---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/29/08: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Securing the Seats (Frank Derfler) 2. 05:30 AM - Re: 601 Flying Yesterday (cookwithgas) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: Securing the Seats (BobTezyk) 4. 05:36 AM - Re: Securing the Seats (BobTezyk) 5. 06:32 AM - Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (Gig Giacona) 6. 07:05 AM - Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (Gig Giacona) 7. 08:09 AM - Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (DaveG601XL) 8. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) (Craig Payne) 9. 11:37 AM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Aerolitellc@aol.com) 10. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Iberplanes IGL) 11. 12:11 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Jay Maynard) 12. 01:24 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (ashontz) 13. 01:31 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (ashontz) 14. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gary Gower) 15. 04:52 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Craig Payne) 16. 04:57 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gig Giacona) 17. 05:07 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Craig Payne) 18. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Jaybannist@cs.com) 19. 05:51 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gary Gower) 20. 05:53 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Gary Gower) 21. 05:58 PM - Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (ashontz) 22. 06:18 PM - Re: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France (Terry Turnquist) 23. 06:49 PM - Re: 601 Flying Yesterday (Ron Lendon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:32 AM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith601-List: Securing the Seats Ummm... if the seat cushions are attached to the airplane with a double bond adhesive, how do you wash them? --Frank Derfler -- Discussing All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.blogspot.com Pilots: See me at www.flyinflorida.com Guys: See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 Flying Yesterday From: "cookwithgas" Ron: I re-used the Carbon Steel stubs I got from William a while back for my first exhaust system. I just grinded them off and reused them. I ordered the stainless from an on-line exhaust site called Columbia River Mandrel Bending. The bends are described as: 304 Stainless, 3" Legs, 2.5" Radius, .065 Wall. the straight pipe I used was 16 gauge (also .065" w.t.) and also 304 stainless. I ended up having to bend the straight pipe with my HF bender and it wasn't nearly as pretty as the mandrel bent pipe. If I ever have to do this again I'll order some 45 mandrel bends so I don't have to do any hack bending with the HF bender. It was very nice to weld using stainless rod with my TIG. Overall I am very happy with the new system. It was one of the things I didn't like that much about the engine installation. The other thing was my intake which I recently powder-coated black and it looks a lot cleaner that way. I also checked it real good for leaks before applying the powder. The Corvair is performing very well and I like the way it is all set up right now. Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair www.cooknwithgas.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185354#185354 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:25 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Securing the Seats From: "BobTezyk" No Frank, You double bond the Velcro loop side to the cushion and the hook side to the structure. 2 one inch strips going the length of the cushion should do it. -------- do not archive Regards, Bob Tezyk N78QT - 601XL QB/ Jab3300 Working on elevator http://neo.datamatrix.com/eaglesnestestates/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=23 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185355#185355 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:22 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Securing the Seats From: "BobTezyk" Make that 2 one inch WIDE strips going the length of the cushion. -------- do not archive Regards, Bob Tezyk N78QT - 601XL QB/ Jab3300 Working on elevator http://neo.datamatrix.com/eaglesnestestates/index.php?option=com_rsgallery2&Itemid=32&catid=23 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185356#185356 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:50 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) From: "Gig Giacona" You can feel free to put your plane up on auto ramps and then tilt it down further in the back. I'm not going to do it with mine. ashontz wrote: > > Set the wheels on car ramps, then you can tilt it back further (ie. more ground clearance). Then disconnect the fuel line at the engine and try the pumps. At least you'll know it's getting fuel right up to the carb. Hopefully the carb can handle the angle. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185364#185364 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:32 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) From: "Gig Giacona" Actually that is exactly what AC90-89A suggests. They suggest a ramp not Auto ramps for nose wheel and digging a hole to drop a tail wheel in. But let's keep one thing in mind about AC90-89A. It was written to cover every type of EX-AB aircraft out there including clean sheet, never flown before aircraft. The fact that our planes are coming from kits and/or well tested planes reduces some of the issues that face us. I've gone through the AC and have thought about my test plan. On this issue I think the best thing is to test it at the max angle that can be achieved by lowering the tail and limit the initial climb to that angle. During first flight I am going to climb to 5K AGL and test for slow flight. I will be doing this over the airport. During that slow flight I will be extending the envelope for aircraft angle so I will have further data there. And this is to everyone. If you haven't read through AC90-89A I suggest you do. There seems to be several folks that the first flight was just once around the field and that isn't what the AC suggests. Al Hays wrote: > Would it be necessary to actually run the engine in performing this > ground test for fuel flow? -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185366#185366 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:01 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) From: "DaveG601XL" Good information, thanks. I will be doing a fuel flow test via the electronic fuel pump, through the mechanical pump (motor not running) for a flow and min fuel level test per the advisory circular. I do not plan on running it this way. Due to high CHT's, I cannot run at high power very long so I don't think I will get to the true minimum fuel level where the engines stops running before I overtemp it. Thanks, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, working on final assembly. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185377#185377 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:38 AM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Angle for Useable Fuel and Flow Check (?) Part of testing the fuel system is demonstrating that the system can deliver much more fuel than the engine needs. Which you can't do by simple running the engine. That is why a ground run at maximum angle into a calibrated container is hard to avoid. You will be using gravity in a high-wing and the boost pump in a low wing. True you won't be testing the capacity of the engine's fuel pump but you will be testing the flow rate of all the plumbing end-to-end. Obviously you will also the system as a hole during ground runs and flight testing. -- Craig ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:37:21 AM PST US From: Aerolitellc@aol.com Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France _http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf_ (http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf) Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started to bank and roll and he deployed the BRS chute. Jeff **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:56 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Sorry, already done on the other list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG Alberto Martin Iberplanes IGL http://www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Espa=F1a Translation: The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be maneuvering in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was destroyed. The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a banging under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until it touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM). When the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low vertical speed. Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed and that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing) failed due to a static upwards force. The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics, reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because the accelerometer was reset after the event. The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft was not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne of 290 km/h (157 knots). ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:22 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 02:36:43PM -0400, Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote: > _http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf_ > (http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf) > > Hopefully someone else can translate this better Here's a message I posted to the Zenith Builders Analysis Group list: I hadn't heard of this one, but while enlightening, it's probably not going to be definitive. I used to be fairly fluent in French. I'm not any more, mainly because my vocabulary's gone poof - and I never had the aviation terms to begin with. Nevertheless, I was able to make a rough translation: ----- The left wing failed in flight. The cause was determined to be maneuvering in excess of the aircraft's structural limits. The aircraft was destroyed. The accident flight was a local flight intended for taking pictures. The pilot began a descent at 3000 feet and 180 km/hr (97 knots), and as the speed increased to 200 km/hr (108 knots), he heard a snap and then a banging under his feet. He pulled on the stick and the left wing folded up until it touched the canopy. He estimated that he moved the stick through about a third of its total travel. The aircraft entered a spin (I think - JRM). When the aircraft was once again level, the pilot fired the BRS and descended slowly to earth, taking about a minute and touching down with a low vertical speed. Examination of the wreckage showed that the left wing root is deformed and that the spar (? - "longeron", but that has a different meaning to us English speakers, and one of the latter isn't present in the wing) failed due to a static upwards force. The pilot made a habit of flying maneuvers that, while not being aerobatics, reached an indicated 3 G on a panel-mounted accelerometer. It was not possible to determine the G forces at the time of the failure because the accelerometer was reset after the event. The aircraft is a copy of the Zenair CH601XL. The kit used by the builder is sold by a Polish manufacturer with no connection to Zenair. Zenair's documentation, and that furnished by the kit manufacturer, indicate the flight envelope is limited to -2 and +4 G. The airfoil of this aircraft was not tested to see if it met the specifications. The aircraft has a Vne of 290 km/h (157 knots). ----- Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to haunt him. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France From: "ashontz" How did he exceed the limitations of the flight envelope? He was going 97kts, then went into a shallow dive, accelerated to 108kts and heard a pop, THEN, he pulled back on the stick 1/3. If that in fact is the case, that 'manuever' doesn't sound hairy at all. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185422#185422 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France From: "ashontz" Sounds like the guy routinely overstressed his airframe, and it came back to haunt him. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 10 June)[/quote] Then again, this could well be the case too. We throw these G numbers around here all the time, after awhile it doesn't carry the same impact as it used to. If your average non-pilot human regualrly wore a G meter all their life, that G meter would probably never even come close to 2.2 their entire life. :) -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185425#185425 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:16 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co.. Gary Gower Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote: http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started to bank and roll and he deployed the BRS chute. Jeff --------------------------------- Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:37 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest. -- Craig From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co.. Gary Gower Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote: http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. He then started ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:47 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France From: "Gig Giacona" That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners. craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: > But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest. > > -- Craig -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:44 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't relevant to the planes we are building? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners. craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: > But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest. > > -- Craig -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:30:12 PM PST US From: Jaybannist@cs.com Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France But IF a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his butt every time he jumped. Jay in Dallas Do not archive "Craig Payne" wrote: >But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are >no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of >great interest. > > > >-- Craig > > > >From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Gower >Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:42 PM >To: zenith601-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France > > > >Yes, but most important, was not a Zenithair airplane at all... Was a >Copy-Clone, so there is no control over the materials used.... This >company just makes "his" kits, nothing to do with Zenith aircraft Co.. > > > >Gary Gower > >Aerolitellc@aol.com wrote: > >http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2007/85-k070707/pdf/85-k070707.pdf > > > >Hopefully someone else can translate this better but it sounds like the >pilot was at 3,000 feet @ 112 MPH and began a decent @ 120 mph and the pilot >heard a thud then a snap under his feet then he sees the left wing retreat. >He then started > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:15 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Yes, There is something that we have learned (in the manufacturing business), that if anyone wants to compete in prices with a much lower production volume, the only way out is lowering labor and the material quality... This is World Wide in any type of manufacturing, no big surprise for any of us. No saying that this was this particular cause... Do not archive. Gig Giacona wrote: That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners. craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: > But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest. > > -- Craig -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:09 PM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts... Do ntot archive Craig Payne wrote: Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't relevant to the planes we are building? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners. craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: > But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest. > > -- Craig -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185447#185447 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:46 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France From: "ashontz" Let's say the design was identical, but the materials weren't wouldn't that then show the weak spots in the design? Gig Giacona wrote: > That's a BIG if Craig. Companies that would pirate and sell another companies design would most likely cut other corners. > > > > craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: > > But if they followed the plans and used the correct materials then they are no different than a scratch builder and the cause of failure is still of great interest. > > > > -- Craig > -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185458#185458 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:06 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France If the plane is in fact built to Zenith Specs. then the manner of the failure is of interest to us A wing failing in mid-air and the pilot still able to save the rest of the airframe may provide us with some answers we've all been waiting for.I hope we'll be able to get access to the accident report. Do not archive Terry Turnquist 601-XL Plans St. Peters MO Gary Gower wrote: Sure, this is why we all are waiting for the investigation(s) results: Facts... Do ntot archive Craig Payne wrote: Unproven either way. But wouldn't you like to know for sure how the plane was built and what it was built out of? Or just assume that it isn't relevant to the planes we are building? -- Craig -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gig Giacona Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL down - France ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:57 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 Flying Yesterday From: "Ron Lendon" Thanks Scott, I have experience section welding headers from the mandrel bent pieces you speak of. I think I might give that a try when I get to that point. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI Corvair Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=185464#185464 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.