Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:15 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (ashontz)
2. 04:52 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (PatrickW)
3. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jay Maynard)
4. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Iberplanes IGL)
6. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jay Maynard)
7. 06:19 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (Gig Giacona)
8. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jay Maynard)
9. 06:48 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (ashontz)
10. 06:54 AM - RES: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Tadeu Faila)
11. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Iberplanes IGL)
12. 08:15 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (ashontz)
13. 08:17 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (steveadams)
14. 08:48 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (PatrickW)
15. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (David Downey)
16. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Gary Gower)
17. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Terry Phillips)
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Thanks, this is nearly identical to the design I came up with, except on the XL,
the mount would have to be on the next aileron rib in from the end because the
outside aileron rib is on an angle and is the end of the aileron/wing.
The thing is, from what I'm reading is that there seems to be a range of how far
forward of the hinge line the balance can go. Disregarding the fact that this
counterweight needs to fit inside the wing, this aileron could be balanced with
a 16 ounce weight another foot forward and still balance the aileron, but
would a lighter weight on a longer moment arm cause a problem (actually induce
flutter rather than suppress it), and conversely would too heavy of a weight
closer to the hinge cause a problem?
If someone could find recommended distance forward of the hinge that would be nice.
I suspect that info may need to be gleaned in a wind-tunnel.
moorecomp wrote:
> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on youtube
from Airfox.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM
>
> Best regards,
>
> Craig Moore A&P
> Mancelona, MI
> do not archive
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183077#183077
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
By Tony Bingelis
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
Tony Bingelis wrote:
> However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require
mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they
are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
moorecomp wrote:
> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
> youtube from Airfox.
Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
one...
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Jay,
I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would
have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft
design to ignore such a basic issue.
Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add
lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely
sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more
of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous
and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
>
>moorecomp wrote:
>> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
>> youtube from Airfox.
>
>Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
>seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
>should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
>at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
>there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
>one...
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
>Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Hi there ,
Have anyone on the list submitted this modification to ZAC for the proper
evaluation of the modification? I would not do any modification to my XL
until the factory aprroves such things. Thats my opinion anyway.
Take care,
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
2008/5/14 PatrickW <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>:
>
> HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
> By Tony Bingelis
>
> http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
>
>
> Tony Bingelis wrote:
> > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans
> require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be
> sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that
> tendency.
>
>
> - Pat
>
> --------
> Patrick
> 601XL/Corvair
> N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:32:05AM -0400, Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
> I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris
> Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much
> experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue.
Okkay, so I'm missing something even more fundamental. I thought balanced
control surfaces were necessary to avoid flutter in the first place. Is this
not the case?
> Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane,
> add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am
> absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing
> effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is
> potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.
Well, I'm not in a position to add anything to my Zodiac; the last I heard
(last Friday), it was a pile of parts on the factory floor. :-) Even after I
get it, I'm still not going to do anything of the sort. That's the downside
of buying an SLSA: it's *not* an Experimental, so I can't experiment on it.
If I were in such a position, though, I'd think long and hard before making
a modification of that sort. The effects, as you point out, propagate. I'm
also a fan of Antoine de Saint-Exupery's dictum that "perfection in design
is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing
left to be taken away".
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end
of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it
has the most possible effect on the structure.
First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no
mention of flutter with them.
Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something
as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.
And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun
in?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 06:18:44AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote:
> I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on
> the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way
> out where it has the most possible effect on the structure.
True. (Well, I dunno about "a whole lot of weight", but it would seem that
the balance weight would be on the same order of magnitude as the weight of
the aileron itself. How much does the aileron weigh?)
> First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has
> been no mention of flutter with them.
Do any of the other 601s have aileron trim? That, it would seem to me, would
substantially increase the weight out at the trailing edge of the aileron,
thus increasing the possibility of flutter.
I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. I'm asking, becuse I honestly don't
know.
> Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include
> something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the
> plans.
I think Chris Heintz's track record speaks for itself. Still, there's gotta
be some fire underneath all that smoke.
> And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that
> just spun in?
Identical to (as far as we can tell in the video). Different registration
number. That may or may not have been a factor in the accident.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
You have to design one, like the Air Fox guy did. His design looks like mine, I'm
just wondering about the combination or distance forward and weight. An infinite
number of configurations will balance the aileron, I'm concerned about the
moment arm length. Which would suppress fletter better, a heavy weight further
back, or a lighter weight further forward. In a dynamic situation with air
flowing over the aileron I'm sure the weight/moment arm combo is a factor in
resonant frequency.
jmaynard wrote:
> moorecomp wrote:
>
> > For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
> > youtube from Airfox.
> >
> >
>
> Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
> seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
> should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
> at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
> there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
> one...
> --
> Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
> Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183107#183107
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Ol=E1, Alberto, quais s=E3o as modifica=E7=F5es que est=E3o sendo
propostas. Quem est=E1
propondo tem qualifica=E7=E3o t=E9cnica para isso?
[]s
Tadeu Faila
De: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Iberplanes
IGL
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 14 de maio de 2008 09:47
Para: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Assunto: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video
Hi there ,
Have anyone on the list submitted this modification to ZAC for the
proper
evaluation of the modification? I would not do any modification to my XL
until the factory aprroves such things. Thats my opinion anyway.
Take care,
Alberto Martin
HYPERLINK "http://www.iberplanes.es"www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
2008/5/14 PatrickW <HYPERLINK
"mailto:pwhoyt@yahoo.com"pwhoyt@yahoo.com>:
"mailto:pwhoyt@yahoo.com"pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
By Tony Bingelis
HYPERLINK "http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html"
\nhttp://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
Tony Bingelis wrote:
> However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans
require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never
be
sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for
that
tendency.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082"
\nhttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"http://www.matronics.c
om/
Navigator?Zenith601-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
Checked by AVG.
13/5/2008
07:31
Checked by AVG.
13/5/2008
07:31
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Gig,
I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far.
Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the
tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment.
Take care,
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
2008/5/14 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>:
>
> I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the
> end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out
> where it has the most possible effect on the structure.
>
> First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has
> been no mention of flutter with them.
>
> Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include
> something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.
>
> And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just
> spun in?
>
> --------
> W.R. "Gig" Giacona
> 601XL Under Construction
> See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Actually, who know whether it needs it or not, but all certified planes are required
to have them apparently. Apparently Chris feels it's not needed and he's
probably right. Although with the hinged ailerons it may be a good idea.
Gig, a whole lot of weight? There's tons of planes out there flying around with
these weights on them.
Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote:
> Jay,
>
> I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would
have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft
design to ignore such a basic issue.
>
> Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add
lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely
sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot
more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous
and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.
>
> Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
>
>
> Jay Maynard wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > moorecomp wrote:
> > > For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
> > > youtube from Airfox.
> >
> > Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
> > seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
> > should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
> > at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
> > there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
> > one...
> > --
> > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
> > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
> > http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
> > Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183126#183126
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
There are many variables here. Usually you balance to a specified attitude or angle
compared to the cord line; not all balancing is 100% mass balanced. For a
particular design it may be 20%, 50%, 70%, etc. which under dynamic conditions
provides the optimal flutter resistance or at least flutter resistance within
the aircrafts design performance envelope. Most small aircraft do not undergo
wind tunnel testing, it's all theoretical design and then flight test within
the performance envelope. So if you don't know the theory, I guess leaves strapping
on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183127#183127
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
steveadams wrote:
> I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test.
When it comes right down to it, that is exactly what we who are involved in experimental
aviation are doing.
At least those of us with parachutes or BRS's....
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183133#183133
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
do not archive
weight at the tip is adding load to the root only on the ground. In flight it is
sort of like span loading.
Iberplanes IGL <iberplanes@gmail.com> wrote: Gig,
I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not
authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes
a lot of stress to the root attachment.
Take care,
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
2008/5/14 Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>:
I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end
of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it
has the most possible effect on the structure.
First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no
mention of flutter with them.
Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something
as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans.
And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun
in?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099
David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Hello Jay,
I also remember reading from Graham Lee + The designer of the Nieuport 11
Replica this:
"To an airplane only add Lightness and Simplicity"
I have one sign of this (betwen several) in my shop in big letters.
Another one I like very much is (translated in my english):
"The time used in doing the things right is never a lost of time".
Saludos
Gary Gower.
Do not archive.
Jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
Jay,
I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would
have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft
design to ignore such a basic issue.
Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add
lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely
sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more
of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous
and I wouldn't even begin to consider it.
Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser"
Jay Maynard wrote:
>
>moorecomp wrote:
>> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on
>> youtube from Airfox.
>
>Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've
>seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface
>should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is
>at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is
>there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing
>one...
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
>Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Aileron Balance Video |
Thanks for the reference, Pat. If you follow that link up a couple of
levels, there are links to quite a few interesting articles. see
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/
Many of the links on that page ending with .html take you to lists of some
of the various articles.
Meanwhile, Bingelis' book, "Sportplane Construction Techniques" (I got mine
from the EAA) has the balance article plus lots of other Bingelis articles,
including "push-pull tube connections," "control cables," etc. I put the
Bingelis 4 book collection on my Christmas list. It has proven to be a good
collection of building hints.
Terry
do not archive
At 04:52 AM 5/14/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES
>By Tony Bingelis
>
>http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
>
>
>Tony Bingelis wrote:
> > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans
> require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be
> sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for
> that tendency.
>
>
>- Pat
>
>--------
>Patrick
>601XL/Corvair
>N63PZ (reserved)
Terry Phillips
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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