Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:20 AM - What Members Are Saying... (Matt Dralle)
1. 02:23 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (aerobat)
2. 09:23 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (David X)
3. 02:05 PM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Jugle)
4. 02:18 PM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (pavel569)
5. 02:40 PM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (PatrickW)
6. 03:27 PM - Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location (Bill Naumuk)
7. 03:38 PM - Re: Progress report (Bill Naumuk)
8. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Dirk Zahtilla)
9. 06:13 PM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (David X)
10. 07:27 PM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Terry Phillips)
11. 08:14 PM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (David X)
12. 09:21 PM - Re: Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Terry Phillips)
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| Subject: | What Members Are Saying... |
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
I am not convinced that flutter is the problem. It would appear that a lot of XLs
have now been checked and found to have incorrect control cables yet were flying
ok.
The fact is there have been several in flight breakups now yet there are many much
older types flying around with wood / aluminium creaking and slack cables
without dropping out of the sky.
I will not be at all unhappy if the British authorities say some sort of wing attachment
fix is required before mine can fly again.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214927#214927
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
You are correct about the gear, the hinges and the trim tab. However, the CZAW
sold in the US were to LSA standards and had the heavier Grove spring aluminum
gear. The materials come from the US and are identical to what you get in the
kit from Missouri. There may be some versions made for other markets ... but
I can only speak my experience with those made for the US market.
I don't know that the trim or the hinges have a lot to do with flutter. I would
think loose cables would be more critical in that respect. The hinge-less kind
of aileron's have more play than the piano hinges (my observation) ... but who
is to say that doesn't help rather than hurt. It's really hard to say.
Terry Phillips wrote:
> Glenn
>
> You are right. CZAW 601XL's are lighter. But, they are lighter in only one
> place: The landing gear.
>
> CZAW used the composite gear sold by Aircraft Spruce. The Aircraft Spruce
> landing gear is limited to 550 kg gross, which is less than the Zenair 600
> kg (1320 lb) gross. However, I believe that some of the CZAW 601XL's that
> made it to the US were registered with 600 kg gross. See:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/compositelg.php
>
> Other than that, CZAW 601XL's are identical or even beefed up a bit
> compared to the standard Zenair 601XL. I believe that all CZAW 601XL's use
> the piano hinged aileron and incorporate the electric aileron trim option.
> In fact, I believe that if you check with someone who owns a CZAW 601XL,
> you'll find that the aileron piano hinge has been beefed up beyond the
> standard Zenair piano hinge.
>
> So, if the cable tension is more critical for the CZAW built 601XL's than
> for the Zenair 601XL's (personally, I do not believe that it is), the
> difference would evidently lie in the hinges or the trim option. (Note that
> not all Zenair 601XL's have piano hinges or aileron trim tabs, while all
> CZAW 601XL's apparently have those options.)
>
> Terry
>
>
> At 02:59 PM 11/16/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
> > Can someone please clarify?
> >
> > As I understand it the CZAW 601s have a lower MTOW and are built from
> > lighter material in some areas, correct?
> >
> > So, obviously the cable tensions need to be correct regardless, but does
> > this mean the CZAW versions are more susceptible to the problem?
> >
> > Glenn
> >
> >
>
>
> Terry Phillips ZBAGer
> ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
> Corvallis MT
> 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
> are done; working on the wings
> http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214984#214984
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
So in your original post David, you mention you were contacted by the FAA and the
NTSB, apparently because yours is a CZAW 601.
Now, there have been a number of answers to my question about the weight difference
in the US & European spec. 601s, which all seem to say that it has nothing
to do with how robust the airframe is, but rather relating to the landing gear
construction. Fair enough.
We know that flutter can be an issue on all models and the cables need to be checked
for tension regularly on all models, so why have they contacted you and
not every other owner?
They must have said something along the lines of "Okay, this guy has a European
spec 601, we'd better talk to him." Is that purely because they have been grounded
there?
Glenn.
--------
Glenn Andressen
601XL- Rudder, Stabiliser partially completed, Wing ribs, nose ribs done, numerous
other parts made.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215045#215045
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
I still see no way how to save 100lbs on the gear itself. Maybe on Boeing 747,
but 601? I don't think so. I don't have a scale with me right now but my guess
would be that the heavy US Zodiac XL gear weights about 35-40lbs.
--------
Pavel
CA
Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table ....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215048#215048
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Just put mine on the scale. With axles, but without wheels/tires, the big chunk
of aluminum weights 47.8 lbs.
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215052#215052
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gear_843.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Gasolator and Fuel pump location |
Mike-
Check out the archives- there are many 601 builders with primary
electric/plumbing on the engine side of the firewall.
do not archive.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Naumuk" <naumuk@alltel.net>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Gasolator and Fuel pump location
> Mike-
> Possibly, yes. Corvairs use a setup similar to the attached pictures
> for
> HDSs. The main idea is to keep the primary ignition components cool via a
> box fed by a rear engine baffle mounted SCAT tube.
> I'm waiting the on components to finish my installation, which is a
> direct rip-off of proven projects. I'll post pictures of the completed
> effort if you'd like.
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AZFlyer" <millrML@AOL.com>
> To: <zenith601-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:26 PM
> Subject: Zenith601-List: Gasolator and Fuel pump location
>
>
>>
>> Has anybody installed their gasolator and/or electric fuel pump on fwd
>> side of firewall?
>>
>> In one of Bingelis' how-to books he comments that most often this is
>> where
>> those are installed; but the materials with the 601XL and many builders
>> feel it necessary to put a big hole in floor of the cockpit and plumb the
>> gasolator in there.
>>
>> Would like to hear from some of you with experience in this area...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> Mike Miller @ millrml@aol.com
>> 601 XL, 3300, Dynon
>>
>> Remember, "the second mouse gets the cheese"!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214626#214626
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Progress report |
Ron-
No better place to tell someone.
Did you try E-Harmony to see what the response would be? If you
got a good hit, let me know. Is she rich and unsatisfied with her Lear?
do not archive
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Progress report
Ron,
Every accomplishment deserves credit. Congratulations!!
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Lendon <rlendon@comcast.net>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 8:31 pm
Subject: Zenith601-List: Progress report
Today marks the end of scratch building my wife's (right) wing. That
makes the
tail feathers and wings complete. I just had to tell somone :D
do not archive
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214814#214814
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Next somebody will tell us they put helium bags in the wings, JEEZ!
Dirk
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
It may be that the NTSB investigator assumed that the aircraft was Euro spec because
it was imported. He did not know it was an LSA until I told him. This information
is not readily available on the public FAA N-Number lookup. I probably
got a call from the FAA to get permission to give my phone number to the NTSB
investigator. The FAA guy had a few questions too.
I'm guessing that the NTSB is just following all evidence wherever it takes them.
At least a few of the incidents of flutter, in my mind, are related to cable
slack (at least the pilots are alive to tell us that their cable tensions were
not to spec). I, and others, are keenly interested in what might be behind
some of the unexplained fatal incidents.
For now, the obvious thing to do is keep your cables to spec. using a cable tension
meter. I was surprised how many around the globe had out-of-spec cables.
I will be checking these every 50 hours. It's not a big deal and it affords an
opportunity to look inside the fuselage at the rear wing attach points etc.
Jugle wrote:
> We know that flutter can be an issue on all models and the cables need to be
checked for tension regularly on all models, so why have they contacted you and
not every other owner?
>
> They must have said something along the lines of "Okay, this guy has a European
spec 601, we'd better talk to him." Is that purely because they have been grounded
there?
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215088#215088
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
David & Patrick.
Thank you for confirming about the hinges and trim, David.
The pieces are starting to come together. I was surprised that CZAW would
sell their 601XL for US use at 600 kg gross with a gear rated at 550 kg.
Apparently, they did not. The only CZAW 601XL in the US for which I had
definite landing gear information did have the composite gear. But I just
checked and that 601XL's gross was 1232 lbs, not 1320. Substituting the
Grove gear is a very nice option to get back to 600 kg gross. I saw Larry
Winger's gundrilled Grove gear and it was very, very, nice.
The Grove website says that their 601XL gear is rated at 1320 lbs, and
weighs 32.2 lbs, which is about 10 lbs less than the ZAC gear (per 6-G-3).
The Grove gear is 7/8" thick 7075-T6 while the ZAC gear is 3/4" 6061-T6, so
the profile of the Grove gear must be significantly reduced from the ZAC
profile. I wish I had the engineering skills to determine whether
significant weight (i.e., aluminum) could be removed from the ZAC gear
while maintaining strength >= the Grove gear. Ah, well, it would probably
not be worth the effort.
Terry
At 09:22 AM 11/18/2008 -0800, David X wrote:
>You are correct about the gear, the hinges and the trim tab. However, the
>CZAW sold in the US were to LSA standards and had the heavier Grove spring
>aluminum gear. The materials come from the US and are identical to what
>you get in the kit from Missouri. There may be some versions made for
>other markets ... but I can only speak my experience with those made for
>the US market.
>
>I don't know that the trim or the hinges have a lot to do with flutter. I
>would think loose cables would be more critical in that respect. The
>hinge-less kind of aileron's have more play than the piano hinges (my
>observation) ... but who is to say that doesn't help rather than hurt.
>It's really hard to say.
>At 02:39 PM 11/18/2008 -0800, PatrickW wrote:
>Just put mine on the scale. With axles, but without wheels/tires, the big
>chunk of aluminum weights 47.8 lbs.
>
>- Pat
>
>--------
>Patrick
>601XL/Corvair
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
If by "reduced" you mean thinner, the Grove gear is actually 1/8 inch thicker (if
indeed it is 7/8" vs. ZAC 3/4".
10 lbs is significant. Every bit adds up. The paint might weight 3 to 4 lb/gallon
after it dries. You can save some weight by replacing the electric flap motor
with a pull lever. If you live in a warm climate, use a smaller battery and
save a few lbs. The wheels make a big difference depending on what you choose
etc. I'm sure there are a lot of weight saving tips out there.
Terry Phillips wrote:
>
> The Grove website says that their 601XL gear is rated at 1320 lbs, and
> weighs 32.2 lbs, which is about 10 lbs less than the ZAC gear (per 6-G-3). The
Grove gear is 7/8" thick 7075-T6 while the ZAC gear is 3/4" 6061-T6, so the
profile of the Grove gear must be significantly reduced from the ZAC profile.
>
--------
Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=215104#215104
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
David
Since 7/8" is thicker than 3/4", by reduced profile I didn't mean
"thinner". By profile, I meant the shape cut from the sheet aluminum, be it
3/4" or 7/8" thick. Probably a poor choice of words.
I don't actually know that the Grove gear is 7/8" thick. That's just the
thickness shown on the Grove website:
http://www.groveaircraft.com/landing_gear.html
Similarly, I haven't measured the thickness of my ZAC gear. But 6-G-3 gives
it as 3/4".
I just checked the yield strength of the two alloys: 73,000 psi for the
7075 vs. 40,000 psi for the 6061. It would appear that the Grove gear is
probably lighter only because it uses a higher strength alloy, which allows
for a smaller profile. Since
weight = area * thickness * density
Assuming the density of the two alloys is the same, and given the Grove
weight of 32.2 lbs and the ZAC weight of 43 lbs, I calculate that the area
of the Grove gear must be ~64% of the area of the ZAC gear. But one could
not achieve that small profile with 6061 because of its lower strength.
Yeah, there are lots of ways to trim 10 or 20 lbs off the takeoff weight.
My wife suggests I start with the 20 lbs around my waist :-)
Terry
At 08:13 PM 11/18/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>If by "reduced" you mean thinner, the Grove gear is actually 1/8 inch
>thicker (if indeed it is 7/8" vs. ZAC 3/4".
>
>10 lbs is significant. Every bit adds up. The paint might weight 3 to 4
>lb/gallon after it dries. You can save some weight by replacing the
>electric flap motor with a pull lever. If you live in a warm climate, use
>a smaller battery and save a few lbs. The wheels make a big difference
>depending on what you choose etc. I'm sure there are a lot of weight
>saving tips out there.
>
>
>Terry Phillips wrote:
> >
> > The Grove website says that their 601XL gear is rated at 1320 lbs, and
> > weighs 32.2 lbs, which is about 10 lbs less than the ZAC gear (per
> 6-G-3). The Grove gear is 7/8" thick 7075-T6 while the ZAC gear is 3/4"
> 6061-T6, so the profile of the Grove gear must be significantly reduced
> from the ZAC profile.
> >
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
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