---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/05/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:06 AM - Re: New Rudder Question (DaveG601XL) 2. 08:01 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Bill Pagan) 3. 08:17 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Jay Maynard) 4. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Walter Carey) 5. 09:29 AM - Re: New Rudder Question (Gig Giacona) 6. 09:59 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Gary Gower) 7. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Jay Maynard) 8. 12:49 PM - Re: New Rudder Question (Jim Belcher) 9. 12:57 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Builder601xl@aol.com) 10. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (jaybannist@cs.com) 11. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Jim Belcher) 12. 01:13 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Craig Payne) 13. 01:47 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 14. 01:49 PM - New List (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 15. 02:48 PM - Re: Corrosion protection (Alf) 16. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: Corrosion protection (Jimbo) 17. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: New Rudder Question (David Downey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:06:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question From: "DaveG601XL" I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a 601 fuselage by using new brackets. I could tell visually that the upper bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder. I could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, first flight 7/24/08. In Phase I flight test. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196576#196576 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:33 AM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight characteristics of the airplane or just the looks? Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 --- On Tue, 8/5/08, DaveG601XL wrote: From: DaveG601XL Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question I talked the Sebastian at Oshkosh and he said that the new rudder would fit a 601 fuselage by using new brackets. I could tell visually that the upper bracket was longer to account for the raked back angle of the new rudder. I could not get a good look at the lower bracket to see how much it was different. Good luck, -------- David Gallagher 601 XL, first flight 7/24/08. In Phase I flight test. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196576#196576 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:42 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote: > Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight > characteristics of the airplane or just the looks? I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt anyone else can, either. The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't konw any way it could be improved. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:39 AM PST US From: Walter Carey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date). I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me. Jay Maynard wrote: On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote: > Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the flight > characteristics of the airplane or just the looks? I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt anyone else can, either. The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't konw any way it could be improved. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question From: "Gig Giacona" Read some of the other messages in this thread... http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=46789 Also don't read too much into the concern over the wing problems thing. It seems that most of the changes were to combine the best of the European, AMD and Zenith versions of the plane into a new model. Also check out http://zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/index.html. Finally AMD already uses that canopy latching system on 601XLs they build. careywf(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't any major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few other minor modifications. If anyone heard, saw or knows of any major changes to the actual structure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing proven to date). > > I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me. > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196652#196652 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:22 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question Hello Walter, - With your post I start thinking that is not-that easy,- just for this r umors, to design a new airplane... - A new model is not just like a cartoon in the news paper,- one new-one -every day or week... - Also all Great Designers like Mr Heinz (and several others in the industry) - cant stay still with just one model.-- Once a model is finished, th eir mind "jumps" to a new one... is just that.- They cant stop thinking, designing or inventing something.-- - To design a new airplame, even if its just an improvement (from the-build ers and pilots -comments and experiences), anyway this takes LOTS of time ...- maybe years, I think.- Some go to prototypes or production,- som e stay as ideas and scketches... - In all industries, not just in the aviation industry.-there is envy,- t his brings the idea to start rumors,- everything to stop any competitors success...- But a good Company and a good Designer-stays. - Saludos Gary Gower Hard work pays...- Back to work- :-) Do not archive. --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Walter Carey wrote: From: Walter Carey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question I looked at the new Zenith 650 a few days ago at Oshkosh and there isn't an y major difference that I can see between the 650 and the 601XL except for the canopy, the canopy locking system and a few-other minor modifications . If anyone heard,-saw or knows of any major changes to the actual struct ure (wings, fuselage, etc) to improve or beef it up, tell us about it. I th ink the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a-way-for Zenith to di stance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing prove n to date).- - I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split cano py, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching system t o a 601?-Looks pretty straight forward to me.------ - ---- Jay Maynard wrote: On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:00:20AM -0700, Bill Pagan wrote: > Does anyone have any info as to whether the new rudder improves the fligh t > characteristics of the airplane or just the looks? I asked John Degonia, AMD's test pilot, and he says *he* can't tell any difference in how the 650 flies compared to the 601. If he can't, I doubt anyone else can, either. The 601's rudder has all the control authority you could ever want. I don't konw any way it could be improved. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:32 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote: > I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to > distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing > proven to date). Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new model!" The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to lower the nose a tad. > I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 601 > that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split > canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the old > type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching > system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me. My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that they're developing a retrofit kit. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:49:50 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question On Tuesday 05 August 2008 12:04, Jay Maynard wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote: > > I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to > > distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing > > proven to date). > > Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new > model!" Or, perhaps, a way to justify what appears to be a significant jump in price. > The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and > turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to > lower the nose a tad. Other old-timers may remember the story of the swept tail on the Cessna 172. Engineering had an experimental model of the 172, on which a swept tail had been added. Flight testing showed it was actually 2 miles per hour slower than the straight tail, and had decided to scrap the idea. Marketing saw it, and decreed that all 172s in the next model year would have swept tails. Or so the story goes. The 601XL/650 is a heck of an airplane. I hate to see minor changes that appear to be used to justify an increase in price. -- ================================================ Jim B. Belcher BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science A&P/IA Instrument Rated Pilot General Radio Telephone Certificate ================================================ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:26 PM PST US From: Builder601xl@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmaynard@conmicro.com writes: The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to lower the nose a tad. They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions. Jeff **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:35 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question From: jaybannist@cs.com Jeff, It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is also smaller.? Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about that? Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Builder601xl@aol.com Sent: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 2:56 pm Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmaynard@conmicro.com writes: The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to lower the nose a tad. They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions. ? Jeff Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:51 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question On Tuesday 05 August 2008 14:56, Builder601xl@aol.com wrote: > They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking > the most questions. I'm not a stess engineer, but that attach point and the method was one of the few things in the 601XL that made me wonder. In a purely eyeball mode, it doesn't look too robust. -- ================================================ Jim B. Belcher BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science A&P/IA Instrument Rated Pilot General Radio Telephone Certificate ================================================ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:28 PM PST US From: "Craig Payne" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question > They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions. I've already posted Caleb's explanation of that change. -- Craig From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Builder601xl@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question In a message dated 8/5/2008 1:05:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmaynard@conmicro.com writes: The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to lower the nose a tad. They also made the rear spar attach point thicker and that has me asking the most questions. Jeff _____ Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:46 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question In a message dated 8/5/2008 4:08:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jaybannist@cs.com writes: It has already been stated that the rear attach plate is thicker because it is also smaller. Is that somehow sinister? How many questions can you ask about that? I looked at both of them and they looked the same size to me and I wasn't saying there was anything sinister at all I just wonder if it should have been done to the 601 is all. I spoke to Roger about it at Oshkosh and I except his explanation for it. But I have always thought they should have been thicker as do most that build one. I would be willing to bet that most look at that part long and hard before installing it. It just seems to thin is all. I'm not saying it is or it isn't it just looks thin when you think about what it does. I do like the new canopy but was told they were concerned that the center section would be too week since they removed part of the turtle deck but I'm sure they worked that out. Jeff **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:23 PM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Zenith601-List: New List So now do we get another list for the 650? :( **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:23 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Corrosion protection From: "Alf" Alf wrote: > Got it. Thanks for the info. again, but when I went to order it I found TWO types of Aluprep, the BP Cleaner and the BP Zincate II. Logic tells me it is the Cleaner the one I need. Am I right? > > Thanks again for your help. > > > . > > Thruster87 wrote: > > Hi Alf The reason you use aluprep is to remove any oxide etc from the surface so that the alodine will work.You can tell if the surface is clean enough by pouring water on the surface and it will adhere /run nicely on it.Alodine produces a chemical reaction with the aluminum surface a bit like electro plating and this layer would be removed or damaged if you then use an etch primer. Cheers > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196753#196753 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:17 PM PST US From: Jimbo Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Corrosion protection Metal Prep #79 or Alumiprep #33 (for corroded aluminum) are the recommended clean and etch agents to use before Alodine. I tried Alodine without using a prep, just a solvent wipe, and it didnt "take". --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Alf wrote: From: Alf Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Corrosion protection Alf wrote: > Got it. Thanks for the info. again, but when I went to order it I found TWO types of Aluprep, the BP Cleaner and the BP Zincate II. Logic tells me it is the Cleaner the one I need. Am I right? > > Thanks again for your help. > > > . > > Thruster87 wrote: > > Hi Alf The reason you use aluprep is to remove any oxide etc from the surface so that the alodine will work.You can tell if the surface is clean enough by pouring water on the surface and it will adhere /run nicely on it.Alodine produces a chemical reaction with the aluminum surface a bit like electro plating and this layer would be removed or damaged if you then use an etch primer. Cheers > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196753#196753 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:49 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question does the wing still have the forward angled main spar and the slight forwar d sweep like the old one? David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Jay Maynard wrote: From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: New Rudder Question On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 08:58:14AM -0700, Walter Carey wrote: > I think the model number change (650 vs 601) is just a way for Zenith to > distance itself from the concern over the rumored wing problem (nothing > proven to date). Not even that...just a way to get press. "Hey, we've introduced a new model!" The only structural differences are the new rudder, the new canopy and turtledeck, and the wing angle of incidence was very slightly adjusted to lower the nose a tad. > I like the new canopy latching system and think it can be adapted to a 60 1 > that still has the canopy under construction. It wouldn't have a split > canopy, but the new latching system looks like it could be used on the ol d > type one-piece canopy. Any thoughts/ideas on adapting the new latching > system to a 601? Looks pretty straight forward to me. My 601 has the new latch. Works fine. It was reported here recently that they're developing a retrofit kit. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (got it!) =0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.