---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/10/08: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (vvkidd@mindspring.com) 2. 05:17 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Paul Mulwitz) 3. 05:35 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Floyd) 4. 05:48 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Trainnut01@aol.com) 5. 06:56 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Gig Giacona) 6. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Trainnut01@aol.com) 7. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Jay Maynard) 8. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Dirk Zahtilla) 9. 07:58 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Mitch Hodges) 10. 08:18 AM - Re: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Jim Belcher) 11. 08:42 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Mitch Hodges) 12. 09:30 AM - Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Gig Giacona) 13. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question (Gary Gower) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:37 AM PST US From: vvkidd@mindspring.com Subject: Zenith601-List: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question This is my first visit to the site. Recently completed my 601. During the fuel gauge calibration, using Blue Mtn EFIS Lite G4, I encountered a problem. After adding 9 gals to each tank the gauge reads full. I suspect that the float is topped out against the top of the tank. I checked all resistances both empty and full and noted the change in resistance as the float moves up and down, all appears OK there. Contacted Zenith and they said no one else had reported a problem like this. I have the long range 15 gal tanks. I bent the float 'Z' shape that Zenith described in there literature. Anyone else having this problem? Victor Kidd Charleston, WV N922VK vvkidd@mindspring.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:05 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question Hi Victor, Resistance fuel senders are notoriously inaccurate. You should adjust your float so it is reasonably accurate when showing the tank is empty. A full indication with this adjustment (and the wing dihedral) should not be taken seriously. It is standard practice to visually check your fuel level in your preflight inspection. This, along with fuel burn planning should be used for every flight. If you want a more accurate fuel gauge you should consider installing capacitance senders. These are inherently more accurate. However, still your flight planning should include planning for fuel burn and visual inspection of fuel levels before flight. Paul XL nearly done do not archive At 04:53 AM 9/10/2008, you wrote: >Recently completed my 601. During the fuel gauge calibration, using >Blue Mtn EFIS Lite G4, I encountered a problem. After adding 9 gals >to each tank the gauge reads full. I suspect that the float is >topped out against the top of the tank. I checked all resistances >both empty and full and noted the change in resistance as the float >moves up and down, all appears OK there. Contacted Zenith and they >said no one else had reported a problem like this. I have the long >range 15 gal tanks. I bent the float 'Z' shape that Zenith described >in there literature. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:15 AM PST US From: "Floyd" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question Victor, I had the same problem. I have the Dynon system. After adding 10.8 gal, the float hits the top of the tank. The problem is the 15 gal tanks are longer then the standard tanks and with the angle of the wing the float hits the top before the tank is full.. I believe the Z bend probably works for the standard tank. I made a dip stick to check the tanks. Any gas visible through the filler port is about 6 gallons in the tank. Floyd Wilkes 601XL O-200 Phase 1 complete!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:53 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question > > This is my first visit to the site. > > Recently completed my 601. During the fuel gauge calibration, using Blue > Mtn EFIS Lite G4, I encountered a problem. After adding 9 gals to each > tank the gauge reads full. I suspect that the float is topped out against > the top of the tank. I checked all resistances both empty and full and > noted the change in resistance as the float moves up and down, all appears > OK there. Contacted Zenith and they said no one else had reported a > problem like this. I have the long range 15 gal tanks. I bent the float > 'Z' shape that Zenith described in there literature. > > Anyone else having this problem? > > Victor Kidd > Charleston, WV > N922VK > vvkidd@mindspring.com > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:06 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question Victor That's just the nature of the beast. Because of the length of the tank and the dihedral of the wing you cannot prevent the float from topping out. It does not matter where in the tank you place the float it will not be able to monitor the full range of fuel levels. The FAA only requires that the float shows empty correctly. Carroll Jernigan Lenoir City TN 601XL Working on cockpit and Corvair. **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:19 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question From: "Gig Giacona" This is why I'm considering pulling the VDO senders and replacing them with capacitance senders before I mount the wings. While proper planning, preflight and fuel management is still required it seems kinda cheesy that we can't make the fuel gauge read something close to right especially when we are using something like a Dynon or Blue Mountain. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3575#203575 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:21 AM PST US From: Trainnut01@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question To be accurate a capacitance sender for 601XL would have to be long enough to extend diagonally from the outbord top to the inboard bottom of the tank. That's close to five feet on a 15 gallon tank. I think I'll buy a flow meter. Carroll do not archive **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:50 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 10:16:05AM -0400, Trainnut01@aol.com wrote: > I think I'll buy a flow meter. Do that anyway. It's more useful than I thought to know just how much fuel you're burning in any given flight regime. FWIW, I don't know which senders AMD uses, but I do know the gauge is quite accurate from 9 down to 1 gallon. Above that, as others have noted, the shape and angle of the tank gets in the way. I haven't found that not being as accurate aobve 9 gallons has been any real issue. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:02 AM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question You could also put in 2 senders (with switches) one at each end of the tank, but I too think the full indication is not nearly as important as the E, so I just wouldn't bother. Dirk ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:52 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question From: "Mitch Hodges" jmaynard wrote: > ... but I do know the gauge is quite > accurate from 9 down to 1 gallon. Above that, as others have noted, the > shape and angle of the tank gets in the way. I haven't found that not being > as accurate aobve 9 gallons has been any real issue. > Maybe I'm missing something (or the vehicles I drive/fly/float with are of the too cheap to be accurate class) but I don't recall ever having a vehicle of any sort that was very accurate at the "full" end of the tank. I guess I've always assumed that was normal due to the sender/float drawbacks. As far as the FAA/FAR regulations, I also think there must be some requirement other than "accurate at Empty" otherwise, wouldn't just a placard that says "Fuel = Empty" be sufficient! (Sorry, couldn't resist). -------- Mitch Hodges N601MH (Zenith 601HDS) Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero Wings Under Perpetual Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3593#203593 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:43 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question On Wednesday 10 September 2008 09:58, Mitch Hodges wrote: > As far as the FAA/FAR regulations, I also think there must be some > requirement other than "accurate at Empty" otherwise, wouldn't just a > placard that says "Fuel = Empty" be sufficient! (Sorry, couldn't resist). No, that was even one of the questions on the A&P written - "when must a fuel measuring system be accurate?" Ans: When it shows empty. I find this less than satisifying, although I conceed it is likely to be more important to know when the tank is empty than when it is full. A lot of stuff in certification requirements dates back to when the earth was cooling, and instrumentation was not always that accurate. Despite the physical limitations of installation in the Zenith, of the solutions that come to mind, I find the capacitive probe the most likely to give me results I could rely upon at all fuel levels. But I'd like (expense and weight ignored) to have a fuel flow meter also, so I could see just how much my actions were influencing fuel burn. I don't personally find a fuel flow gauge the sole answer. While it gives you a feeling about how much fuel you are burning, and a totalizer can give you a pretty good idea when the tank is empty, there is nothing in the tank itself measuring the present value. In other words, if the thing breaks, you may not know it until you run out of fuel. ============================================= Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue. ================================================ Jim B. Belcher BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science A&P/IA Instrument Rated Pilot General Radio Telephone Certificate ================================================ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:40 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question From: "Mitch Hodges" z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: > No, that was even one of the questions on the A&P written - "when must a fuel > measuring system be accurate?" Ans: When it shows empty. I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with my comment, but your point is well taken. I do understand that this is the only requirement for accuracy. I also understand there is a requirement that it actually be attempting to make a measurement leading up to empty. I'll just be happy to get to the point that my Volkswagen senders have an opportunity to measure something! -------- Mitch Hodges N601MH (Zenith 601HDS) Builder Log at http://www.hodges.aero Wings Under Perpetual Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3613#203613 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question From: "Gig Giacona" Let's keep one thing in mind. The regulation 91.205(b)9 reads... "(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank." The must read empty correctly comes from 23.1337 (1) Each fuel quantity indicator must be calibrated to read zero during level flight when the quantity of fuel remaining in the tank is equal to the unusable fuel supply determined under 23.959(a); Please note that the word "ONLY" doesn't appear in that paragraph. It is an FAA interpretation and subject to re-interpretation at the whim of the administrator who, at best, is going to change every 8 years or so. I won't get into the issue about if Part 23 even applies to us... 23.1 Applicability. (a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 3624#203624 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:58 AM PST US From: Gary Gower Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question Hello Jim, - The normal way to do the fuel management in a airplane.- is the Flight Pl an.-- - There, with the fuel rate of the engine, the amount of gasoline in the tank (s) before take off (fisical messure),- the distance-to fly in the char t (remember before GPS),-the wind direction and speed,- we have to esti mate (less reserve) the distance to fly and/or -time in the air. - In case there is something wrong on our estimate or find any headwind, etc. -then we need an accurate "empty gauge" to see if we can get to the alte rnate landing strip we previosly chosed in our flight plan..- - Is-better to be conservative and fly less diatance/time before refuels th an wait until the air conditioning of the plane (propeller)- stops and we beguin to sweat...- :-) - Saludos Gary Gower Flying from Chapala, Mexico. "Old pilots I had the honor to know, planned more than 45 minutes reserve i n all their flights" - --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Jim Belcher wrote: From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Recently completed Fuel Gauge Question On Wednesday 10 September 2008 09:58, Mitch Hodges wrote: > As far as the FAA/FAR regulations, I also think there must be some > requirement other than "accurate at Empty" otherwise, wouldn't just a > placard that says "Fuel = Empty" be sufficient! (Sorry, couldn't resist). No, that was even one of the questions on the A&P written - "when must a fuel measuring system be accurate?" Ans: When it shows empty. I find this less than satisifying, although I conceed it is likely to be mo re important to know when the tank is empty than when it is full. A lot of stu ff in certification requirements dates back to when the earth was cooling, and instrumentation was not always that accurate. Despite the physical limitations of installation in the Zenith, of the solutions that come to mind, I find the capacitive probe the most likely to give me results I could rely upon at all fuel levels. But I'd like (expense and weight ignored) to have a fuel flow meter also, so I could see just how much my actions were influencing fuel burn. I don't personally find a fuel flow gauge the sole answer. While it gives you a feeling about how much fuel you are burning, and a totalizer can give you a pretty good idea when the tank is empty, there is nothing in the tank itsel f measuring the present value. In other words, if the thing breaks, you may n ot know it until you run out of fuel. ==================== Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue. ======================= Jim B. Belcher BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science A&P/IA Instrument Rated Pilot General Radio Telephone Certificate ======================= =0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.