Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:49 AM - Fuel gauges fuses (Chris Sinfield)
2. 01:44 AM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 11:23 AM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Phil Maxson)
4. 11:33 AM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Brad Rawls)
5. 01:27 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (FLYaDIVE)
6. 03:03 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Brad Rawls)
7. 03:20 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Craig Payne)
8. 03:37 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Jay Bannister)
9. 03:48 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Phil Maxson)
10. 03:49 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (FLYaDIVE)
11. 03:52 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (FLYaDIVE)
12. 07:33 PM - Re: Fuel gauges fuses (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel gauges fuses |
Hi all
I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use with
the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to not have
the right size and cause a short in the tank.
Chris
Zodiac xlb
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
Hi Chris,
I'm not sure I put a fuse in that whole circuit. I do have a fuse in
the Dynon unit that acts as the gauge.
The current expected in a fuel sender circuit should be a maximum of 12V
/ 100 Ohms or .120 amps. This suggests a 1 amp fuse or a little bit
larger if you want one. The display unit should not use an appreciable
amount of current.
It doesn't hurt to have a fuse that is a lot larger than your
calculation shows. The fuse is not a regulator. That means it doesn't
adjust the current. It just blows if the current is a lot higher than
it should be. A dead short will rise in current very quickly until
either the fuse or the wiring melts. So the functional difference
between a one amp fuse and a 10 amp fuse is trivial.
Have fun,
Paul
XL nearing end of phase I testing.
On 4/13/2012 12:46 AM, Chris Sinfield wrote:
> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Chris Sinfield<chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all
> I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use with
the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to not have
the right size and cause a short in the tank.
> Chris
> Zodiac xlb
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
The fuel gauges I have work on resistance. I didn't include any fuses in the lines
to the senders, if that's what you mean.
Phil
On Apr 13, 2012, at 3:56 AM, "Chris Sinfield" <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all
> I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use with
the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to not have
the right size and cause a short in the tank.
> Chris
> Zodiac xlb
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fuel gauges fuses |
Chris -
What gauges are you using? The ones that came with my kit work on resistance
only, no power. Just a ground and signal wire, no fuse required.
Thanks - Brad
Brad Rawls
Orange County Brokerage
17782 E. 17th St. #206
Tustin, CA 92780
714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sinfield
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:47 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
--> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
Hi all
I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use
with the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to not
have the right size and cause a short in the tank.
Chris
Zodiac xlb
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
Brad:
There HAS TO BE some power to the system for it to work. No power in = no
power out.
There should be some protective device in the system - A Fuse or a Circuit
Breaker (CB).
There maybe a very, very small current draw but that is ONLY when the
circuit is working correctly. Short out the circuit and the current
becomes infinite. Basic circuit deign tells one that circuit protection is
for Protection of the Wire; Not the device. Go recheck your circuit and if
you do not have circuit protection Put One In!
Now Chris. You can chose the fuse / CB size by knowing the current draw of
the item. Just install a handheld DMM in SERIES (READING CURRENT) with
the device and you will know how much it draws. If it is in the mili-amp
range the easy way to go would be a fuse. It it is one (1) amp or more use
a CB. What size wire are you using? I hope no one out there is using
Radio Shack wire! Remember Flight 800.
Electronics is a new and different field than pop-rivets and wrench
swinging. If you have any questions I will be very happy to help.
Electrical Engineer & Mechanical Engineer
Barry
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com> wrote:
>
> Chris -
>
> What gauges are you using? The ones that came with my kit work on
> resistance
> only, no power. Just a ground and signal wire, no fuse required.
>
> Thanks - Brad
>
> Brad Rawls
> Orange County Brokerage
> 17782 E. 17th St. #206
> Tustin, CA 92780
>
> 714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> Sinfield
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:47 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
>
> --> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all
> I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use
> with the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to
> not
> have the right size and cause a short in the tank.
> Chris
> Zodiac xlb
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Fuel gauges fuses |
The power is at the gauge, not the sender wire from the tank. The float in
the tank varies the resistance to ground which reads on gauge in the
cockpit. No power to the tank.
Thanks - Brad
Brad Rawls
Orange County Brokerage
17782 E. 17th St. #206
Tustin, CA 92780
714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
Brad:
There HAS TO BE some power to the system for it to work. No power in = no
power out.
There should be some protective device in the system - A Fuse or a Circuit
Breaker (CB).
There maybe a very, very small current draw but that is ONLY when the
circuit is working correctly. Short out the circuit and the current becomes
infinite. Basic circuit deign tells one that circuit protection is for
Protection of the Wire; Not the device. Go recheck your circuit and if you
do not have circuit protection Put One In!
Now Chris. You can chose the fuse / CB size by knowing the current draw of
the item. Just install a handheld DMM in SERIES (READING CURRENT) with the
device and you will know how much it draws. If it is in the mili-amp range
the easy way to go would be a fuse. It it is one (1) amp or more use a CB.
What size wire are you using? I hope no one out there is using Radio Shack
wire! Remember Flight 800.
Electronics is a new and different field than pop-rivets and wrench
swinging. If you have any questions I will be very happy to help.
Electrical Engineer & Mechanical Engineer
Barry
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com> wrote:
Chris -
What gauges are you using? The ones that came with my kit work on resistance
only, no power. Just a ground and signal wire, no fuse required.
Thanks - Brad
Brad Rawls
Orange County Brokerage
17782 E. 17th St. #206
Tustin, CA 92780
714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sinfield
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:47 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
--> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
Hi all
I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use
with the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to not
have the right size and cause a short in the tank.
Chris
Zodiac xlb
==========
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
==========
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le, List Admin.
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Fuel gauges fuses |
In normal operation the resistive sender moves the slider to ground (the
same as if you shorted the lead from the gauge to ground). Current is
limited to tens of milliamps by the resistance of the gauge. So go ahead and
add a fuse but it will never blow unless the gauge malfunctions (and in that
case the fuse on the power lead to the gauge would blow). The Volkswagen the
sender came out of didn't fuse this lead. If you want to be consistent you
should also add fuses to every other resistive sender that references to
ground: oil temp, oil pressure, water temp, etc.
-- Craig
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
Anyone who thinks you can measure a resistance without a current needs to
review basic electronics. The basic Ohm's law is: voltage equals current t
imes resistance. Therefore resistance equals voltage divided by current. I
f there is a voltage present, but current is zero, then resistance is zero
and can not be measured. It will always be zero until there is a current a
nd it can be measured. Any device to measure resistance must have a curren
t and a voltage must be present to have a current. Even a simple ohmmeter
uses a small current to measure the resistance of a resistor. If this were
not the case, your fuel gauge would read the fuel level with the power tur
ned off. That being said, the electrical part of the sender that Zenith su
pplies is totally outside the fuel tank. Even in the case of an electrica
l short, no electricity touches the fuel.
Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com>
Sent: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 5:06 pm
Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
The power is at the gauge, not the sender wire from the tank. The float in
the tank varies the resistance to ground which reads on gauge in the cockp
it. No power to the tank.
Thanks - Brad
Brad Rawls
Orange County Brokerage
17782 E. 17th St. #206
Tustin, CA 92780
714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-serv
er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
Brad:
There HAS TO BE some power to the system for it to work. No power in = n
o power out.
There should be some protective device in the system - A Fuse or a Circuit
Breaker (CB).
There maybe a very, very small current draw but that is ONLY when the circu
it is working correctly. Short out the circuit and the current becomes inf
inite. Basic circuit deign tells one that circuit protection is for Protec
tion of the Wire; Not the device. Go recheck your circuit and if you do no
t have circuit protection Put One In!
Now Chris. You can chose the fuse / CB size by knowing the current draw of
the item. Just install a handheld DMM in SERIES (READING CURRENT) with th
e device and you will know how much it draws. If it is in the mili-amp ran
ge the easy way to go would be a fuse. It it is one (1) amp or more use a
CB. What size wire are you using? I hope no one out there is using Radio
Shack wire! Remember Flight 800.
Electronics is a new and different field than pop-rivets and wrench swingin
g. If you have any questions I will be very happy to help.
Electrical Engineer & Mechanical Engineer
Barry
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com> wrote:
Chris -
What gauges are you using? The ones that came with my kit work on resistanc
e
only, no power. Just a ground and signal wire, no fuse required.
Thanks - Brad
Brad Rawls
Orange County Brokerage
17782 E. 17th St. #206
Tustin, CA 92780
714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Sinfield
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:47 AM
Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
--> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
Hi all
I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use
with the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to no
t
have the right size and cause a short in the tank.
Chris
Zodiac xlb
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://forums.matronics.com
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
With all due respect, anyone who thinks there is a need for a fuse on the Zenith
supplied resistance type fuel senders is over-thinking it. I suggest you move
on to other things to work on.
Phil Maxson
601XL-B/Corvair
Northwest New Jersey
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
Brad:
The power maybe applied at the gauge. BUT! There MUST be power to the
resistor of the sending unit.
Brad, your conception of how this works is wrong.
Pull out the schematic and where ever you see a wire there MUST be voltage
in it. Other wise why even use a wire! Use a 2x4 instead.
Brad, Guys, Anybody - Can you direct me to an online schematic of the
circuit? I'll break it down for all.
Barry
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com> wrote:
> The power is at the gauge, not the sender wire from the tank. The float in
> the tank varies the resistance to ground which reads on gauge in the
> cockpit. No power to the tank. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks - Brad****
>
> ** **
>
> Brad Rawls****
>
> Orange County Brokerage****
>
> 17782 E. 17th St. #206****
>
> Tustin, CA 92780****
>
> ** **
>
> 714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Friday, April 13, 2012 1:26 PM
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses****
>
> ** **
>
> Brad:****
>
> ** **
>
> There HAS TO BE some power to the system for it to work. No power in = no
> power out.****
>
> There should be some protective device in the system - A Fuse or a Circuit
> Breaker (CB).****
>
> There maybe a very, very small current draw but that is ONLY when the
> circuit is working correctly. Short out the circuit and the current
> becomes infinite. Basic circuit deign tells one that circuit protection is
> for Protection of the Wire; Not the device. Go recheck your circuit and if
> you do not have circuit protection Put One In!****
>
> ** **
>
> Now Chris. You can chose the fuse / CB size by knowing the current draw
> of the item. Just install a handheld DMM in SERIES (READING CURRENT) with
> the device and you will know how much it draws. If it is in the mili-amp
> range the easy way to go would be a fuse. It it is one (1) amp or more use
> a CB. What size wire are you using? I hope no one out there is using
> Radio Shack wire! Remember Flight 800.****
>
> ** **
>
> Electronics is a new and different field than pop-rivets and wrench
> swinging. If you have any questions I will be very happy to help.****
>
> Electrical Engineer & Mechanical Engineer****
>
> ** **
>
> Barry****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com> wrote:****
>
>
> Chris -
>
> What gauges are you using? The ones that came with my kit work on
> resistance
> only, no power. Just a ground and signal wire, no fuse required.
>
> Thanks - Brad
>
> Brad Rawls
> Orange County Brokerage
> 17782 E. 17th St. #206
> Tustin, CA 92780
>
> 714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> Sinfield
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:47 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
>
> --> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all
> I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use
> with the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to
> not
> have the right size and cause a short in the tank.
> Chris
> Zodiac xlb
>
>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 11
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
Thank You Jay!
You are 100% correct.
Your explanation of the variable resistor being outside of the tank
explains why Brad is confused.
Barry
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Jay Bannister <jaybannist@cs.com> wrote:
> Anyone who thinks you can measure a resistance without a current needs to
> review basic electronics. The basic Ohm's law is: voltage equals current
> times resistance. Therefore resistance equals voltage divided by current.
> If there is a voltage present, but current is zero, then resistance is zero
> and can not be measured. It will always be zero until there is a current
> and it can be measured. Any device to measure resistance must have a
> current and a voltage must be present to have a current. Even a simple
> ohmmeter uses a small current to measure the resistance of a resistor. If
> this were not the case, your fuel gauge would read the fuel level with the
> power turned off. That being said, the electrical part of the sender that
> Zenith supplies is totally outside the fuel tank. Even in the case of an
> electrical short, no electricity touches the fuel.
>
> Jay
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com>
> To: zenith-list <zenith-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Fri, Apr 13, 2012 5:06 pm
> Subject: RE: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
>
> The power is at the gauge, not the sender wire from the tank. The float
> in the tank varies the resistance to ground which reads on gauge in the
> cockpit. No power to the tank.
>
> Thanks - Brad
>
> Brad Rawls
> Orange County Brokerage
> 17782 E. 17th St. #206
> Tustin, CA 92780
>
> 714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
>
> *From:* owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com [
> mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com<owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com?>]
> *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* Friday, April 13, 2012 1:26 PM
> *To:* zenith-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
>
> Brad:
>
> There HAS TO BE some power to the system for it to work. No power in
> no power out.
> There should be some protective device in the system - A Fuse or a
> Circuit Breaker (CB).
> There maybe a very, very small current draw but that is ONLY when the
> circuit is working correctly. Short out the circuit and the current
> becomes infinite. Basic circuit deign tells one that circuit protection is
> for Protection of the Wire; Not the device. Go recheck your circuit and if
> you do not have circuit protection Put One In!
>
> Now Chris. You can chose the fuse / CB size by knowing the current draw
> of the item. Just install a handheld DMM in SERIES (READING CURRENT) with
> the device and you will know how much it draws. If it is in the mili-amp
> range the easy way to go would be a fuse. It it is one (1) amp or more use
> a CB. What size wire are you using? I hope no one out there is using
> Radio Shack wire! Remember Flight 800.
>
> Electronics is a new and different field than pop-rivets and wrench
> swinging. If you have any questions I will be very happy to help.
> Electrical Engineer & Mechanical Engineer
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Brad Rawls <Brad@ocbis.com> wrote:
>
> Chris -
>
> What gauges are you using? The ones that came with my kit work on
> resistance
> only, no power. Just a ground and signal wire, no fuse required.
>
> Thanks - Brad
>
> Brad Rawls
> Orange County Brokerage
> 17782 E. 17th St. #206
> Tustin, CA 92780
>
> 714-550-0159 voice / 714-550-0869 fax / Brad@ocbis.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> Sinfield
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 12:47 AM
> To: zenith-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith-List: Fuel gauges fuses
>
> --> <chris_sinfield@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi all
> I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use
> with the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to
> not
> have the right size and cause a short in the tank.
> Chris
> Zodiac xlb
>
>
> ==========
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> le, List Admin.
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> **
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> tor?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
> tp://forums.matronics.com
> bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel gauges fuses |
Fuses exist to protect the wires connecting your electrical circuits, not the devices
connected to those wires. The fuse should be sized according to the size
of the smallest wire in your circuit. You will probably have several gauges
supplied by the same circuit, that circuit will be protected by a single fuse.
The fuse should blow (or the breaker should trip) before the wires can overheat.
I am using one amp breakers in my gauge circuits.
Gauges generally are very high resistance circuits, they draw very little current.
A typical gauge is a coil made of very fine wire that generates a small magnetic
field to move a needle. When a gauge fails, it fails by fusing the fine
wire that drives the needle or by frying the electronics inside the gauge housing.
This will open the circuit.
The sender in a fuel gauge circuit is on the grounded side of the gauge, it usually
is a resister that varies from 0 to a few hundred Ohms. If it shorts out
it simply drives the needle to full scale. The sender can tolerate a whole lot
more current than the gauge can. Resistive fuel senders have been used for decades
in gasoline powered vehicles with no safety issues. Even if you could get
a short in the tank, a fuse would blow or the wire would melt down before it
would cause a problem, unless you are burning jet fuel. The fuel-air mixture
inside a gasoline tank is too rich to burn, not enough oxygen. On the other hand,
the fuel air mixture in a diesel tank is too lean to burn, not enough vapor.
Kerosine (jet fuel) is somewhere in between.
On Apr 13, 2012, at 3:46 AM, Chris Sinfield wrote:
>
> Hi all
> I have searched around but cannot find where it said what fuse size to use with
the standard zenith supplied senders and be gauges. I would hate to not have
the right size and cause a short in the tank.
> Chris
> Zodiac xlb
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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