Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:02 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Sabrina)
2. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet))
3. 07:58 AM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Gig Giacona)
4. 08:30 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Sabrina)
5. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Terry Phillips)
6. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (jaybannist@cs.com)
7. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Paul Mulwitz)
8. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Jay Maynard)
9. 10:37 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Martin Pohl)
10. 04:01 PM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Bryan Martin)
11. 05:53 PM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Bill Naumuk)
12. 06:32 PM - Progress report (Ron Lendon)
13. 06:45 PM - Re: Progress report (jaybannist@cs.com)
14. 09:28 PM - Re: Progress report (TxDave)
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
"But, they are lighter in only one place: The landing gear... Other than that,
CZAW 601XL's are identical or even beefed up a bit compared to the standard Zenair
601XL. I believe" Terry
Terry,
Different CZAW 601XLs have different skin thicknesses, especially the kits as pointed
out by Alex. The attached photo is of an EU CZAW kit. The QQ-A-250/11
does not designate a .025 skin, look up at the 0.016 in
6-B-3 08/05 specs .025 on the US version. .025 is 56% more AL than .016, so our
rear fuselage skins alone weigh 56% more than the CZAW kit.
The FAA reads this list, we can't keep telling them that the all CZAW 601XL are
built "identical" or "beefed up" compared to our aircraft if it is not necessarily
true. They may start believing us.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214673#214673
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/0016_148.jpg
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
CZAW XL's are lighter because the undercarriage gear is made out of carbon.
That's the ONLY difference. On some 601's flying in Europe the part of the
wing where you put your feet (on the black anti slip pieces) is a half
milimeter thicker. On each wing 40 x 80 cm.
Regards, Eric Tiethoff
The Netherlands.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jugle" <glenn@eastcoastit.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:59 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands
>
> Can someone please clarify?
>
> As I understand it the CZAW 601s have a lower MTOW and are built from
> lighter material in some areas, correct?
>
> So, obviously the cable tensions need to be correct regardless, but does
> this mean the CZAW versions are more susceptible to the problem?
>
> Glenn.
>
> --------
> Glenn Andressen
> 601XL- Rudder, Stabiliser partially completed, Wing ribs, nose ribs
> done, numerous other parts made.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214595#214595
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location |
psm(at)att.net wrote:
> I put the fuel pump on the firewall, but the gascolator on the cabin
> floor as indicated on the drawings.
>
> The gascolator needs to be at the lowest point of the fuel system,
> and I don't think you can do that forward of the firewall.
>
>
Well you can just not with the Zenith designed fuel system. The fuel system for
the WW Corvair install has two pumps and the gasolator forward of the firewall
here is a photo. And yes the gasolator is at the lowest point.
Here's a photo.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214692#214692
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/db_fuel_system_169.jpg
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Eric,
1/2 mm = .020 Are you sure some CZAW kit builders did not elect to use .020
top skins as opposed to .016 and that is where the 1/2mm figure is coming from?
Can you reply with pictures of your skins supplied by CZAW showing the grade/thickness?
Our plans spec .025 at 6-W-8, adding 1/2mm or .020 to it would make it .045 wing
at that point. I have seen leading edges patched together, but I have never
seen a picture of a 40 x 80 cm patch on a top skin like you talk about. Could
you reply with a picture of that too?
There is a lot of confusion here in the US and your photos would be greatly appreciated.
Thanking you in advance...
Alex... I would send your photo to Zenith, it seems that this is exactly what the
AMD service letter is getting at. Whether you have a Zenith kit, CZAW or AMD,
I am sure they would appreciated the photos. Ask them about the new 650 aileron
gussets. By the way... is your aircraft kept in a hangar? Do you lock
your control stick when it is kept outdoors?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214698#214698
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Very good point, Sabrina. and a very interesting photo.
I wasn't aware of Alex's photo. Where did you find it, BTW? My search fails
me in trying to locate it. Alex's photo points out a good example of a CZAW
"beef up," i.e., the diagonal bracing in the fuselage side panels. I don't
recall seeing that in my B-23. I believe that ZAC did copy that feature in
the 650. It is probably a good idea and I will probably add it to my 601XL.
Regarding the skin thickness, one must also be aware that CH's designs also
change over the years. Fortunately, ZAC has documented these changes on
their website. See, e.g.,
http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/xl-update-3rd-ed-1st-rev-4-05.pdf
where you find the following:
6-B-3 04/05 REAR SIDE SKINS
1) new page layout: Moved 6B3-3 and 6B3-4 to drawing 6-B-1 (01/05)
2) 6B3-1 Rev. 2 change material thickness from t=.016" to t=.025" (12/04)
3) 6B3-2 deleted battery access option (area is now accessible through
bottom access
panel) (12/04)
4) 6B3-6 Rev 1 new width at front and rear, changed 67 to 61 , 251 to 272mm
(03/05)
5) New parts 6B3-7 and 6B3-8 piano hinge and bottom fuselage access panel.
(12/04)
6) Re-positioned 6B1-7 between the Z and 6B5-2 (12/04)
note: the aft rivet line through the fairing 6G3-2 is the same rivet line
through the piano
hinge and Z angle.(12/04)
7) Deleted Gusset 6B3-5 (01/05)
8) Add nutplate 21075L3 (02/05)
9) Added A4 pitch 20 bottom skin 6B1-4 into 6B1-1 (02/05)
10) middle diagram: 340mm between rivets for the H.T frames (measured on
center line)
(03/05)
11) top right diagram: riveting L angles to side skin 6B3-1 changed pitch
from 60 to 40
(04/05)
Where I've colored item 2) to red for emphasis.
So, while I will readily agree with you that CZAW may have changed skin
thicknesses, etc., over the years, I'm not yet ready to agree that their
kit differs from ZAC except for the "beefing up" and the landing gear
already cited. While their changes may (and I emphasize may because I don't
have their design history) have lagged ZAC's would not be very suprising,
because they would have had to react to whatever ZAC published.
If you can show me examples of "light weight" CZAW designs, materials,
etc., that differ from ZAC's designs, I'm ready to admit your point.
Terry
At 07:01 AM 11/17/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>"But, they are lighter in only one place: The landing gear... Other than
>that, CZAW 601XL's are identical or even beefed up a bit compared to the
>standard Zenair 601XL. I believe" Terry
>
>Terry,
>
>Different CZAW 601XLs have different skin thicknesses, especially the kits
>as pointed out by Alex. The attached photo is of an EU CZAW kit. The
>QQ-A-250/11 does not designate a .025 skin, look up at the 0.016 in
>
>6-B-3 08/05 specs .025 on the US version. .025 is 56% more AL than .016,
>so our rear fuselage skins alone weigh 56% more than the CZAW kit.
>
>The FAA reads this list, we can't keep telling them that the all CZAW
>601XL are built "identical" or "beefed up" compared to our aircraft if it
>is not necessarily true. They may start believing us.
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Why is it that some of those, who know FOR SURE, swear that the European XLs are
stronger and lighter than the US version; and others, who know FOR SURE, swear
that the European XL is lighter and weaker than the US version; and still
others, who know FOR SURE, swear that there is no difference? Someone, please
'splain how that can be to this poor ole country boy!?
I AM just smart enough to know that all these positions (actually opinions) can't
be true. I really hate to say it, but some of you either don't know what you
are talking about, or you are lying, or both. Prove me wrong!
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet) <j.e.tiethoff@hccnet.nl>
Sent: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 9:45 am
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands
?
CZAW XL's are lighter because the undercarriage gear is made out of carbon.
That's the ONLY difference. On some 601's flying in Europe the part of the
wing where you put your feet (on the black anti slip pieces) is a half
milimeter thicker. On each wing 40 x 80 cm.?
?
Regards, Eric Tiethoff?
The Netherlands.?
?
--------------------------------------------------?
From: "Jugle" <glenn@eastcoastit.net>?
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:59 PM?
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands?
?
>?
> Can someone please clarify??
>?
> As I understand it the CZAW 601s have a lower MTOW and are built from
> lighter material in some areas, correct??
>?
> So, obviously the cable tensions need to be correct regardless, but does
> this mean the CZAW versions are more susceptible to the problem??
>?
> Glenn.?
>?
> --------?
> Glenn Andressen?
> 601XL- Rudder, Stabiliser partially completed, Wing ribs, nose ribs
> done, numerous other parts made.?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> Read this topic online here:?
>?
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214595#214595?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
>?
> ?
?
?
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Hi Jay,
I agree with your question, but I would like to add another one.
How is it that the Dutch government has determined the design load
calculations indicate an error on the designer's part but the
Brittish government sees the same design as adequate?
I've been watching all these opinions by both qualified and
unqualified people for years and still I believe we don't know
anything at all about the structural failures. There are, however,
many people who are SURE they know what is wrong.
I am feeling good about Bill of Georgia's comments today about lose
cables. He is one of the people who have actually experienced the
vibrations and survived. His observation that his cables were loose
suggests to me that we should all keep a close watch on those cables.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 09:42 AM 11/17/2008, you wrote:
>Why is it that some of those, who know FOR SURE, swear that the
>European XLs are stronger and lighter than the US version; and
>others, who know FOR SURE, swear that the European XL is lighter and
>weaker than the US version; and still others, who know FOR SURE,
>swear that there is no difference? Someone, please 'splain how that
>can be to this poor ole country boy!
>
>I AM just smart enough to know that all these positions (actually
>opinions) can't be true. I really hate to say it, but some of you
>either don't know what you are talking about, or you are lying, or
>both. Prove me wrong!
>
>Jay in Dallas
>Do not archive
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 09:58:18AM -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> His observation that his cables were loose suggests to me that we should
> all keep a close watch on those cables.
Indeed. Cable tension checks are now part of my 50-hour routine, right next
to checking the prop bolt torque.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
> 601xl from CZAW also have is that the angle of attack of the wing is flatter
Just to clarify: The angle of incidence on the CZAW CH601XL is 2 bigger (i.e. steeper)
than on the US-version which results in a more nose-down flying attitude
at the same airspeed (this was now taken over in the CH650).
I believe that the CZAW engine mount was slightly lengthened to compensate for
the light weight engine (and to keep the C.G. at its necessary position).
Martin
CZAW QBK CH601XL
--------
Martin Pohl
Zodiac XL QBK
8645 Jona, Switzerland
www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214726#214726
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Subject: | Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location |
As long as your fuel lines slope downhill all the way to the
gascolator and then slope uphill to the engine, the gascolator can go
anywhere you want it. The gascolator should be at the low point of the
fuel system or it can't do as good a job of trapping any water passing
through the system.
On Nov 16, 2008, at 10:26 PM, AZFlyer wrote:
>
> Has anybody installed their gasolator and/or electric fuel pump on
> fwd side of firewall?
>
> In one of Bingelis' how-to books he comments that most often this is
> where those are installed; but the materials with the 601XL and many
> builders feel it necessary to put a big hole in floor of the cockpit
> and plumb the gasolator in there.
>
> Would like to hear from some of you with experience in this area...
>
--
Bryan Martin
CH 601 XL
Builder No: 64003
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location |
Mike-
Possibly, yes. Corvairs use a setup similar to the attached pictures for
HDSs. The main idea is to keep the primary ignition components cool via a
box fed by a rear engine baffle mounted SCAT tube.
I'm waiting the on components to finish my installation, which is a
direct rip-off of proven projects. I'll post pictures of the completed
effort if you'd like.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "AZFlyer" <millrML@AOL.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Gasolator and Fuel pump location
>
> Has anybody installed their gasolator and/or electric fuel pump on fwd
> side of firewall?
>
> In one of Bingelis' how-to books he comments that most often this is where
> those are installed; but the materials with the 601XL and many builders
> feel it necessary to put a big hole in floor of the cockpit and plumb the
> gasolator in there.
>
> Would like to hear from some of you with experience in this area...
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> --------
> Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
> 601 XL, 3300, Dynon
>
> Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214626#214626
>
>
>
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Today marks the end of scratch building my wife's (right) wing. That makes the
tail feathers and wings complete. I just had to tell somone :D
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214814#214814
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Progress report |
Ron,
Every accomplishment deserves credit.? Congratulations!!
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net>
Sent: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 8:31 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Progress report
Today marks the end of scratch building my wife's (right) wing. That makes the
tail feathers and wings complete. I just had to tell somone :D
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214814#214814
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
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Subject: | Re: Progress report |
Congratulations, Ron. Perseverance pays off.
Dave Clay
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214832#214832
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