---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/22/08: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:50 AM - Re: Canopy Safety (Frank Derfler) 2. 05:02 AM - Re: Re: Canopy Safety (Jay Maynard) 3. 09:25 AM - Re: props (Gig Giacona) 4. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: props (Jim Belcher) 5. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: props (Jay Maynard) 6. 12:03 PM - Re: props (Gig Giacona) 7. 12:16 PM - CH 650 canning supression angle (France) 8. 01:46 PM - CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight (kevstewart) 9. 02:11 PM - 601XL Tail Light Kit For Sale (Dave VanLanen) 10. 02:32 PM - Re: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight (LarryMcFarland) 11. 02:43 PM - Re: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight (Dirk Zahtilla) 12. 02:51 PM - Re: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight (Dirk Zahtilla) 13. 05:28 PM - Re: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight (Jay Maynard) 14. 05:47 PM - Re: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight (jaybannist@cs.com) 15. 10:43 PM - 601xl aeilerons (K Dilks) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:25 AM PST US From: "Frank Derfler" Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Canopy Safety I wasn't going to tell this story because I've already taken enough ribbing... but there I was... My AMD-made 601XL always sits outside, so I lock the canopy handle after every flight. I did all of my pre-flight one day and went flying. But, after I landed, the interior unlock handle wouldn't budge. I immediately had a sneaking suspicion what happened. When I lifted the canopy my key ring was still in the lock. It rotated enough to re-lock the handle. So there I was, snug inside my locked up 601 on a beautiful sunny and hot Florida Keys day. Yes, AMD has some nice holes in the canopy rail and yes I could have practiced pulling on both cables with my fingers, but why bother with that? Our local chapter of the EAA has a hangar right at the approach end of runway 07 at Marathon. And yes, the senior members of the buzzards roost sit on lawn chairs in the shade of the hangar grading landings... and solving the problems of the world over and over again. They had just awarded me a 9.1 on my landing, which is about as high as they ever go, so I simply taxied over there to my friends, shut down, and waved the boys over. After they teetered and tottered to the airplane, I managed to make my situation known by shouting through the canopy. One of them finally put the box from his hearing aid on the plastic and got the problem. After they understood, I two-fingered the canopy key out to them through the vent port in the canopy expecting them to unlock the handle. Well of course, then the fun began. Right there around my airplane they started an auction for the key. Proceeds to go to the chapter, of course. I was forced to bid from inside my sauna box cockpit. Often, they "couldn't hear" my bid before they raised the bidding again. The bottom line is that the chapter is now well off financially and the boys on buzzards roost now have something to hold over my head. After I got it properly shimmed, I've never had a problem keeping the canopy closed. But, if you lock your canopy handle, beware the key! Do a quick check of the handle movement before you make the first "click". -- Frank Derfler, Marathon in the Florida Keys Twitter! Follow me at http://Twitter.com/Fderfler See my new Novel, "A Glint in Time" at http://GreatGuyBooks.com. See my discussion of All the Guy Toys that aren't (clearly) illegal or (blatantly) immoral at http://mostlyflying.com Anybody who READS (anybody out there?) See www.greatguybooks.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:46 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Canopy Safety On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 07:50:11AM -0400, Frank Derfler wrote: > if you lock your canopy handle, beware the key! Do a quick check of the > handle movement before you make the first "click". Hm. Just another reason to like the new-style canopy latch: with the handle on the fuselage, instead of the canopy, the key wouldn't turn this way. In fact, while it's theoretically possible to close the canopy without moving the handle, in practice, it's not: the bolts sit on top of the flat part of the latch hooks, and no amount of pushing will make the canopy latch. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:00 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: props From: "Gig Giacona" In all seriousness if I found a prop maker that would custom build a wooden prop for less than Sensenich did there is no way I fly behind it. I checked my records and the exact price was $725 + $26 shipping for my 64x43 prop. I ordered mine in February of this year and got it about 11 week later. Just for fun do three Google searches and look at the hit counts at the top of the page and then think how long Sensenich has been building props and how many are out there as opposed the others. IVO Prop Failure Warpdrive Prop Failure Sensenich Prop Failure z601(at)anemicaardvark.co wrote: > On Tuesday 21 October 2008 16:02, Gig Giacona wrote: > > > > Why not just have Sensenich make you one? My custom prop (which spins the > > wrong way) was a little under $800. > > > > > > That's cheaper than I would have expected. I'll consider them. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9857#209857 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:00 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: props On Wednesday 22 October 2008 11:24, Gig Giacona wrote: > > In all seriousness if I found a prop maker that would custom build a wooden > prop for less than Sensenich did there is no way I fly behind it. There supposedly are some good non-certificated prop makers out there. At one time, one lived in my area (about 30 miles from here, near Marfa, Texas). His props were legendary, but he's long since deceased, or I'd at least pay him a visit. But, as I think you are suggesting, there is some bottom line price at which one can make a quality prop (or anything else, for that matter). I suspect the numbers you quote from Sensenich are at or near that value. > I checked my records and the exact price was $725 + $26 shipping for my > 64x43 prop. I ordered mine in February of this year and got it about 11 > week later. Those are good numbers to have. What I needed was a good source, a price, and a typical delivery. That tells me about when in my building process to invest the capital in the prop. Do you by chance have a part number, or did they quote solely based on diameter and pitch? If that's the prop I think it is, it's the one AMD used on the FAR23 version of the 601XL. In that case, it's a known good match to an O200. While I'm building an experimental aircraft, I'd really like to limit the number of things I'm experimenting with at any one time. I'm surprised Sensenich's price is that low. I guess I'm accustomed to their metal props, which sometimes ran in the $2,500-$3,000 range when I bought them for relatively non-complex GA aircraft. Thanks! ============================================= Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue. ================================================ Jim B. Belcher BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science A&P/IA Instrument Rated Pilot General Radio Telephone Certificate ================================================ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:53 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: props On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:52:26AM -0500, Jim Belcher wrote: > > I checked my records and the exact price was $725 + $26 shipping for my > > 64x43 prop. > If that's the prop I think it is, it's the one AMD used on the FAR23 version > of the 601XL. Nope. The AMD prop is a 68x57 wood/composite...at least on my aircraft. I suspect a 64x43 would be badly underpitched. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:45 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: props From: "Gig Giacona" Without a doubt there are some great wooden prop makers out there. But they ain't cheap. And since they are in most cases handmade getting the exact same thing twice is tough. Sensenich, on the other hand, has years of experience making certified props that have to be the same every single time. And for the record my one off prop is balanced as well as I can measure. And believe me when I say, when it was at my house I tried a bunch of different things to check the balance. http://www.sensenichprop.com/index.htm Their website has plenty of info including a section that deals with specific engines and experimental planes. This guy can answer ALL your questions. Charley Denny Sales and Technical Support Sensenich Wood Propeller Co. Inc. 2008 Wood Court Plant City, FL. 33563 813-752-3711 813-752-2818 Fax -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9881#209881 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:35 PM PST US From: "France" Subject: Zenith601-List: CH 650 canning supression angle Hi 601 and 650 Group I just want to know what size of the angle .016 or .025 , and location on wing and fuselage on the Zodiac CH 650. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:18 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight From: "kevstewart" Hi All, I need some advice. Today I flew a very nicely finished XL (with a view to buying it) that has recently had the Y stick changed to the dual sticks. I have never flown a 601 before but I noted that the aircraft was quite sensitive in pitch on the elevators but very heavy in roll on the ailerons. Is this normal? I noted on the ground that the aileron movement from the P2 position may have been heavier than from the P1 position. Is it rigged too tightly or is this just how it is? Any advice gratefully received. Thanks, Kevin -------- Recreational pilot flying out of EGHD Plymouth, UK. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 9903#209903 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:11:37 PM PST US From: "Dave VanLanen" Subject: Zenith601-List: 601XL Tail Light Kit For Sale I decided to install a different lighting system on my 601XL, so I will not be using the rudder tail light assembly that I got with my kit. According to the Zenith website, the cost of the tail light kit (8002TL) is $72.80. If you are interested, I will ship it to you for $40 in the US, (if out-of-country, I'll need to determine shipping costs first). I also have the fiberglass tail light bracket (FTB), which I will include for no additional charge, (it is not the best quality, but with some work it could be used, or if you don't want to use it you could order another from Zenith for $20.80 + shipping). E-mail me off-list if you are interested. Thanks, Dave Van Lanen Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:29 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight Hi Kevin, The aileron movement might be a little stiffer in roll because they depend on flexing the .016 aluminum rather than hinges. Cables should not be too tight, but nearer 20-25 lbs rather than commercial aircraft 30-40 lbs. Likely it's the Zenith flex hinge but you can remove that if it was done right and put in regular hinges if you want. With the larger span, I'd expect the XL to be a little more drawn out on roll response. And yes, the elevator is pitch sensitive, but you do get comfortable with that quickly.. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com kevstewart wrote: > > Hi All, > > I need some advice. Today I flew a very nicely finished XL (with a view to buying it) that has recently had the Y stick changed to the dual sticks. > > I have never flown a 601 before but I noted that the aircraft was quite sensitive in pitch on the elevators but very heavy in roll on the ailerons. Is this normal? > > I noted on the ground that the aileron movement from the P2 position may have been heavier than from the P1 position. > > Is it rigged too tightly or is this just how it is? > > Any advice gratefully received. > > Thanks, > > Kevin > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:27 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight Hi Kevin, I am just starting building (from scratch) an XL and I recently got checked out in a factory version and indeed the aileron control was very heavy to the point where I have borrowed a set of RV6 plans to copy their ailerons whitch are the lightest and smothest I've ever flown. If you're planning buying a finished plane it might be possible to modify the ailerons but could be a lot of work. As this is my 3rd homebuilt I hae learned that the main reason for the heavy ailerons is that they are not balanced. That means that the hinges are at the very front of the aileron. If you look at other designs, especially aerobatic planes the hinge point may be as much as 25% rear of the leading edge. The effect of this is when deflcted the leading edge pressure offsets the trailing edge pressure, in the most extreme cases there is literally 0 pressure required at the stick. Hope thats not too much info, and if not enough, let me know... Dirk Z Carson City, Nv. USA Hi All, > > I need some advice. Today I flew a very nicely finished XL (with a view to > buying it) that has recently had the Y stick changed to the dual sticks. > > I have never flown a 601 before but I noted that the aircraft was quite > sensitive in pitch on the elevators but very heavy in roll on the > ailerons. Is this normal? > > I noted on the ground that the aileron movement from the P2 position may > have been heavier than from the P1 position. > > Is it rigged too tightly or is this just how it is? > > Any advice gratefully received. > > Thanks, > > Kevin > > -------- > Recreational pilot flying out of > EGHD Plymouth, UK. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:59 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight > > > Hi Kevin,again The XL I checked out in, factory plane with piano hinges on ailerons and dual sticks...way too heavy and I'd hate cross contry with so much effort required. > Dirk Z > Carson City, Nv. USA > > Hi All, >> >> I need some advice. Today I flew a very nicely finished XL (with a view >> to buying it) that has recently had the Y stick changed to the dual >> sticks. >> >> I have never flown a 601 before but I noted that the aircraft was quite >> sensitive in pitch on the elevators but very heavy in roll on the >> ailerons. Is this normal? >> >> I noted on the ground that the aileron movement from the P2 position may >> have been heavier than from the P1 position. >> >> Is it rigged too tightly or is this just how it is? >> >> Any advice gratefully received. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kevin >> >> -------- >> Recreational pilot flying out of >> EGHD Plymouth, UK. > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:46 PM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 04:30:48PM -0500, LarryMcFarland wrote: > The aileron movement might be a little stiffer in roll because they depend > on flexing the .016 aluminum rather than hinges. Actually, Kevin's note matched the comments I've gotten from other pilots who've flown with me, and AMD uses piano hinges. I think that's just the way the aircraft flies. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight From: jaybannist@cs.com If there is an autopilot installed, that also makes the ailerons a bit stiffer. Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Jay Maynard Sent: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 7:27 pm Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: CH601XL roll sensitivity & aileron control weight On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 04:30:48PM -0500, LarryMcFarland wrote: > The aileron movement might be a little stiffer in roll because they depend > on flexing the .016 aluminum rather than hinges. Actually, Kevin's note matched the comments I've gotten from other pilots who've flown with me, and AMD uses piano hinges. I think that's just the way the aircraft flies. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:36 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: 601xl aeilerons From: "K Dilks" So following todays little flood of mails about the heavy ailerons , what if any mods have people done to make this easier?. I flew a Tecnam JF 2002 at the weekend and the ailerons are the similar but with balance weight extending forward. I wonder why CH has not put this on and if it could be done so without great modifications. Kit gets here 27november ........... :) -------- Austria ...guess where I work! 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