Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:53 AM - Securing the Seats (Frank Derfler)
2. 05:30 AM - Re: 601 Flying Yesterday (cookwithgas)
3. 05:35 AM - Re: Securing the Seats (BobTezyk)
4. 05:36 AM - Re: Securing the Seats (BobTezyk)
5. 06:32 AM - Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (Gig Giacona)
6. 07:05 AM - Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (Gig Giacona)
7. 08:09 AM - Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (DaveG601XL)
8. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (Craig Payne)
9. 11:37 AM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Aerolitellc@aol.com)
10. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Iberplanes IGL)
11. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Jay Maynard)
12. 01:24 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (ashontz)
13. 01:31 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (ashontz)
14. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gary Gower)
15. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Craig Payne)
16. 04:57 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gig Giacona)
17. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Craig Payne)
18. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Jaybannist@cs.com)
19. 05:51 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gary Gower)
20. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gary Gower)
21. 05:58 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (ashontz)
22. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Terry Turnquist)
23. 06:49 PM - Re: 601 Flying Yesterday (Ron Lendon)
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| Subject: | Securing the Seats |
Ummm... if the seat cushions are attached to the airplane with a double bond
adhesive, how do you wash them?
--Frank Derfler
--
Discussing All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly)
immoral at http://mostlyflying.blogspot.com
Pilots: See me at www.flyinflorida.com
Guys: See www.greatguybooks.com
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Flying Yesterday |
Ron:
I re-used the Carbon Steel stubs I got from William a while back for my first exhaust
system. I just grinded them off and reused them.
I ordered the stainless from an on-line exhaust site called Columbia River Mandrel
Bending. The bends are described as: 304 Stainless, 3" Legs, 2.5" Radius,
.065 Wall. the straight pipe I used was 16 gauge (also .065" w.t.) and also
304 stainless. I ended up having to bend the straight pipe with my HF bender
and it wasn't nearly as pretty as the mandrel bent pipe. If I ever have to do
this again I'll order some 45 mandrel bends so I don't have to do any hack bending
with the HF bender.
It was very nice to weld using stainless rod with my TIG. Overall I am very happy
with the new system. It was one of the things I didn't like that much about
the engine installation. The other thing was my intake which I recently powder-coated
black and it looks a lot cleaner that way. I also checked it real
good for leaks before applying the powder.
The Corvair is performing very well and I like the way it is all set up right now.
Scott Laughlin
601XL/Corvair
www.cooknwithgas.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185354#185354
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
No Frank,
You double bond the Velcro loop side to the cushion and the hook side to the structure.
2 one inch strips going the length of the cushion should do it.
--------
do not archive
Regards,
Bob Tezyk
N78QT - 601XL QB/ Jab3300
Working on elevator
http://neo.datamatrix.com/eaglesnestestates/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=23
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185355#185355
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| Subject: | Re: Securing the Seats |
Make that 2 one inch WIDE strips going the length of the cushion.
--------
do not archive
Regards,
Bob Tezyk
N78QT - 601XL QB/ Jab3300
Working on elevator
http://neo.datamatrix.com/eaglesnestestates/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=23
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185356#185356
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| Subject: | Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) |
You can feel free to put your plane up on auto ramps and then tilt it down further
in the back. I'm not going to do it with mine.
ashontz wrote:
>
> Set the wheels on car ramps, then you can tilt it back further (ie. more ground
clearance). Then disconnect the fuel line at the engine and try the pumps.
At least you'll know it's getting fuel right up to the carb. Hopefully the carb
can handle the angle.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185364#185364
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| Subject: | Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) |
Actually that is exactly what AC90-89A suggests.
They suggest a ramp not Auto ramps for nose wheel and digging a hole to drop a
tail wheel in. But let's keep one thing in mind about AC90-89A. It was written
to cover every type of EX-AB aircraft out there including clean sheet, never
flown before aircraft. The fact that our planes are coming from kits and/or well
tested planes reduces some of the issues that face us.
I've gone through the AC and have thought about my test plan. On this issue I think
the best thing is to test it at the max angle that can be achieved by lowering
the tail and limit the initial climb to that angle.
During first flight I am going to climb to 5K AGL and test for slow flight. I will
be doing this over the airport. During that slow flight I will be extending
the envelope for aircraft angle so I will have further data there.
And this is to everyone. If you haven't read through AC90-89A I suggest you do.
There seems to be several folks that the first flight was just once around the
field and that isn't what the AC suggests.
Al Hays wrote:
> Would it be necessary to actually run the engine in performing this
> ground test for fuel flow?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185366#185366
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) |
Good information, thanks.
I will be doing a fuel flow test via the electronic fuel pump, through the mechanical
pump (motor not running) for a flow and min fuel level test per the advisory
circular. I do not plan on running it this way. Due to high CHT's, I cannot
run at high power very long so I don't think I will get to the true minimum
fuel level where the engines stops running before I overtemp it.
Thanks,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, working on final assembly.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185377#185377
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| Subject: | Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) |
Part of testing the fuel system is demonstrating that the system can deliver
much more fuel than the engine needs. Which you can't do by simple running
the engine. That is why a ground run at maximum angle into a calibrated
container is hard to avoid. You will be using gravity in a high-wing and the
boost pump in a low wing. True you won't be testing the capacity of the
engine's fuel pump but you will be testing the flow rate of all the plumbing
end-to-end. Obviously you will also the system as a hole during ground runs
and flight testing.
-- Craig
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
_http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf_
(http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf)
Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the
pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot
heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He
then started to bank and roll and he deployed the BRS chute.
Jeff
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Sorry, already done on the other list.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG
Alberto Martin
Iberplanes IGL
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a
Translation:
The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be
maneuvering
in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was
destroyed.
The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The
pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the
speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a
banging
under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until
it
touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a
third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM).
When
the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended
slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low
vertical
speed.
Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed
and
that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us
English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing)
failed
due to a static upwards force.
The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being
aerobatics,
reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not
possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because
the
accelerometer was reset after the event.
The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the
builder is
sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's
documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the
flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft
was
not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne
of
290 km/h (157 knots).
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:36:43PM -0400, Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote:
> _http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf_
> (http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf)
>
> Hopefully someone else can translate this better
Here's a message I posted to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group list:
I hadn't heard of this one, but while enlightening, it's probably not going
to be definitive.
I used to be fairly fluent in French. I'm not any more, mainly because my
vocabulary's gone poof - and I never had the aviation terms to begin with.
Nevertheless, I was able to make a rough translation:
-----
The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be maneuvering
in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was destroyed.
The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The
pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the
speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a banging
under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until it
touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a
third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM). When
the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended
slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low vertical
speed.
Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed and
that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us
English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing) failed
due to a static upwards force.
The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics,
reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not
possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because the
accelerometer was reset after the event.
The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is
sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's
documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the
flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft was
not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne of
290 km/h (157 knots).
-----
Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to
haunt him.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
How did he exceed the limitations of the flight envelope? He was going 97kts, then
went into a shallow dive, accelerated to 108kts and heard a pop, THEN, he
pulled back on the stick 1/3. If that in fact is the case, that 'manuever' doesn't
sound hairy at all.
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185422#185422
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to
haunt him.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)[/quote]
Then again, this could well be the case too. We throw these G numbers around here
all the time, after awhile it doesn't carry the same impact as it used to.
If your average non-pilot human regualrly wore a G meter all their life, that
G meter would probably never even come close to 2.2 their entire life. :)
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185425#185425
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a Copy-Clone,
so there is no control over the materials used.... This company just makes
"his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..
Gary Gower
Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote:
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf
Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot
was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot heard
a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then
started to bank and roll and he deployed the BRS chute.
Jeff
---------------------------------
Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on
AOL Food.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are
no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of
great interest.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France
Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a
Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This
company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..
Gary Gower
Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote:
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf
Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the
pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot
heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat.
He then started
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design
would most likely cut other corners.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no
different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great
interest.
>
> -- Craig
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France
That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another
companies design would most likely cut other corners.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they
are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of
great interest.
>
> -- Craig
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
But IF a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt every time he jumped.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
"Craig Payne" <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
>But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are
>no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of
>great interest.
>
>
>
>-- Craig
>
>
>
>From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower
>Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France
>
>
>
>Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a
>Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This
>company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co..
>
>
>
>Gary Gower
>
>Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote:
>
>http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf
>
>
>
>Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the
>pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot
>heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat.
>He then started
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Yes, There is something that we have learned (in the manufacturing business),
that if anyone wants to compete in prices with a much lower production volume,
the only way out is lowering labor and the material quality... This is World
Wide in any type of manufacturing, no big surprise for any of us. No saying
that this was this particular cause...
Do not archive.
Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com> wrote:
That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design
would most likely cut other corners.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no
different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great
interest.
>
> -- Craig
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts...
Do ntot archive
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France
That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another
companies design would most likely cut other corners.
craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they
are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of
great interest.
>
> -- Craig
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
Let's say the design was identical, but the materials weren't wouldn't that then
show the weak spots in the design?
Gig Giacona wrote:
> That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies
design would most likely cut other corners.
>
>
>
> craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote:
> > But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are
no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great
interest.
> >
> > -- Craig
>
--------
Andy Shontz
do not archive
CH601XL - Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/ashontz
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185458#185458
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France |
If the plane is in fact built to Zenith Specs. then the manner of the failure is
of interest to us A wing failing in mid-air and the pilot still able to save
the rest of the airframe may provide us with some answers we've all been waiting
for.I hope we'll be able to get access to the accident report.
Do not archive
Terry Turnquist
601-XL Plans
St. Peters MO
Gary Gower <ggower_99@yahoo.com> wrote: Sure, this is why we all are waiting for
the investigation(s) results: Facts...
Do ntot archive
Craig Payne <craig@craigandjean.com> wrote:
Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane
was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't
relevant to the planes we are building?
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France
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| Subject: | Re: 601 Flying Yesterday |
Thanks Scott,
I have experience section welding headers from the mandrel bent pieces you speak
of. I think I might give that a try when I get to that point.
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
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