---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/14/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:15 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (ashontz) 2. 04:52 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (PatrickW) 3. 04:53 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jay Maynard) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jaybannist@cs.com) 5. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Iberplanes IGL) 6. 05:52 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jay Maynard) 7. 06:19 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (Gig Giacona) 8. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Jay Maynard) 9. 06:48 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (ashontz) 10. 06:54 AM - RES: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Tadeu Faila) 11. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Iberplanes IGL) 12. 08:15 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (ashontz) 13. 08:17 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (steveadams) 14. 08:48 AM - Re: Aileron Balance Video (PatrickW) 15. 09:49 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (David Downey) 16. 10:31 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Gary Gower) 17. 10:45 AM - Re: Re: Aileron Balance Video (Terry Phillips) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "ashontz" Thanks, this is nearly identical to the design I came up with, except on the XL, the mount would have to be on the next aileron rib in from the end because the outside aileron rib is on an angle and is the end of the aileron/wing. The thing is, from what I'm reading is that there seems to be a range of how far forward of the hinge line the balance can go. Disregarding the fact that this counterweight needs to fit inside the wing, this aileron could be balanced with a 16 ounce weight another foot forward and still balance the aileron, but would a lighter weight on a longer moment arm cause a problem (actually induce flutter rather than suppress it), and conversely would too heavy of a weight closer to the hinge cause a problem? If someone could find recommended distance forward of the hinge that would be nice. I suspect that info may need to be gleaned in a wind-tunnel. moorecomp wrote: > For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on youtube from Airfox. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_D4bt0guvM > > Best regards, > > Craig Moore A&P > Mancelona, MI > do not archive -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183077#183077 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:51 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "PatrickW" HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES By Tony Bingelis http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html Tony Bingelis wrote: > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency. - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:47 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video moorecomp wrote: > For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on > youtube from Airfox. Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing one... -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:13 AM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Jay, I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue. Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it. Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" Jay Maynard wrote: > >moorecomp wrote: >> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on >> youtube from Airfox. > >Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've >seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface >should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is >at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is >there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing >one... >-- >Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com >http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) >Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:23 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Hi there , Have anyone on the list submitted this modification to ZAC for the proper evaluation of the modification? I would not do any modification to my XL until the factory aprroves such things. Thats my opinion anyway. Take care, Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain 2008/5/14 PatrickW : > > HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES > By Tony Bingelis > > http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html > > > Tony Bingelis wrote: > > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans > require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be > sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that > tendency. > > > - Pat > > -------- > Patrick > 601XL/Corvair > N63PZ (reserved) > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:00 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 08:32:05AM -0400, Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris > Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much > experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue. Okkay, so I'm missing something even more fundamental. I thought balanced control surfaces were necessary to avoid flutter in the first place. Is this not the case? > Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, > add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am > absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing > effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is > potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it. Well, I'm not in a position to add anything to my Zodiac; the last I heard (last Friday), it was a pile of parts on the factory floor. :-) Even after I get it, I'm still not going to do anything of the sort. That's the downside of buying an SLSA: it's *not* an Experimental, so I can't experiment on it. If I were in such a position, though, I'd think long and hard before making a modification of that sort. The effects, as you point out, propagate. I'm also a fan of Antoine de Saint-Exupery's dictum that "perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to be taken away". -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "Gig Giacona" I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure. First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them. Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans. And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:14 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 06:18:44AM -0700, Gig Giacona wrote: > I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on > the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way > out where it has the most possible effect on the structure. True. (Well, I dunno about "a whole lot of weight", but it would seem that the balance weight would be on the same order of magnitude as the weight of the aileron itself. How much does the aileron weigh?) > First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has > been no mention of flutter with them. Do any of the other 601s have aileron trim? That, it would seem to me, would substantially increase the weight out at the trailing edge of the aileron, thus increasing the possibility of flutter. I'm not suggesting anyone do anything. I'm asking, becuse I honestly don't know. > Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include > something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the > plans. I think Chris Heintz's track record speaks for itself. Still, there's gotta be some fire underneath all that smoke. > And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that > just spun in? Identical to (as far as we can tell in the video). Different registration number. That may or may not have been a factor in the accident. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "ashontz" You have to design one, like the Air Fox guy did. His design looks like mine, I'm just wondering about the combination or distance forward and weight. An infinite number of configurations will balance the aileron, I'm concerned about the moment arm length. Which would suppress fletter better, a heavy weight further back, or a lighter weight further forward. In a dynamic situation with air flowing over the aileron I'm sure the weight/moment arm combo is a factor in resonant frequency. jmaynard wrote: > moorecomp wrote: > > > For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on > > youtube from Airfox. > > > > > > Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've > seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface > should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is > at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is > there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing > one... > -- > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) > Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183107#183107 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:15 AM PST US From: "Tadeu Faila" Subject: RES: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Ol=E1, Alberto, quais s=E3o as modifica=E7=F5es que est=E3o sendo propostas. Quem est=E1 propondo tem qualifica=E7=E3o t=E9cnica para isso? []s Tadeu Faila De: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] Em nome de Iberplanes IGL Enviada em: quarta-feira, 14 de maio de 2008 09:47 Para: zenith601-list@matronics.com Assunto: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Hi there , Have anyone on the list submitted this modification to ZAC for the proper evaluation of the modification? I would not do any modification to my XL until the factory aprroves such things. Thats my opinion anyway. Take care, Alberto Martin HYPERLINK "http://www.iberplanes.es"www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain 2008/5/14 PatrickW : "mailto:pwhoyt@yahoo.com"pwhoyt@yahoo.com> HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES By Tony Bingelis HYPERLINK "http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html" \nhttp://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html Tony Bingelis wrote: > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for that tendency. - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: HYPERLINK "http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082" \nhttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183082#183082 "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Zenith601-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com "http://www.matronics.com/contribution"http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion Checked by AVG. 13/5/2008 07:31 Checked by AVG. 13/5/2008 07:31 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:19 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Gig, I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment. Take care, Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain 2008/5/14 Gig Giacona : > > I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the > end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out > where it has the most possible effect on the structure. > > First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has > been no mention of flutter with them. > > Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include > something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans. > > And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just > spun in? > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:59 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "ashontz" Actually, who know whether it needs it or not, but all certified planes are required to have them apparently. Apparently Chris feels it's not needed and he's probably right. Although with the hinged ailerons it may be a good idea. Gig, a whole lot of weight? There's tons of planes out there flying around with these weights on them. Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > Jay, > > I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue. > > Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it. > > Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" > > > Jay Maynard wrote: > > > > > > > > moorecomp wrote: > > > For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on > > > youtube from Airfox. > > > > Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've > > seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface > > should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is > > at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is > > there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing > > one... > > -- > > Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com > > http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net > > http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) > > Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183126#183126 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "steveadams" There are many variables here. Usually you balance to a specified attitude or angle compared to the cord line; not all balancing is 100% mass balanced. For a particular design it may be 20%, 50%, 70%, etc. which under dynamic conditions provides the optimal flutter resistance or at least flutter resistance within the aircrafts design performance envelope. Most small aircraft do not undergo wind tunnel testing, it's all theoretical design and then flight test within the performance envelope. So if you don't know the theory, I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183127#183127 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video From: "PatrickW" steveadams wrote: > I guess leaves strapping on a chute and putting your ideas to the ultimate test. When it comes right down to it, that is exactly what we who are involved in experimental aviation are doing. At least those of us with parachutes or BRS's.... - Pat -------- Patrick 601XL/Corvair N63PZ (reserved) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183133#183133 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:03 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video do not archive weight at the tip is adding load to the root only on the ground. In flight it is sort of like span loading. Iberplanes IGL wrote: Gig, I absolutely agree on your post. I think this is going too far. Modifications not authorized by the company? Crazy as hell. Weight on the tip of the wing makes a lot of stress to the root attachment. Take care, Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain 2008/5/14 Gig Giacona : I totally and fully reject the idea that that dumbbell is needed out on the end of the wing. That looks like a whole hell of a lot of weight way out where it has the most possible effect on the structure. First, none of the previous 601 designs had a need for it and there has been no mention of flutter with them. Second, if I thought for a second that CH would have forgotten to include something as large as that then I would scrape my plane and burn the plans. And finally, isn't the plane in the video one or identical to one that just spun in? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=183099#183099 David L. Downey Harleysville (SE) PA, USA ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:34 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Hello Jay, I also remember reading from Graham Lee + The designer of the Nieuport 11 Replica this: "To an airplane only add Lightness and Simplicity" I have one sign of this (betwen several) in my shop in big letters. Another one I like very much is (translated in my english): "The time used in doing the things right is never a lost of time". Saludos Gary Gower. Do not archive. Jaybannist@cs.com wrote: Jay, I feel pretty sure that if the XL wing needed aileron balance, Chris Heintz would have included it in the design. He just has too much experience in aircraft design to ignore such a basic issue. Tony Benglis also said that if you want to add something to your airplane, add lightness. Adding balance weights surely doesn't add lightness. I am absolutely sure that adding that much weight that far out on the wing effects a lot more of the overall structure than just the ailerons. It is potentially dangerous and I wouldn't even begin to consider it. Jay in Dallas CH 601XL N2630J "Lil Bruiser" Jay Maynard wrote: > >moorecomp wrote: >> For all interested in aileron balance, I see this was just posted on >> youtube from Airfox. > >Looking at that raises a basic question, for me. All of the discussions I've >seen on flutter and control surface balance say that the control surface >should balance on the hinge when removed from the aircraft. If the hinge is >at the frontmost point on the part, though, how is this accomplished? Is >there a weight on the XL aileron sticking forward? I don't recall seeing >one... >-- >Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com >http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!) >Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390 > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:43 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron Balance Video Thanks for the reference, Pat. If you follow that link up a couple of levels, there are links to quite a few interesting articles. see http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/ Many of the links on that page ending with .html take you to lists of some of the various articles. Meanwhile, Bingelis' book, "Sportplane Construction Techniques" (I got mine from the EAA) has the balance article plus lots of other Bingelis articles, including "push-pull tube connections," "control cables," etc. I put the Bingelis 4 book collection on my Christmas list. It has proven to be a good collection of building hints. Terry do not archive At 04:52 AM 5/14/2008 -0700, you wrote: >HOW TO MASS BALANCE CONTROL SURFACES >By Tony Bingelis > >http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html > > >Tony Bingelis wrote: > > However, and of this you may be sure, regardless of whether your plans > require mass balancing of one or more control surfaces, you will never be > sure they are flutter-free until they have been tested in flight - for > that tendency. > > >- Pat > >-------- >Patrick >601XL/Corvair >N63PZ (reserved) Terry Phillips ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.