident that they could fly
anything once the trainer plane was mastered, I would let them fly the
pattern ship with the dual rates on. They would usually get the hang of it
rather quickly. Then I would flip the switch off, and watch out!!!
>
> The last thing I would show them was to move the balance weights back to
about 38 percent of MAC, now you were talking about something that was
sensitive to fly.
>
> R. Johnson
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> > tp://forums.matronics.com
> > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
>
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367165#367165
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
steve.freeman(at)syntaxds wrote:
> What kind of dumbass post such nonsense to a public forum?
>
> Steve
>
> --
My point exactly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367186#367186
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Steve it would simply be a matter of preference it wouldn't effect the
amount of travel the elevator has just would take more input from the pilot
to
achieve the full deflection. One could make the argument that less travel
on the stick could cause an inadvertent over control and thus stress the
airframe. After the upgrade the stick travel is much less thus making the
stick travel a lot less. You could do the same thing to the ailerons to al
low
more stick travel left to right also if you wanted to.
In a message dated 2/24/2012 11:01:48 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
steve.freeman@syntaxds.com writes:
This whole thread has been confusing to me. Why would you want to change
the characteristics of the controls before flying the controls? This is
purely a subjective issue and you won=99t know if you have improved t
he
performance as you will have no original point of reference. I haven
=99t flown
left seat in a 601 for many years but I have flown right seat for many hou
rs
and I can tell you the controls are responsive without being =9Ctwitc
hy.=9D
Even though it takes minor stick movement to make big changes there is no
difficulty establishing fine control. I think having to =9Cthrow
=9D the controls
for longer distances would make an already tight cockpit even tighter. I
think you could be hunting unicorns here but even with that said therein
lies the beauty of experimental aircraft. Go forth and BUILD!
Steve
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
"making the stick less sensitive which is a good thing"
Not for me! I love the way the stick feels. Wouldn't change it for the
world.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: _Afterfxllc@aol.com_ (mailto:Afterfxllc@aol.com)
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
If I read your email correct.....
I have thought about doing the exact same thing for my next 2 planes I
build.... What you are suggesting makes sense because it would allow more
stick movement for the same elevator movement thus making the stick less
sensitive which is a good thing.
Jeff
In a message dated 2/24/2012 6:43:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_davgray@sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:davgray@sbcglobal.net) writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "Gary Ray" <_davgray@sbcglobal.net_
(mailto:davgray@sbcglobal.net) >
Andrew
The controls on my 601XLB require only small inputs during flight. Even
in
a 60 degree bank it only requires two fingers for pressure and no trim
adjustments.
Compare that to C & P models where the nose drops fast. The relative
displacement of the controls is pretty close. The pressure for full
aileron
deflection at slow speed
is higher than the elevator with my hinge-less ailerons but not
irritating.
The overall impression is good.
Mine displays completely neutral stability which makes it feel nimble but
does not self correct and return to level flight by itself when disturbed.
For that reason I did put Dynon's autopilot in. It is easier to check a
map
or look up a frequency without deviating from course and flight level.
Gary Ray _davgray@sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:davgray@sbcglobal.net)
Zenith 601XL-B, William Wynne Corvair 0.060 over, Roy's 5th bearing,
Mark's Falcon Heads, Marvel Schebler MA3-SPA Carburetor, 175 Hrs TT
-----Original Message-----
From: andrewtub
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Zenith-List: Re: Sensitive Elevator
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "andrewtub" <_andrewtub@yahoo.com_
(mailto:andrewtub@yahoo.com) >
Seriously, I had no intention to fuel a fire. It's just a mere suggestion
to better a feature of the plane. In allot of the reviews I read it is
mentioned that the controls could be more balanced. I get the same from
three local zodiac pilots. Why not try to improve when the opportunity is
there?
In response to running out of stick... the elev will still have full
range
of motion to the up and down stops specified by zenith.
Read this topic online here:
_http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367106#367106_
(http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367106#367106)
href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
">_http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matr
onics.com_
(http://www.matronhref="http/forums.matronics.com">http:/forums.matronics
.com)
href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (htt
p://www.matronics.com/c)
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Sensitive Elevator |
Now there is the list we all know and love........
In a message dated 2/24/2012 4:09:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
andrewtub@yahoo.com writes:
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "andrewtub" <andrewtub@yahoo.com>
Yea, what kind of "DUMBASS" would make HOMEMADE modifications to a plane
in the first place with out consulting the manufacture. Kinda like some o
f
these "stupid" "DUMBASS"'s that would but in the middle of a conversation
with out knowing all of the facts of the matter.
[quote="BARRY CHECK 6"]You are correct RusselOne does have to learn to f
ly
the BASICS -=EF=BDTRAINERS=EF=BDbefore they advance. =EF=BDThat is
what the C152
was all about. =EF=BD
I have been flying R/C for over 40 years, trained 100's and the EASIEST
planes to fly are PATTERN SHIPS. =EF=BDThey go where YOU put them, you
don't
have to over correct for dihedral or try to guess where the plane is going
to
be when you do a roll.
NOW... Who in their right mind goes out and buys a kit without first
getting a ride in the plane they intend to build. =EF=BDAnd who in thei
r right mind
doesn't become VERY=EF=BDproficient in that type of plane before they b
ecome
a TEST PILOT in the plane they just built. OR do they intend to strap that
plane on some other dumb-ass with all those HOMEMADE modifications.
=EF=BDAfter all, the OTHER Test Pilot has 100 Hrs in Type but NOT in Ho
memade
Modification MAKE.
=EF=BD
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Russell Johnson wrote:
> From: FLYaDIVE
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com (zenith-list@matronics.com)
> Sent: Fri, February 24, 2012 1:35:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Sensitive Elevator
>
> If one thinks a 601 is 'sensitive' =EF=BDthey better not fly an RV or
a
Grumman or a Pits or a Night Twister or an Extra or any plane that
is=EF=BDRESPONSIVE. =EF=BDResponsive=EF=BDnot=EF=BDsensitive.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> =EF=BD
> =EF=BD
> =EF=BDResponsive not sensitive
>
> =EF=BD
> Reminds me of years ago when I was one of the instructors for our remote
control club.
> I had a pattern plane setup on a transmitter with=EF=BDdual rates, fl
ip the
switch on and=EF=BDthe airplane was quite docile, flip it off and it be
came
very responsive.
> =EF=BD After one of the students would become confident that they cou
ld fly
anything once the trainer plane was mastered, I would let them fly the
pattern ship with the dual rates on. They would usually get the hang of it
rather quickly. Then I would flip the switch off, and watch out!!!
> =EF=BD
> The last thing I would show them was to move the balance weights back
to about 38 percent of MAC, now you were talking about something that was
sensitive to fly.
> =EF=BD
> R. Johnson
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> > tp://forums.matronics.com
> > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> >
> >
>
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=367165#367165
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