Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:17 AM - Re: Securing the Seats (David Johnson)
2. 04:13 AM - Securing the Seats (Frank Derfler)
3. 06:25 AM - 601 Flying Yesterday (cookwithgas)
4. 07:38 AM - Re: Securing the Seats (T. Graziano)
5. 11:59 AM - Re: Use of 7075-T-6 for wing attach fittings? (Jim Machin)
6. 12:00 PM - Re: Securing the Seats (PatrickW)
7. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: Securing the Seats (Bryan Martin)
8. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Securing the Seats (Cndmovn)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
I was taught that to recover from a stall you push forward - either his
seats are in front of the stick, or his elevators work the opposite way
round form normal!!!
Dave Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 1:43 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Securing the Seats
>
> While flying with a guy in an AMD 601XL, he mentioned that the seats can
> slide forward in a stall, resulting in some exciting moments as the seats
> interfere with the sticks (Dual Sticks) resulting in the inability to pull
> up until you get the seat slid back out of the way...
>
> Any ideas on how to secure the seats from sliding forward? I'd need to
> retain access underneath the seats.
>
> Velcro? Straps? What works for you...?
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Pat
>
> --------
> Patrick
> 601XL/Corvair
> N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184951#184951
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Securing the Seats |
Seats (meaning seat cushions) slide forward at a high angle of attack? Huh?
I've got 200 hours in my AMD-made 601XL ... and a heck of a lot of that time
was spent at high angle of attack while trying to calibrate the wacky AoA
indicator in the Dynon (since fixed by a *software* upgrade). Been through
the high pitch high bank maneuvers for the commercial pilot test. NEVER
felt the seat cushion move.
I can't say that it is a non-issue for everyone, but it sure is not an issue
for me. .
Seems like a snug seat belt would be the best bet!
Frank Derfler
--
Discussing All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly)
immoral at http://mostlyflying.blogspot.com
Pilots: See me at www.flyinflorida.com
Guys: See www.greatguybooks.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | 601 Flying Yesterday |
Yesterday I was able to fly my 601 for the first time in 2 weeks. I am so proud
of that airplane. I just went up for an hour to test out the new exhaust manifolds
I installed. It flies like a dream.
The previous flight was a potential disaster. I noticed the EGT went to Zero on
my left exhaust bank. I landed and found this:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Exhaust_Break.JPG
I spent two weeks fabricating two new exhaust headers out of stainless and now
have a much better system:
http://www.cooknwithgas.com/Leftside.JPG
Flying the 601 is a real treat. If you are not flying yet, keep building. It
is worth it.
Scott Laughlin
Omaha, Nebraska
601XL/Corvair
Finished & Flying
www.cooknwithgas.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185004#185004
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
"Seems like a snug seat belt would be the best bet! "
Agree.
Have dual sticks in my XL. Never had seats move (although mine are made
from memory and "work out" foam filled auto seat covers, not two piece
"store bought". With the bucket type of seating arrangement, I can not
visualize how the seat cushion could move to interfere with the stick,
unless one went to zero/neg G while decelerating with a really loose
seat belt.
Have done over a hundred stalls will various
power/flap/turning/climbing/descending rates during airwork exercises.
Stalls, at least in my XL, are a non-event and I can keep it in a stall
shudder without departing while keeping wings level with rudder,
although, I have gone stop-to-stop with ailerons with the airplane is a
stall shudder, and the airplane starts to roll in the direction of the
input and has not departed opposite to input, as in a Cessna and other
airplanes. Relaxing back pressure to lower the nose to increase air
speed brings it out of the stall.
Tony Graziano
XL/Jab; N493TG; 380 hrs
----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Derfler
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:13 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Securing the Seats
Seats (meaning seat cushions) slide forward at a high angle of attack?
Huh?
I've got 200 hours in my AMD-made 601XL ... and a heck of a lot of
that time was spent at high angle of attack while trying to calibrate
the wacky AoA indicator in the Dynon (since fixed by a software
upgrade). Been through the high pitch high bank maneuvers for the
commercial pilot test. NEVER felt the seat cushion move.
I can't say that it is a non-issue for everyone, but it sure is not an
issue for me. .
Seems like a snug seat belt would be the best bet!
Frank Derfler
--
Discussing All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or
(blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.blogspot.com
Pilots: See me at www.flyinflorida.com
Guys: See www.greatguybooks.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Use of 7075-T-6 for wing attach fittings? |
Hi Walt,
As none of us here have all the facts, my opinions on the wing failures
are just that - opinions. That being said, my thoughts are that
statically, the wing is strong enough to meet the design requirements.
It is very straight forward to calculate the wing lift capability and
entirely acceptable to then test the wing to meet the requirements just
as Zenith has done multiple times. There seems to have been more than
one failure mode (with failures both in the positive and negative
direction) so there is probably not just one explanation. Flutter is
always a possibility especially with different rigging techniques
resulting in different cable tension being a variable. I do know for a
fact that a more balanced system would up the flutter speed (my aircraft
does not have the trim system in the aileron) and I am considering
additional balancing. Since there must have been a failure do to over
control in the negative direction, putting in the control stop as
recommended by Zenith seems prudent. The elevator is sensitive and it
has occurred to me that with the reclined seating position, hitting a
gust in the negative direction might cause the pilot to rotate about the
lap belt and thus moving the shoulder forward (especially if the
shoulder harness is loose) which could result in an unintended down
elevator control input if the body tensed involuntarily thus
exacerbating the negative G loading and possibly overstressing the
wing.
My plan going forward is to build the wing as designed, make sure all
the control cables have the right tension, install the control limit on
the elevator, fly with a tight shoulder harness and always fly the
aircraft within the design envelope.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Carey
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008 5:06 AM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Use of 7075-T-6 for wing attach fittings?
Thanks for the info Jim. Maybe I'll just double up on the backing plate
for the rear center spar and the wing attachment plates using .063 6061
T-6 aluminum. Retired from the AF in 1979 as CMSgt and 1998 as GM-14. In
the AF, worked five years in electronics, five years as B-52 gunner, two
years in field maintenance, and 10 years in OSI. As civilian, worked
another 18 years on OSI. Any thoughts on the suspected wing failures?
Walt.
Jim Machin <Jim.Machin@uav.com> wrote:
Walt,
7075 material, in general, is very susceptible to stress corrosion
cracking and is prohibited from being used on any military programs. On
our aircraft (I design UAV aircraft, Predator series) for the Air Force,
we have had to substitute 7050 for all the parts that were originally
7075 as we had seen some premature corrosion problems on some very well
corrosion-protected parts (anodized and painted). The corrosion process
is accelerated when the material is continually stressed as in landing
gear while the aircraft is sitting on the ground (which is where we saw
problems). While being much stronger than 2024 or 6061, 7075 really is
not a good choice of material. If the higher material properties are
required, 7050 can be used but it is very expensive.
Jim
Quickbuild 601XL, 0-200
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Walter
Carey
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 2:33 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Use of 7075-T-6 for wing attach fittings?
Hi,
New to the site. Building in basement in Beavercreek, Ohio, just
outside of Dayton. Both wings, control surfaces and flaps complete. Yes,
I can get them out of the basement. Fuselage 50 % complete, held
together by Clecoes. Once complete, will disassemble and move to garage
where fuselage will be aligned again and riveted together. Not new to
aviation or aircraft maintenance, especially sheet metal work.
Question: Has anyone used, or thought about using 7075 T-6 Alclad .063
aluminum as a backing plate on the rear center spar running thru the
fuselage, and as attachment plates between the rear center spar and the
wing rear spar? 7075 T-6 is a high strength aluminum designed for use in
high stress areas. I would like to do this as I am in agreement with
several readers who have suggested that recent wing failures COULD have
been the result of the failure of the rear spar attach plates. My
thought is that until the NTSB comes up with a reason and a fix, why not
add extra strength in that area. The added weight is minimal.
Any comments?
Walt
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
david_a_g_johnson(at)btin wrote:
> I was taught that to recover from a stall you push forward - either his seats
are in front of the stick, or his elevators work the opposite way round form
normal!!!
>
> Dave Johnson
> ---
Glad that you were taught that.....
Back to relevancy.
The scenario was described like this:
1) Stall.
2) Experience reduced G.
3) Butt no longer holding seat cushion down.
4) Seat cushion pushed forward.
5) Stick is forward to recover from stall.
6) Seat cushion now interferes with stick.
Perhaps this was an isolated case. As told to me by the pilot, it was an instructor
and a student who were flying. It is entirely possible that the student
didn't have his seat belt tight enough.
I was curious if others had encountered this situation, and if so, what did they
do to prevent its recurrence. Ergo, what could *I* do to prevent it.
Thanks,
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185089#185089
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
You could use velcro to secure the seat bottom or just apply something
like non-skid tape to the seat pan to provide more friction to keep
the seat from sliding.
On May 27, 2008, at 2:59 PM, PatrickW wrote:
> Glad that you were taught that.....
>
> Back to relevancy.
>
> The scenario was described like this:
>
> 1) Stall.
> 2) Experience reduced G.
> 3) Butt no longer holding seat cushion down.
> 4) Seat cushion pushed forward.
> 5) Stick is forward to recover from stall.
> 6) Seat cushion now interferes with stick.
>
> Perhaps this was an isolated case. As told to me by the pilot, it
> was an instructor and a student who were flying. It is entirely
> possible that the student didn't have his seat belt tight enough.
>
> I was curious if others had encountered this situation, and if so,
> what did they do to prevent its recurrence. Ergo, what could *I* do
> to prevent it.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
Exactly...velcro them in place. I did that on my Kitfox as well and it
worked just fine. Easy enough to remove the seats if they need cleaning but
secure enough to top any shifting
Paul
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
wrote:
> bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
>
> You could use velcro to secure the seat bottom or just apply something like
> non-skid tape to the seat pan to provide more friction to keep the seat from
> sliding.
>
> On May 27, 2008, at 2:59 PM, PatrickW wrote:
>
> Glad that you were taught that.....
>>
>> Back to relevancy.
>>
>> The scenario was described like this:
>>
>> 1) Stall.
>> 2) Experience reduced G.
>> 3) Butt no longer holding seat cushion down.
>> 4) Seat cushion pushed forward.
>> 5) Stick is forward to recover from stall.
>> 6) Seat cushion now interferes with stick.
>>
>> Perhaps this was an isolated case. As told to me by the pilot, it was an
>> instructor and a student who were flying. It is entirely possible that the
>> student didn't have his seat belt tight enough.
>>
>> I was curious if others had encountered this situation, and if so, what
>> did they do to prevent its recurrence. Ergo, what could *I* do to prevent
>> it.
>>
>>
>
> --
> Bryan Martin
> N61BM, CH 601 XL,
> RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
> do not archive.
>
>
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