Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:04 AM - Control Problem (vvkidd@mindspring.com)
2. 05:16 AM - Re: Control Problem (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 05:21 AM - Re: Control Problem (Jonathan Starke)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: Control Problem (vvkidd@mindspring.com)
5. 06:22 AM - Re: Control Problem (vvkidd@mindspring.com)
6. 06:30 AM - Re: Control Problem (K Dilks)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: Control Problem (Jonathan Starke)
8. 07:28 AM - Re: Control Problem (Terry Turnquist)
9. 08:16 AM - Re: Control Problem (Bill Pagan)
10. 09:16 AM - Re: Control Problem (Gary Gower)
11. 10:23 AM - Re: Control Problem (DaveG601XL)
12. 10:52 AM - Re: Control Problem (Bryan Martin)
13. 05:45 PM - Rear Spar Bolt (GLJSOJ1)
14. 05:58 PM - Re: Rear Spar Bolt (jaybannist@cs.com)
15. 06:46 PM - Re: Rear Spar Bolt (vvkidd@mindspring.com)
16. 07:19 PM - Re: Rear Spar Bolt (GLJSOJ1)
17. 08:01 PM - Re: Control Problem (Dirk Zahtilla)
18. 09:20 PM - Re: Rear Spar Bolt (Bryan Martin)
Message 1
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First flight was 10/6/08.
Zenith Zodiac CH601XL N922VK
Charleston, WV, CRW RW 23, Winds 230@3
Turned left X-wind and encountered a heavy left wing. Required full Right aileron
deflection to roll back to level on downwind. Continued to require Right
aileron to remain level.
Rudder and Elevator seem OK.
Encountered same Heavy problem on Left Base.
Rolled out on Final with a smooth approach at about 70.
Touch down was very smooth, a squeaker.
Have checked all specs: fore and aft measurements on wing, wing attachment, rigging
of ailerons, flaps etc. Haven't found the problem yet.
Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the right. Don't know
why yet.
Anyone else experienced this situation or have any ideas?
Victor
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Hi Victor,
Just a couple of dumb questions.
Do you have aileron trim?
Are flaps firmly held in place? Does flap position impact the heavy left wing?
My only comment is the obvious point that a Zodiac with a pilot and
no passenger/copilot will be heavy on the left side. It is not clear
to me from you comments whether this CG offset to the left relates to
your problem or not.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
At 05:03 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
>Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the
>right. Don't know why yet.
Message 3
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Are you sure the Flaps are not asymetrical? Sounds like this could be the
problem, if it is only on downwind base and final? Is the amount of Aileron
deflection correct?
In my XL I have never even experience the left wing heavy syndrome, and looking
at the rim tab, after landing, it is perfectly flat. The only time I need to use
the aileron trim tab is when I use more fuel out of one tank than the other.
That said, I do use rudder AND aileron most of the time, an especialy on final,
when it is very gusty.
>
>Turned left X-wind and encountered a 'heavy' left wing.
>Required full Right aileron deflection to roll back to
>level on downwind. Continued to require Right aileron to remain level.
>
Message 4
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Aileron deflection is within limits 11.5 +/- 1 deg. both sides. Can't find any
problem with flaps.
I've only had two flights both in the pattern both with the same heavy wing problem.
I do not have aileron trim.
Thaks,
Victor
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jonathan Starke <jonathan@entry.co.za>
>Sent: Oct 16, 2008 8:21 AM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Control Problem
>
>
>Are you sure the Flaps are not asymetrical? Sounds like this could be the
>problem, if it is only on downwind base and final? Is the amount of Aileron
>deflection correct?
>
>In my XL I have never even experience the left wing heavy syndrome, and looking
>at the rim tab, after landing, it is perfectly flat. The only time I need to use
>the aileron trim tab is when I use more fuel out of one tank than the other.
>
>That said, I do use rudder AND aileron most of the time, an especialy on final,
>when it is very gusty.
>
>
>>
>>Turned left X-wind and encountered a 'heavy' left wing.
>>Required full Right aileron deflection to roll back to
>>level on downwind. Continued to require Right aileron to remain level.
>>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
No aileron trim. Flaps are filmly in palce and do not droop. On the second flight
I had a fellow builder on board, had to go to experience for help, he felt
that he left wing wasn't developing as much lift as the right.
This is not due to CG. After the 1st lf turn on climg-out, I have to full right
aileron to level the plane. Some rgt aileron is required on downwind. Increeased
speed seems to add to the problem. On final at abt 60, the controls seem
almost normal.
Victor
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
>Sent: Oct 16, 2008 8:15 AM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Control Problem
>
>
>Hi Victor,
>
>Just a couple of dumb questions.
>
>Do you have aileron trim?
>
>Are flaps firmly held in place? Does flap position impact the heavy left wing?
>
>My only comment is the obvious point that a Zodiac with a pilot and
>no passenger/copilot will be heavy on the left side. It is not clear
>to me from you comments whether this CG offset to the left relates to
>your problem or not.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Paul
>XL getting close
>
>
>At 05:03 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
>
>>Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the
>>right. Don't know why yet.
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Sorry to say this but i am sure you have one wing either at a different angle of
attack in relation to the other or one wing has some wash out / wash in built
in to it. IE its twisted.
Time for a full rigging check...
Had this on some RPVs I used to fly and on a microlight i bought years ago one
wing was twisted giving the same result.
Cheers
Kev
--------
Austria ...guess where I work!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9011#209011
Message 7
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When I rigged my XL, I lay on my back, behind the plane, and 'sighted' the wing
for straitness, we always do this models when building. You can sight the tail
and the wings, and then wings together, move you head until the trailing edges
of both wings line up, I am sure you will see a 'twist' The Twist is also
explained by the plane feeling normal at lower speeds, as the twist will be far
more effective at higher speeds.
Another possibilty is the washout in each aileron, is it the same, if I remember
(two years ago) it is 13mm at each tip.
HTH
Jonathan
150+ hrs and luvin it!
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
PM
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Victor, this control problem is potentially very serious. I wouldn't fly any more
until consulting with ZAC. Maybe a trim tab, stationary or electric is the
fix, but please discuss it with Zenith. Let us know the outcome, please!
Terry Turnquist
601-XL Plans
St. Peters MO
No aileron trim. Flaps are filmly in palce and do not droop. On the second flight
I had a fellow builder on board, had to go to experience for help, he felt
that he left wing wasn't developing as much lift as the right.
This is not due to CG. After the 1st lf turn on climg-out, I have to full right
aileron to level the plane. Some rgt aileron is required on downwind. Increeased
speed seems to add to the problem. On final at abt 60, the controls seem
almost normal.
Victor
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz
>Sent: Oct 16, 2008 8:15 AM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Control Problem
>
>
>Hi Victor,
>
>Just a couple of dumb questions.
>
>Do you have aileron trim?
>
>Are flaps firmly held in place? Does flap position impact the heavy left wing?
>
>My only comment is the obvious point that a Zodiac with a pilot and
>no passenger/copilot will be heavy on the left side. It is not clear
>to me from you comments whether this CG offset to the left relates to
>your problem or not.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Paul
>XL getting close
>
>
>At 05:03 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
>
>>Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the
>>right. Don't know why yet.
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Certainly don't know if this is the problem but on my RV-8 I had a heavy le
ft wing on the initial flights and turned out to be the trailing edge of th
e ailerons being slightly different-(not visible) radius.- Actully fixe
d the problem by squeezing the opposite of heavy wing (in my case the right
) aileron with seam pliers (very lightly) thus decreasing the radius and pl
acing a block of wood along the trailing edge of the heavy wing aileron and
tapping (again lightly) with a rubber mallet, thus increasing the radius
-and it actually fixed the problem to hands off.- None of this "adjustm
ent" made a visible difference but very slight differences can make a big d
ifference in handling characteristics.
-
Just an idea.
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, vvkidd@mindspring.com <vvkidd@mindspring.com> wrote:
From: vvkidd@mindspring.com <vvkidd@mindspring.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Control Problem
First flight was 10/6/08.
Zenith Zodiac CH601XL N922VK
Charleston, WV, CRW RW 23, Winds 230@3
Turned left X-wind and encountered a =A1heavy=A2 left wing. Required full
Right aileron deflection to roll back to level on downwind. Continued t
o
require Right aileron to remain level.
Rudder and Elevator seem OK.
Encountered same =A1Heavy=A2 problem on Left Base.
Rolled out on Final with a smooth approach at about 70.
Touch down was very smooth, a squeaker.
Have checked all specs: fore and aft measurements on wing, wing attachment,
rigging of ailerons, flaps etc. Haven't found the problem yet.
Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the right.
Don't know why yet.
Anyone else experienced this situation or have any ideas?
Victor
=0A=0A=0A
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Hello Victor,
-
I am still building my XL, ready to start the wings, so I cant give first h
and advise about it.
But for what you say, could be twist in either or both wings, while buildin
g them.-
How to check the rigging in your plane?- I dont know in the XL, at this m
oment,-but maybe asking someone in ZAC.
-
Any instructions/solutions you get, we all will appreciate very much sharin
g.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower
Flying from Chapala, Mexico.
701 912S
Building 601XL- Jab 3300.
--- On Thu, 10/16/08, vvkidd@mindspring.com <vvkidd@mindspring.com> wrote:
From: vvkidd@mindspring.com <vvkidd@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Control Problem
No aileron trim. Flaps are filmly in palce and do not droop. On the second
flight I had a fellow builder on board, had to go to experience for help, h
e
felt that he left wing wasn't developing as much lift as the right.
This is not due to CG. After the 1st lf turn on climg-out, I have to full
right aileron to level the plane. Some rgt aileron is required on downwind
.
Increeased speed seems to add to the problem. On final at abt 60, the cont
rols
seem almost normal.
Victor
-----Original Message-----
>From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
>Sent: Oct 16, 2008 8:15 AM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Control Problem
>
>
>Hi Victor,
>
>Just a couple of dumb questions.
>
>Do you have aileron trim?
>
>Are flaps firmly held in place? Does flap position impact the heavy left
wing?
>
>My only comment is the obvious point that a Zodiac with a pilot and
>no passenger/copilot will be heavy on the left side. It is not clear
>to me from you comments whether this CG offset to the left relates to
>your problem or not.
>
>Good luck,
>
>Paul
>XL getting close
>
>
>At 05:03 AM 10/16/2008, you wrote:
>
>>Suspect the the left wing isn't developing the same lift as the
>>right. Don't know why yet.
>
>
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Victor,
I assume your rudder is in the neutral position with the pedals even? Did you
try using rudder to lift the wing during your flights?
Good luck resolving this,
--------
David Gallagher
601 XL, first flight 7/24/08.
In Phase I flight test.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9051#209051
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
Make sure the rudder is properly centering in level flight. The Zodiac
has a powerful rudder and the plane will bank in the direction of the
rudder deflection. You can even bank the airplane with just the rudder
alone or use it to help level the wings.
>
> Turned left X-wind and encountered a heavy left wing. Required
> full Right aileron deflection to roll back to level on downwind.
> Continued to require Right aileron to remain level.
Message 13
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Hi every one
Just finished doing a full bolt on of my wings last week and when I drilled the
rear spar bolt I realized that I can't get to the nut inside the wing. My first
thought was to open up the lower skin and maybe even fashion a cover plate
with nut plates. How have others gotten around this. As as alternative what
about using a nut plate of the correct size?
thanks for any ideas
--------
601XL N676L reserved
ALMOST DONE
CHESAPEAKE VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9106#209106
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Rear Spar Bolt |
Dear GLJSOJ1 (just curious, what's your nickname? I surely can't pronounce your
real name!)
Your plans call for an opening in the bottom wing skin to get access.? The nut
should be to the rear and visible so that it can be inspected with the flaps down
as a part of every pre-flight inspection..
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: GLJSOJ1 <gljno10@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 7:44 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Rear Spar Bolt
Hi every one
Just finished doing a full bolt on of my wings last week and when I drilled the
rear spar bolt I realized that I can't get to the nut inside the wing. My first
thought was to open up the lower skin and maybe even fashion a cover plate with
nut plates. How have others gotten around this. As as alternative what about
using a nut plate of the correct size?
thanks for any ideas
--------
601XL N676L reserved
ALMOST DONE
CHESAPEAKE VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9106#209106
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Rear Spar Bolt |
The bolt is inserted through the attachment plate and spar from the front of the
wing. The nut goes on the aft side of the spar. The bolt can be inserted through
a hole in the wing fwd of the spar and with the flaps extended, the nut
attached to the bolt. It is difficult. According to 43-1 the bolt is always
inserted so that the nut is toward the trailing end of the bolt.
Victor Kidd
-----Original Message-----
>From: GLJSOJ1 <gljno10@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 16, 2008 8:44 PM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith601-List: Rear Spar Bolt
>
>
>Hi every one
>
>Just finished doing a full bolt on of my wings last week and when I drilled the
rear spar bolt I realized that I can't get to the nut inside the wing. My first
thought was to open up the lower skin and maybe even fashion a cover plate
with nut plates. How have others gotten around this. As as alternative what
about using a nut plate of the correct size?
>
>thanks for any ideas
>
>--------
>601XL N676L reserved
>ALMOST DONE
>CHESAPEAKE VA
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9106#209106
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rear Spar Bolt |
Thanks for the replies. No nick name, just letters from names combined. I should
be heading to the airport in the next few weeks, just got a few issues with
the canopy and the engine to work out.
--------
601XL N676L reserved
ALMOST DONE
CHESAPEAKE VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9123#209123
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Control Problem |
I agree on two points. First don't fly again till you find the problem and
fix it. Second, a likely problem is different washout between the two wings.
It's really easy to check with a four foot or longer level or other straight
edge placed on the wing tip area with the plane on a level surface and
measure to the floor at front and back. The measurements should be really
close (I'm not sure what the spec is right now)from wing to wing. Sounds
like the right wing has a greater angle of incidence so more lift. The
danger is if you bank left too hard you may be unable to recover without
doing something radical like full roll to the left, which is not a good idea
in the pattern.
Don't mean to scare you but I have been in this exact situation and I was
not happy!
Best of luck
Dirk
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Rear Spar Bolt |
I cut an access a hole through the fuselage side skin to install this
bolt. The bolt should be inserted from the inside of the wing with the
nut installed outside between the wing and the flap. This is for ease
of inspection and for access with a torque wrench.
>
> Just finished doing a full bolt on of my wings last week and when I
> drilled the rear spar bolt I realized that I can't get to the nut
> inside the wing.
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
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