Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:06 AM - Re: New Rudder Question (DaveG601XL)
2. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Bill Pagan)
3. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Jay Maynard)
4. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Walter Carey)
5. 09:29 AM - Re: New Rudder Question (Gig Giacona)
6. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Gary Gower)
7. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Jay Maynard)
8. 12:49 PM - Re: New Rudder Question (Jim Belcher)
9. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Builder601xl@aol.com)
10. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (jaybannist@cs.com)
11. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Jim Belcher)
12. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Craig Payne)
13. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
14. 01:49 PM - New List (Afterfxllc@aol.com)
15. 02:48 PM - Re: Corrosion protection (Alf)
16. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion protection (Jimbo)
17. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (David Downey)
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a 601
fuselage by using new brackets. I could tell visually that the upper bracket
was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder. I could
not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, first flight 7/24/08.
In Phase I flight test.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196576#196576
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight characteristics
of the airplane or just the looks?
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
--- On Tue, 8/5/08, DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher@ge.com> wrote:
From: DaveG601XL <david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question
<david.m.gallagher@ge.com>
I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a
601 fuselage by using new brackets. I could tell visually that the upper
bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder. I
could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different.
Good luck,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, first flight 7/24/08.
In Phase I flight test.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196576#196576
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:
> Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight
> characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?
I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any
difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt
anyone else can, either.
The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't
konw any way it could be improved.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major
difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy,
the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone
heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage,
etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number
change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern
over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date).
I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that
still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but
the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece
canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks
pretty straight forward to me.
Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:
> Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight
> characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?
I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any
difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt
anyone else can, either.
The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't
konw any way it could be improved.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
Read some of the other messages in this thread...
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46789
Also don't read too much into the concern over the wing problems thing. It seems
that most of the changes were to combine the best of the European, AMD and Zenith
versions of the plane into a new model.
Also check out http://zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/index.html.
Finally AMD already uses that canopy latching system on 601XLs they build.
careywf(at)sbcglobal.net wrote:
> I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any
major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy,
the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone
heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage,
etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number
change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern
over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date).
>
> I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601
that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy,
but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece
canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601?
Looks pretty straight forward to me.
>
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196652#196652
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
Hello Walter,
-
With your post I start thinking that is not-that easy,- just for this r
umors, to design a new airplane...
-
A new model is not just like a cartoon in the news paper,- one new-one
-every day or week...
-
Also all Great Designers like Mr Heinz (and several others in the industry)
- cant stay still with just one model.-- Once a model is finished, th
eir mind "jumps" to a new one... is just that.- They cant stop thinking,
designing or inventing something.--
-
To design a new airplame, even if its just an improvement (from the-build
ers and pilots -comments and experiences), anyway this takes LOTS of time
...- maybe years, I think.- Some go to prototypes or production,- som
e stay as ideas and scketches...
-
In all industries, not just in the aviation industry.-there is envy,- t
his brings the idea to start rumors,- everything to stop any competitors
success...- But a good Company and a good Designer-stays.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Hard work pays...- Back to work- :-)
Do not archive.
--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Walter Carey <careywf@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: Walter Carey <careywf@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question
I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't an
y major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for
the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few-other minor modifications
. If anyone heard,-saw or knows of any major changes to the actual struct
ure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I th
ink the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a-way-for Zenith to di
stance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing prove
n to date).-
-
I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601
that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split cano
py, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type
one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system t
o a 601?-Looks pretty straight forward to me.------
-
----
Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote:
> Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the fligh
t
> characteristics of the airplane or just the looks?
I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any
difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt
anyone else can, either.
The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't
konw any way it could be improved.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi
=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
> I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
> distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
> proven to date).
Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"
The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.
> I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601
> that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split
> canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old
> type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching
> system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.
My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that
they're developing a retrofit kit.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
On Tuesday 05 August 2008 12:04, Jay Maynard wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
> > I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
> > distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
> > proven to date).
>
> Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
> model!"
Or, perhaps, a way to justify what appears to be a significant jump in price.
> The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
> turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
> lower the nose a tad.
Other old-timers may remember the story of the swept tail on the Cessna 172.
Engineering had an experimental model of the 172, on which a swept tail had
been added. Flight testing showed it was actually 2 miles per hour slower
than the straight tail, and had decided to scrap the idea. Marketing saw it,
and decreed that all 172s in the next model year would have swept tails.
Or so the story goes. The 601XL/650 is a heck of an airplane. I hate to see
minor changes that appear to be used to justify an increase in price.
--
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
================================================
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmaynard@conmicro.com writes:
The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.
They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the
most questions.
Jeff
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
Jeff,
It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is
also smaller.? Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about
that?
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Builder601xl@aol.com
Sent: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question
In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmaynard@conmicro.com writes:
The only
structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck,
and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the
nose a tad.
They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking
the most questions.
?
Jeff
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL
Autos.
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
On Tuesday 05 August 2008 14:56, Builder601xl@aol.com wrote:
> They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking
> the most questions.
I'm not a stess engineer, but that attach point and the method was one of the
few things in the 601XL that made me wonder. In a purely eyeball mode, it
doesn't look too robust.
--
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
================================================
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
> They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking
the most questions.
I've already posted Caleb's explanation of that change.
-- Craig
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Builder601xl@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question
In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jmaynard@conmicro.com writes:
The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.
They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the
most questions.
Jeff
_____
Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read
<http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000
017> reviews on AOL Autos.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
In a message dated 8/5/2008 4:08:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jaybannist@cs.com writes:
It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it
is also smaller. Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask
about that?
I looked at both of them and they looked the same size to me and I wasn't
saying there was anything sinister at all I just wonder if it should have been
done to the 601 is all. I spoke to Roger about it at Oshkosh and I except his
explanation for it. But I have always thought they should have been thicker
as do most that build one. I would be willing to bet that most look at that
part long and hard before installing it. It just seems to thin is all. I'm not
saying it is or it isn't it just looks thin when you think about what it
does.
I do like the new canopy but was told they were concerned that the center
section would be too week since they removed part of the turtle deck but I'm
sure they worked that out.
Jeff
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
Message 14
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So now do we get another list for the 650? :(
**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion protection |
Alf wrote:
> Got it. Thanks for the info. again, but when I went to order it I found TWO types
of Aluprep, the BP Cleaner and the BP Zincate II. Logic tells me it is the
Cleaner the one I need. Am I right?
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
>
> .
>
> Thruster87 wrote:
> > Hi Alf The reason you use aluprep is to remove any oxide etc from the surface
so that the alodine will work.You can tell if the surface is clean enough by
pouring water on the surface and it will adhere /run nicely on it.Alodine produces
a chemical reaction with the aluminum surface a bit like electro plating
and this layer would be removed or damaged if you then use an etch primer. Cheers
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196753#196753
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion protection |
Metal Prep #79 or Alumiprep #33 (for corroded aluminum) are the recommended clean
and
etch agents to use before Alodine. I tried Alodine without using a prep, just a
solvent wipe, and it didnt "take".
--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Alf <alebron@bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: Alf <alebron@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Corrosion protection
<alebron@bellsouth.net>
Alf wrote:
> Got it. Thanks for the info. again, but when I went to order it I found
TWO types of Aluprep, the BP Cleaner and the BP Zincate II. Logic tells me it is
the Cleaner the one I need. Am I right?
>
> Thanks again for your help.
>
>
> .
>
> Thruster87 wrote:
> > Hi Alf The reason you use aluprep is to remove any oxide etc from the
surface so that the alodine will work.You can tell if the surface is clean
enough by pouring water on the surface and it will adhere /run nicely on
it.Alodine produces a chemical reaction with the aluminum surface a bit like
electro plating and this layer would be removed or damaged if you then use an
etch primer. Cheers
>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196753#196753
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| Subject: | Re: New Rudder Question |
does the wing still have the forward angled main spar and the slight forwar
d sweep like the old one?
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com> wrote:
From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question
<jmaynard@conmicro.com>
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote:
> I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to
> distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing
> proven to date).
Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new
model!"
The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and
turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to
lower the nose a tad.
> I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 60
1
> that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split
> canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the ol
d
> type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching
> system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me.
My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that
they're developing a retrofit kit.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!)
=0A=0A=0A
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