Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:14 PM - a tip (Carlos Sa)
2. 05:32 PM - Re: a tip (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 07:25 PM - Re: a tip (afterfxllc@aol.com)
4. 07:26 PM - Re: a tip (afterfxllc@aol.com)
5. 10:14 PM - Re: a tip (FLYaDIVE)
Message 1
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I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my own
experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does not
quite work.
The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly shifted
from the original position when they were drilled.
Here's why, in case you don't know:
The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an
irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.
For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" (the
rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).
A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"
The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".
A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.
(Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find
slightly different measurements.)
In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than two
parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard to insert
the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to match as I
proceed with construction.
So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill
bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good
as a spent drill bit).
I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make it
easier to insert them.
(The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or drill
press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).
The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.
I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently.
Hopefully this can be useful to someone.
Blue skies
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
(CH650 firewall and canopy)
http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa
Message 2
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Carlos,
I accept your numbers, but I think you are worrying a little bit too
much about perfection.
Clecos do line up holes pretty well because the back side of the "head"
is indeed round. This grabs the entire hole on the opposite side of the
main clamp body. Well . . . it misses the area where the crack appears
between the fingers, but it does a good job of clamping the sheet metal
in place.
The more Clecos you use, the more aligned the pieces will be. I like
starting a rivet line with Clecos in every other hole and continue
working on this line by swapping the Cleco points and empty holes as the
parts are repeatedly drilled to higher and higher sizes. I usually have
not had any problem getting the holes aligned for final riveting after
deburring. In those cases where I have difficulty inserting the rivet,
I just run the final dril through the hole again. This may mean the
holes in all the riveted pieces are not precisely the same size but I
don't think this matters. The primary gripping is done by the two heads
of the final rivet.
It is important to do a good job on your construction, but keep in mind
you are building a relatively low performance airplane rather than a
space shuttle.
Good luck,
Paul
Camas, WA
Zodiac XL, in phase II
On 10/2/2013 5:13 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:
> I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my
> own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes
> does not quite work.
> The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly
> shifted from the original position when they were drilled.
>
> Here's why, in case you don't know:
> The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having
> an irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.
> For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155"
> (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).
> A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"
> The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".
> A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.
> (Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find
> slightly different measurements.)
>
> In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than
> two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard
> to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to
> match as I proceed with construction.
>
> So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent
> drill bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but
> not as good as a spent drill bit).
>
> I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make
> it easier to insert them.
> (The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or
> drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).
> The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.
>
> I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently.
>
> Hopefully this can be useful to someone.
>
> Blue skies
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> (CH650 firewall and canopy)
> http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa
Message 3
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Carlos you have way to much time on your hands... don't over think it it's
just an airplane not the space shuttle.
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Sa <carlossa52@gmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 8:50 pm
Subject: Zenith-List: a tip
I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my own e
xperience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does not qu
ite work.
The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly shifted f
rom the original position when they were drilled.
Here's why, in case you don't know:
The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an i
rregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.
For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155" (the
rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).
A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"
The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".
A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.
(Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find slight
ly different measurements.)
In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than two pa
rts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard to insert th
e rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to match as I proce
ed with construction.
So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill bi
ts here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good as
a spent drill bit).
I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make it eas
ier to insert them.
(The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or drill
press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).
The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.
I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently.
Hopefully this can be useful to someone.
Blue skies
Carlos
CH601-HD, plans
(CH650 firewall and canopy)
http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa
Message 4
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OMG I wrote the same thing and then read your message now that's funny righ
t there I don't care who you are........
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Sent: Wed, Oct 2, 2013 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith-List: a tip
Carlos,
I accept your numbers, but I think you are worrying a little bit too
much about perfection.
Clecos do line up holes pretty well because the back side of the "head"
is indeed round. This grabs the entire hole on the opposite side of the
main clamp body. Well . . . it misses the area where the crack appears
between the fingers, but it does a good job of clamping the sheet metal
in place.
The more Clecos you use, the more aligned the pieces will be. I like
starting a rivet line with Clecos in every other hole and continue
working on this line by swapping the Cleco points and empty holes as the
parts are repeatedly drilled to higher and higher sizes. I usually have
not had any problem getting the holes aligned for final riveting after
deburring. In those cases where I have difficulty inserting the rivet,
I just run the final dril through the hole again. This may mean the
holes in all the riveted pieces are not precisely the same size but I
don't think this matters. The primary gripping is done by the two heads
of the final rivet.
It is important to do a good job on your construction, but keep in mind
you are building a relatively low performance airplane rather than a
space shuttle.
Good luck,
Paul
Camas, WA
Zodiac XL, in phase II
On 10/2/2013 5:13 PM, Carlos Sa wrote:
> I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my
> own experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes
> does not quite work.
> The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly
> shifted from the original position when they were drilled.
>
> Here's why, in case you don't know:
> The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having
> an irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.
> For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155"
> (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).
> A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"
> The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".
> A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.
> (Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find
> slightly different measurements.)
>
> In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than
> two parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard
> to insert the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to
> match as I proceed with construction.
>
> So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent
> drill bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but
> not as good as a spent drill bit).
>
> I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make
> it easier to insert them.
> (The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or
> drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).
> The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.
>
> I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently.
>
> Hopefully this can be useful to someone.
>
> Blue skies
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> (CH650 firewall and canopy)
> http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa
Message 5
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Carlos:
Good write up. But there is a trick!
On long parts and especially parts that have a curve to them...
Start in the CENTER and alternately work your way to the ends.
This goes for BOTH inserting the CLECOE'S.
The removal as you insert the rivets and...
The insertion and setting of the rivets.
AND! You know those CLECOE CLAMPS?
There are great for clamping the ends of the mating parts.
Both when drilling and inserting CLECOE'S.
Barry
On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Carlos Sa <carlossa52@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have noticed - through other builders comments, but also through my own
> experience - that using clecoes to keep parts together sometimes does not
> quite work.
> The parts do remain attached, not doubt, but they can be slightly shifted
> from the original position when they were drilled.
>
> Here's why, in case you don't know:
> The rivet whole is slightly larger than the rivet, and a cleco, having an
> irregular shape, has plenty of room to move in a rivet hole.
> For instance an A5 Avex rivet has a diameter between 0.140" and 0.155"
> (the rivet has "fins", therefore the diameter varies).
> A solid rivet diameter is 0.155"
> The corresponding drill bit is 0.160".
> A black cleco is 0.149" at its widest point - but it is not round.
> (Note: these are measurements I took from Items I have. You may find
> slightly different measurements.)
>
> In longer parts (more than a foot or two) or assemblies of more than two
> parts, I find that if parts are not perfectly aligned, it's hard to insert
> the rivets. And, worse, parts will be warped or difficult to match as I
> proceed with construction.
>
> So, instead of simply trusting the clecoes, I started adding spent drill
> bits here and there (a solid rivet is better than a cleco, but not as good
> as a spent drill bit).
>
> I eventually started cutting drill bits and grinding one end to make it
> easier to insert them.
> (The grinding process consists of putting the drill bit in a drill or
> drill press and grinding it with a dremel tool.).
> The opposite end is covered with masking tape - see attached photo.
>
> I have a bunch of these, A4 and A5, and use them frequently.
>
> Hopefully this can be useful to someone.
>
> Blue skies
>
>
> Carlos
> CH601-HD, plans
> (CH650 firewall and canopy)
> http://www.zenith.aero/profile/CarlosSa
>
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