---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/03/08: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:19 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle) 1. 06:41 AM - Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding (Gig Giacona) 2. 06:53 AM - Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding (K Dilks) 3. 06:56 AM - Re: Zenith-List: XL grounded in Spain (Gig Giacona) 4. 08:12 AM - Re: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding (Jay Maynard) 5. 08:19 AM - Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 11/02/08 (Joe Scheibinger) 6. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding (Terry Turnquist) 7. 09:39 AM - Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and groundin (Gig Giacona) 8. 10:35 AM - Re: Strange goop in the overflow bottle (Jimbo) 9. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and groundin (Iberplanes IGL) 10. 12:02 PM - Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and groundin (Gig Giacona) 11. 03:46 PM - Re: Strange goop in the overflow bottle (LarryMcFarland) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:22 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith601-List: Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... Dear Listers, Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution too! The Contribution Site is fast and easy: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding From: "Gig Giacona" When the NTSB investigates an accident they designer/manufacture is virtually always involved. How else would a bunch of bureaucrats have any idea the calculations went into a design? As far as our emotions are involved. I haven't read too many posts lately that showed overt emotional content. But of course we care. Stuff like this effects the value of our aircraft even if there isn't an issue and if there is it means that there is a problem with something many of us have several years and thousands of dollars on. If you think there was too much emotion in any of my posts on the European actions it is because I hate it when governments do stupid things. And since it looks like Tuesday we are going to become a more European like nation it bothers more than it might normally. skyguynca wrote: > OK, now I really don't see how or why they need to contact the designer. > When a factory certified line gets grounded they get notified and that is > all. The investigation needs to remain separate from the designers and > companys to assure a through investigations is done. > > Now after reading all these replies don't you guys see how personally you > are taking this whole thing? Your planes are not grounded, your not being > investigated, so why all the commotion and emotions? I could understand if > the FAA grounded all 601XL's in the US but that is not the case. > > Try remaining unemotional, non-speculative and just wait for the findings of > the CAA. > > > David M. > > -- -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212049#212049 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding From: "K Dilks" W.R. "Gig" Giacona And whats the problem with being European then? Please consider what you say. -------- Austria ...guess where I work! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212051#212051 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:06 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith-List: XL grounded in Spain From: "Gig Giacona" bryanmmartin wrote: > > > > > 5/2/2007, Canadian, TX. Walker Zenith Zodiac 601 XL, N10028, Fatal(1), NTSB Identification: DFW07LA102 > > And this one departed "...from the airport in deteriorating weather conditions that consisted of low ceilings, reduced visibility, heavy rain, and lightning." and the findings were clear. Occurrence #1: IN FLIGHT ENCOUNTER WITH WEATHER Phase of Operation: MANEUVERING Findings 1. (F) WEATHER CONDITION - LOW CEILING 2. (C) PREFLIGHT PLANNING/PREPARATION - POOR - PILOT IN COMMAND 3. (F) WEATHER CONDITION - RAIN ---------- Occurrence #2: AIRFRAME/COMPONENT/SYSTEM FAILURE/MALFUNCTION Phase of Operation: MANEUVERING Findings 4. (C) WING - SEPARATION 5. (C) DESIGN STRESS LIMITS OF AIRCRAFT - EXCEEDED - PILOT IN COMMAND ---------- Occurrence #3: LOSS OF CONTROL - IN FLIGHT Phase of Operation: DESCENT - UNCONTROLLED ---------- Occurrence #4: IN FLIGHT COLLISION WITH TERRAIN/WATER Phase of Operation: DESCENT - UNCONTROLLED Findings Legend: (C) = Cause, (F) = Factor -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212053#212053 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:00 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 06:53:27AM -0800, K Dilks wrote: > And whats the problem with being European then? I'm not going to try to speak for Gig, but the notion that it's acceptable for a bureaucrat to ground all aircraft of a given type and then go on vacation, totally preventing any investigation or work to remedy the situation, would be unheard of in the US. No government should arbitrarily and capriciously exert that level of control over anyone's life and then go on vacation as though nothing had happened. In the US, that would produce aqn emergency lawsuit designed to get the government back to doing its job. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:31 AM PST US From: "Joe Scheibinger" Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 23 Msgs - 11/02/08 Brian, Thanks for listing the accidents. It seems from your list that the large majority of the accidents had 2 souls aboard. Could this be a gross weight problem? It's pretty easy to overload a 601 with full fuel and two people. Joe in Oshkosh ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:03 AM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and grounding Gentleman, I know emotions get ramped up on this subject, but frankly I'm glad some kind of action is being forced on Zenith. It's easy for them to make a few cosmetic changes to a design and change names, but we 601 XL builders are the ones taking it up the butt financially on this deal and possibly risking said butt when flying this airplane. Bring on the flames! Terry Turnquist 601XL Plans St. Peters, MO On Mon, Nov 03, 2008 at 06:53:27AM -0800, K Dilks wrote: > And whats the problem with being European then? I'm not going to try to speak for Gig, but the notion that it's acceptable for a bureaucrat to ground all aircraft of a given type and then go on vacation, totally preventing any investigation or work to remedy the situation, would be unheard of in the US. No government should arbitrarily and capriciously exert that level of control over anyone's life and then go on vacation as though nothing had happened. In the US, that would produce aqn emergency lawsuit designed to get the government back to doing its job. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and groundin From: "Gig Giacona" And what action is Zenith being forced to take that they weren't already taking? The Dutch bureaucrat that grounded the plane in Holland (and because of EU regulations other countries) is off on vacation. The directive from Zenith Europe was to fly in the envelope and check tension on the cables. I knew I needed to do that before I bought the plans. ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Gentleman, I know emotions get ramped up on this subject, but frankly I'm glad > some kind of action is being forced on Zenith. It's easy for them to make a few cosmetic changes to a design and change names, but we 601 XL builders are the > ones taking it up the butt financially on this deal and possibly risking said butt when flying this airplane. Bring on the flames! > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212098#212098 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:57 AM PST US From: Jimbo Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Strange goop in the overflow bottle You didnt say, but can we assume it is a Rotax 912 of some sort? If so, did you use Evans waterless coolant or an automotive coolant and wat er mixture? --- On Sun, 11/2/08, LarryMcFarland wrote: From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Zenith601-List: Strange goop in the overflow bottle m> Hi Guys, This week begins the Annual Inspection of my 601HDS and one of the first things was a coolant leak that dripped ever so slightly from the coolant overflow bottle. Large filler hoses were moved out of the way. I tried to siphon the last half-inch of coolant, but goop on the bottom prevented it. The coolant bottle was removed and the last half-pint of coolant was poured into another bottle. The bottom goop was very different from the clean and transparent coolant. It was gray-black and didn=A2t act or feel like oil. After flushing the goop out of the bottle in two level chunks, I put the goop on paper and it dried to a gray-black cake. Rubbed between the fingers, it felt like an extremely fine compound. The bottle was refilled and set on a shelf to check it again for leakage. There was a leak spot on the back firewall side where the bottle contacts a rivet head. I've another bottle to install but was very curious about the accumulated 1/8-inch of goop on the bottom of the coolant bottle. Any ideas of what it might be? I've never encountered this before. It's not oil, nor does it leave a carbon trace on the fingers. It washes off like regular soil. Volume was 1/8 x 2 x 3 lg. The coolant bottle has never been changed or cleaned, but my coolant has been changed twice at 60 hours. Any ideas? Thank you for your response, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:09 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and groundin guys, how do you know that the Dutch is on vacation? Quite extrange because the season is over and I=B4m affected by this "bureacrat" THX 2008/11/3 Gig Giacona > > And what action is Zenith being forced to take that they weren't already > taking? The Dutch bureaucrat that grounded the plane in Holland (and beca use > of EU regulations other countries) is off on vacation. > > The directive from Zenith Europe was to fly in the envelope and check > tension on the cables. I knew I needed to do that before I bought the pla ns. > > > ter_turn(at)yahoo.com wrote: > > Gentleman, I know emotions get ramped up on this subject, but frankly I 'm > glad > > some kind of action is being forced on Zenith. It's easy for them to ma ke > a few cosmetic changes to a design and change names, but we 601 XL builde rs > are the > > ones taking it up the butt financially on this deal and possibly riskin g > said butt when flying this airplane. Bring on the flames! > > > > > -------- > W.R. "Gig" Giacona > 601XL Under Construction > See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212098#212098 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:43 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Zenair Europe's comments on the Dutch accident and groundin From: "Gig Giacona" >From here http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page349.htm "On Saturday October 25, Zenair Sarl was informed by a Dutch Zodiac XL owner that the Dutch CAA had issued an emergency Airworthiness Directive the previous day, calling for the immediate grounding of all Zodiac XL in the Netherlands, effective immediately. This came as a complete surprise to Zenair Europe, Zenair Ltd and Zenith Aircraft Co. as none of us had been previously contacted by the Dutch authorities. We were further surprised that the basis for the NL-CAA action was a preliminary accident report that offers no new findings regarding the Zodiac XL design. Rather it makes allusion to various other accidents and suggests that the calculated strength of the design is probably too optimistic. Zenair is eager to discuss the basis for these statements with the Dutch CAA and is keenly awaiting the return of CAA staff from their seasonal holiday...." Iberplanes wrote: > guys, > > how do you know that the Dutch is on vacation? Quite extrange because the season is over and Im affected by this "bureacrat" > > THX > > -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212132#212132 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:43 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Strange goop in the overflow bottle Hi Jimbo, I fly a Stratus Subaru and use 50/50 de-ionized water and anti-freeze. I've never tried the waterless stuff. The goop when burned, smelled like rubber, so I must presume the residue is hose material that gets worn off the inside diameter by the fast moving coolant. Then it gathers up at my overflow when the engine is shut down and collects in the bottom of my coolant bottle. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Jimbo wrote: > You didnt say, but can we assume it is a Rotax 912 of some sort? > If so, did you use Evans waterless coolant or an automotive coolant > and water mixture? > > > --- On *Sun, 11/2/08, LarryMcFarland //* wrote: > > From: LarryMcFarland > Subject: Zenith601-List: Strange goop in the overflow bottle > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com, "stratus-list" > > Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > Hi Guys, > > This week begins the Annual Inspection of my 601HDS and one of the first > things was a coolant leak that dripped ever so slightly from the > coolant > overflow bottle. Large filler hoses were moved out of the way. I tried > to siphon the last half-inch of coolant, but goop on the bottom > prevented it. The coolant bottle was removed and the last half-pint of > coolant was poured into another bottle. The bottom goop was very > different from the clean and transparent coolant. It was gray-black and > didnt act or feel like oil. After flushing the goop out of the bottle > in two level chunks, I put the goop on paper and it dried to a > gray-black cake. Rubbed between the fingers, it felt like an extremely > fine compound. The bottle was refilled and set on a shelf to check it > again for leakage. There was a leak spot on the back firewall side where > the bottle contacts a rivet head. I've another bottle to install but was > very curious about the accumulated 1/8-inch of goop on the bottom of the > coolant bottle. Any ideas of what it might be? I've never > encountered > this before. It's not oil, nor does it leave a carbon trace on the > fingers. It washes off like regular soil. Volume was 1/8 x 2 x 3 lg. The > coolant bottle has never been changed or cleaned, but my coolant has > been changed twice at 60 hours. Any ideas? > > Thank you for your response, > > Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com > > > * > > * ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.