---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/17/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:02 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Sabrina) 2. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet)) 3. 07:58 AM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Gig Giacona) 4. 08:30 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Sabrina) 5. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Terry Phillips) 6. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (jaybannist@cs.com) 7. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Paul Mulwitz) 8. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Jay Maynard) 9. 10:37 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Martin Pohl) 10. 04:01 PM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Bryan Martin) 11. 05:53 PM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Bill Naumuk) 12. 06:32 PM - Progress report (Ron Lendon) 13. 06:45 PM - Re: Progress report (jaybannist@cs.com) 14. 09:28 PM - Re: Progress report (TxDave) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:02 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands From: "Sabrina" "But, they are lighter in only one place: The landing gear... Other than that, CZAW 601XL's are identical or even beefed up a bit compared to the standard Zenair 601XL. I believe" Terry Terry, Different CZAW 601XLs have different skin thicknesses, especially the kits as pointed out by Alex. The attached photo is of an EU CZAW kit. The QQ-A-250/11 does not designate a .025 skin, look up at the 0.016 in 6-B-3 08/05 specs .025 on the US version. .025 is 56% more AL than .016, so our rear fuselage skins alone weigh 56% more than the CZAW kit. The FAA reads this list, we can't keep telling them that the all CZAW 601XL are built "identical" or "beefed up" compared to our aircraft if it is not necessarily true. They may start believing us. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214673#214673 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/0016_148.jpg ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:23 AM PST US From: "Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet)" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands CZAW XL's are lighter because the undercarriage gear is made out of carbon. That's the ONLY difference. On some 601's flying in Europe the part of the wing where you put your feet (on the black anti slip pieces) is a half milimeter thicker. On each wing 40 x 80 cm. Regards, Eric Tiethoff The Netherlands. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jugle" Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:59 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands > > Can someone please clarify? > > As I understand it the CZAW 601s have a lower MTOW and are built from > lighter material in some areas, correct? > > So, obviously the cable tensions need to be correct regardless, but does > this mean the CZAW versions are more susceptible to the problem? > > Glenn. > > -------- > Glenn Andressen > 601XL- Rudder, Stabiliser partially completed, Wing ribs, nose ribs > done, numerous other parts made. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214595#214595 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location From: "Gig Giacona" psm(at)att.net wrote: > I put the fuel pump on the firewall, but the gascolator on the cabin > floor as indicated on the drawings. > > The gascolator needs to be at the lowest point of the fuel system, > and I don't think you can do that forward of the firewall. > > Well you can just not with the Zenith designed fuel system. The fuel system for the WW Corvair install has two pumps and the gasolator forward of the firewall here is a photo. And yes the gasolator is at the lowest point. Here's a photo. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214692#214692 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/db_fuel_system_169.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:13 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands From: "Sabrina" Eric, 1/2 mm = .020 Are you sure some CZAW kit builders did not elect to use .020 top skins as opposed to .016 and that is where the 1/2mm figure is coming from? Can you reply with pictures of your skins supplied by CZAW showing the grade/thickness? Our plans spec .025 at 6-W-8, adding 1/2mm or .020 to it would make it .045 wing at that point. I have seen leading edges patched together, but I have never seen a picture of a 40 x 80 cm patch on a top skin like you talk about. Could you reply with a picture of that too? There is a lot of confusion here in the US and your photos would be greatly appreciated. Thanking you in advance... Alex... I would send your photo to Zenith, it seems that this is exactly what the AMD service letter is getting at. Whether you have a Zenith kit, CZAW or AMD, I am sure they would appreciated the photos. Ask them about the new 650 aileron gussets. By the way... is your aircraft kept in a hangar? Do you lock your control stick when it is kept outdoors? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214698#214698 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:32 AM PST US From: Terry Phillips Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands Very good point, Sabrina. and a very interesting photo. I wasn't aware of Alex's photo. Where did you find it, BTW? My search fails me in trying to locate it. Alex's photo points out a good example of a CZAW "beef up," i.e., the diagonal bracing in the fuselage side panels. I don't recall seeing that in my B-23. I believe that ZAC did copy that feature in the 650. It is probably a good idea and I will probably add it to my 601XL. Regarding the skin thickness, one must also be aware that CH's designs also change over the years. Fortunately, ZAC has documented these changes on their website. See, e.g., http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/xl-update-3rd-ed-1st-rev-4-05.pdf where you find the following: 6-B-3 04/05 REAR SIDE SKINS 1) new page layout: Moved 6B3-3 and 6B3-4 to drawing 6-B-1 (01/05) 2) 6B3-1 Rev. 2 change material thickness from t=.016" to t=.025" (12/04) 3) 6B3-2 deleted battery access option (area is now accessible through bottom access panel) (12/04) 4) 6B3-6 Rev 1 new width at front and rear, changed 67 to 61 , 251 to 272mm (03/05) 5) New parts 6B3-7 and 6B3-8 piano hinge and bottom fuselage access panel. (12/04) 6) Re-positioned 6B1-7 between the Z and 6B5-2 (12/04) note: the aft rivet line through the fairing 6G3-2 is the same rivet line through the piano hinge and Z angle.(12/04) 7) Deleted Gusset 6B3-5 (01/05) 8) Add nutplate 21075L3 (02/05) 9) Added A4 pitch 20 bottom skin 6B1-4 into 6B1-1 (02/05) 10) middle diagram: 340mm between rivets for the H.T frames (measured on center line) (03/05) 11) top right diagram: riveting L angles to side skin 6B3-1 changed pitch from 60 to 40 (04/05) Where I've colored item 2) to red for emphasis. So, while I will readily agree with you that CZAW may have changed skin thicknesses, etc., over the years, I'm not yet ready to agree that their kit differs from ZAC except for the "beefing up" and the landing gear already cited. While their changes may (and I emphasize may because I don't have their design history) have lagged ZAC's would not be very suprising, because they would have had to react to whatever ZAC published. If you can show me examples of "light weight" CZAW designs, materials, etc., that differ from ZAC's designs, I'm ready to admit your point. Terry At 07:01 AM 11/17/2008 -0800, you wrote: >"But, they are lighter in only one place: The landing gear... Other than >that, CZAW 601XL's are identical or even beefed up a bit compared to the >standard Zenair 601XL. I believe" Terry > >Terry, > >Different CZAW 601XLs have different skin thicknesses, especially the kits >as pointed out by Alex. The attached photo is of an EU CZAW kit. The >QQ-A-250/11 does not designate a .025 skin, look up at the 0.016 in > >6-B-3 08/05 specs .025 on the US version. .025 is 56% more AL than .016, >so our rear fuselage skins alone weigh 56% more than the CZAW kit. > >The FAA reads this list, we can't keep telling them that the all CZAW >601XL are built "identical" or "beefed up" compared to our aircraft if it >is not necessarily true. They may start believing us. Terry Phillips ZBAGer ttp44~at~rkymtn.net Corvallis MT 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands From: jaybannist@cs.com Why is it that some of those, who know FOR SURE, swear that the European XLs are stronger and lighter than the US version; and others, who know FOR SURE, swear that the European XL is lighter and weaker than the US version; and still others, who know FOR SURE, swear that there is no difference? Someone, please 'splain how that can be to this poor ole country boy!? I AM just smart enough to know that all these positions (actually opinions) can't be true. I really hate to say it, but some of you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are lying, or both. Prove me wrong! Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Eric Tiethoff (HCCNet) Sent: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 9:45 am Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands ? CZAW XL's are lighter because the undercarriage gear is made out of carbon. That's the ONLY difference. On some 601's flying in Europe the part of the wing where you put your feet (on the black anti slip pieces) is a half milimeter thicker. On each wing 40 x 80 cm.? ? Regards, Eric Tiethoff? The Netherlands.? ? --------------------------------------------------? From: "Jugle" ? Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:59 PM? Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands? ? >? > Can someone please clarify?? >? > As I understand it the CZAW 601s have a lower MTOW and are built from > lighter material in some areas, correct?? >? > So, obviously the cable tensions need to be correct regardless, but does > this mean the CZAW versions are more susceptible to the problem?? >? > Glenn.? >? > --------? > Glenn Andressen? > 601XL- Rudder, Stabiliser partially completed, Wing ribs, nose ribs > done, numerous other parts made.? >? >? >? >? > Read this topic online here:? >? > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214595#214595? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? >? > ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:54 AM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands Hi Jay, I agree with your question, but I would like to add another one. How is it that the Dutch government has determined the design load calculations indicate an error on the designer's part but the Brittish government sees the same design as adequate? I've been watching all these opinions by both qualified and unqualified people for years and still I believe we don't know anything at all about the structural failures. There are, however, many people who are SURE they know what is wrong. I am feeling good about Bill of Georgia's comments today about lose cables. He is one of the people who have actually experienced the vibrations and survived. His observation that his cables were loose suggests to me that we should all keep a close watch on those cables. Paul XL getting close do not archive At 09:42 AM 11/17/2008, you wrote: >Why is it that some of those, who know FOR SURE, swear that the >European XLs are stronger and lighter than the US version; and >others, who know FOR SURE, swear that the European XL is lighter and >weaker than the US version; and still others, who know FOR SURE, >swear that there is no difference? Someone, please 'splain how that >can be to this poor ole country boy! > >I AM just smart enough to know that all these positions (actually >opinions) can't be true. I really hate to say it, but some of you >either don't know what you are talking about, or you are lying, or >both. Prove me wrong! > >Jay in Dallas >Do not archive ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:34 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands On Mon, Nov 17, 2008 at 09:58:18AM -0800, Paul Mulwitz wrote: > His observation that his cables were loose suggests to me that we should > all keep a close watch on those cables. Indeed. Cable tension checks are now part of my 50-hour routine, right next to checking the prop bolt torque. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands From: "Martin Pohl" > 601xl from CZAW also have is that the angle of attack of the wing is flatter Just to clarify: The angle of incidence on the CZAW CH601XL is 2 bigger (i.e. steeper) than on the US-version which results in a more nose-down flying attitude at the same airspeed (this was now taken over in the CH650). I believe that the CZAW engine mount was slightly lengthened to compensate for the light weight engine (and to keep the C.G. at its necessary position). Martin CZAW QBK CH601XL -------- Martin Pohl Zodiac XL QBK 8645 Jona, Switzerland www.pohltec.ch/ZodiacXL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214726#214726 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:51 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Gasolator and Fuel pump location As long as your fuel lines slope downhill all the way to the gascolator and then slope uphill to the engine, the gascolator can go anywhere you want it. The gascolator should be at the low point of the fuel system or it can't do as good a job of trapping any water passing through the system. On Nov 16, 2008, at 10:26 PM, AZFlyer wrote: > > Has anybody installed their gasolator and/or electric fuel pump on > fwd side of firewall? > > In one of Bingelis' how-to books he comments that most often this is > where those are installed; but the materials with the 601XL and many > builders feel it necessary to put a big hole in floor of the cockpit > and plumb the gasolator in there. > > Would like to hear from some of you with experience in this area... > -- Bryan Martin CH 601 XL Builder No: 64003 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:36 PM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Gasolator and Fuel pump location Mike- Possibly, yes. Corvairs use a setup similar to the attached pictures for HDSs. The main idea is to keep the primary ignition components cool via a box fed by a rear engine baffle mounted SCAT tube. I'm waiting the on components to finish my installation, which is a direct rip-off of proven projects. I'll post pictures of the completed effort if you'd like. Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "AZFlyer" Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:26 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Gasolator and Fuel pump location > > Has anybody installed their gasolator and/or electric fuel pump on fwd > side of firewall? > > In one of Bingelis' how-to books he comments that most often this is where > those are installed; but the materials with the 601XL and many builders > feel it necessary to put a big hole in floor of the cockpit and plumb the > gasolator in there. > > Would like to hear from some of you with experience in this area... > > Thanks, > Mike > > -------- > Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com > 601 XL, 3300, Dynon > > Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"! > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214626#214626 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Progress report From: "Ron Lendon" Today marks the end of scratch building my wife's (right) wing. That makes the tail feathers and wings complete. I just had to tell somone :D do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214814#214814 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Progress report From: jaybannist@cs.com Ron, Every accomplishment deserves credit.? Congratulations!! Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Ron Lendon Sent: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 8:31 pm Subject: Zenith601-List: Progress report Today marks the end of scratch building my wife's (right) wing. That makes the tail feathers and wings complete. I just had to tell somone :D do not archive -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214814#214814 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:39 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Progress report From: "TxDave" Congratulations, Ron. Perseverance pays off. Dave Clay Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214832#214832 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.