Today's Message Index:
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0. 12:16 AM - Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:54 AM - Re: To drag the tail or not (P.H. Raker)
2. 06:45 AM - Re: Working table height (pavel569)
3. 06:52 AM - Re: To drag the tail or not. (Leo Gates)
4. 06:58 AM - Re: To drag the tail or not. (jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 11:00 AM - NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (PLAV8R)
6. 11:03 AM - N158md crash, LAX07FA026 (n787xl@aol.com)
7. 11:27 AM - 601XL crash Yuba City, CA (n787xl@aol.com)
8. 12:07 PM - Re: To drag the tail or not. (Leo Gates)
9. 12:27 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Patrick Best)
10. 12:53 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Dave Austin)
11. 01:26 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Dirk Zahtilla)
12. 03:28 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) (Sabrina)
13. 03:59 PM - Re: N158md crash, LAX07FA026 (Gig Giacona)
14. 04:56 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Peter Chapman)
15. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) (Paul Mulwitz)
16. 08:11 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (PLAV8R)
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| Subject: | Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution |
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Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: To drag the tail or not |
Ivor,
---- I completely agree with all of what Larry wrote.- Another co
nsideration is this.- I've flown mostly tri-gear Cessnas and Pipers, and
have gotten used to flying a certain attitude in the flair for landing.-
If you fly that attitude (quite nose-high) with a tail-dragger 601, you'll
definitely arrive tailwheel first - generally not good.- (The three-point
attitude on the tail-dragger 601 is pretty close to level.)- With the tr
icycle gear and no extra wheel under the tail, you can flair the CH601 some
what more aggressively-giving a lower touchdown speed and thus a shorter
landing roll.- That's a big part of why Chris designed the 701 as a tri-g
ear rather than a tail-dragger.- (Rear the "design college" pages about S
TOL on the Zenith web site.)- It's one more thing to consider.
-
Phil Raker---- N556P---- HDS/Stratus---- ~85% compl
eted
-
-
-
Larry McFarland wrote:
-
Hi Ivor,
I've a great appreciation for the tail dragger as I started with PA-12
and then a Luscombe 8A. The nose gear offers a better steering option in
rough conditions
than the tail dragger. I know what it's like to have to gun it to break
the tail loose from a bundle of grass or gravel.- The positive steering
of the nose gear is much
like the little red wagon for positive direction.- You can't pivot about
one gear like the brake assist tail dragger, but you can plan better for
maneuvering and you don't
have the shock of the tailwheel hammering back thru the fuselage.- When
you're parked and tied down, the aircraft is better aligned with the
breezes too, so for my
money, the best dollar is spent on having the extra wheel up front.- I
always land on the mains, slow a lot and then let down carefully on the
nose gear, so it shouldn't
be a problem.- Having the rudder and the nose wheel tied together is
sweet, but I don't use the rudder in normal flight. That might be
different in the XL.
Best regards,
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Ivor Link wrote:
>-
> *Subject:* To drag the tail or not.
> I'm in the early stages of scratch building an 601 XL - The intent is
> to visit bush areas to hike around the country ( I chose the 601 over
> the 701 merely from the point of view that the cruise speed provides a
> better weekend range radius). The question begs to be answered should
> I build it with the training wheel on the tail?- I learnt to fly on
> military taildraggers so am not intimidated - but seeing as the plane
> looks just as sexy with a nose wheel, I was wondering whether there
> are any stories of strength concerns with the nosewheel set up in
> rough airfield conditions?
> Ivor Link
> South Africa
=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Working table height |
Thanks guys for all your responses. I guess I'll still keep my 4x12' table, just
make the legs adjustable.
Thanks again
--------
Pavel
CA
Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table ....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216681#216681
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| Subject: | Re: To drag the tail or not. |
Ivor, Take a look at Alaskan bush planes - those not on floats. Tail
Draggers.
--
Leo Gates
N601Z - CH601HDS TDO
Rotax 912UL
Ivor Link wrote:
>
> *Subject:* To drag the tail or not.
>
> I'm in the early stages of scratch building an 601 XL - The intent is
> to visit bush areas to hike around the country ( I chose the 601 over
> the 701 merely from the point of view that the cruise speed provides a
> better weekend range radius). The question begs to be answered should
> I build it with the training wheel on the tail?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: To drag the tail or not. |
Yeah, but those bush planes were designed as taildraggers.? The 601XL was designed
as a tri-gear, adapted to taildragger.
Jay in Dallas
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Gates <leo@zuehlfield.com>
Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 8:51 am
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not.
?
Ivor, Take a look at Alaskan bush planes - those not on floats. Tail
Draggers.?
?
--
Leo Gates?
N601Z - CH601HDS TDO?
Rotax 912UL?
?
?
Ivor Link wrote:?
>
> *Subject:* To drag the tail or not.?
>?
> I'm in the early stages of scratch building an 601 XL - The intent is
> to visit bush areas to hike around the country ( I chose the 601 over
> the 701 merely from the point of view that the cruise speed provides a
> better weekend range radius). The question begs to be answered should
> I build it with the training wheel on the tail? ?
?
?
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ |
The NTSB haws delivered. Factual Findings.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&ntsbno=LAX07FA026&akey=1
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216715#216715
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| Subject: | N158md crash, LAX07FA026 |
Does anyone have a clue as to why this 601 crashed.? I see the factual report
is now out.
JES? N787xl (ready for FAA final).
Message 7
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| Subject: | 601XL crash Yuba City, CA |
Has anyone have a clue as to WHAT COULD HAVE STARTED the breakup of N158MD??.
I have read over the "factual report" many times, but it does not give us a clue
as to what
event could have started the breakup.?? Ref LAX07FA026
Perhaps overloading, bird strike, turbulents, abrubt control action, etc ?????????????
JES
601xl?? ready for final.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: To drag the tail or not. |
FLAME - In 1998 the Mexico factory demo HDS was a _tail dragger._ I was
told that the nose gear
was an option.
Leo Gates
jaybannist@cs.com wrote:
> Yeah, but those bush planes were designed as taildraggers. The 601XL
> was designed as a tri-gear, /adapted/ to taildragger.
>
> Jay in Dallas
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leo Gates <leo@zuehlfield.com>
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 8:51 am
> Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not.
>
> <mailto:leo@zuehlfield.com>>
>
> Ivor, Take a look at Alaskan bush planes - those not on floats. Tail
> Draggers.
>
> -- Leo Gates
Message 9
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| Subject: | NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ |
Are there seriously people out there who fly with such defects? Are they nuts?
I just don't understand the mentality of someone who choses to fly under the
following circumstances. Even 1 of these would be a RED FLAG for me.
1. The pitot-static system did not function, and the airspeed indicator did not
work;
2. The autopilot did not function; its case was broken at the pitot tube connection;
3. Upon application of brakes, the airplane pulled right, and the brakes felt "spongy."
Eventually, the right brake failed;
4. The oil pressure sending unit was cross threaded onto the oil bracket and was
leaking oil;
5. The right fuel gauge did not function;
6. A fitting associated with a fuel transducer was attached in such manner as to
vibrate;
7. The right magneto failed;
8. On the bottom of the left wing, adjacent to and trailing from rivets located
near the main landing gear, evidence of dark colored debris was present. The
presence of the debris next to the rivets was termed "smoking rivets;"
9. The engine assembly leaked oil, and the leak appeared to emanate from the starter;
10. An engine exhaust valve was burnt in one cylinder;
11. The magneto timing was improperly set;
12. A rudder cable rubbed against an aluminum fairlead on the side of the fuselage
and appeared improperly rigged;
13. Occasionally, a vibration became evident in the floor area of the cockpit;
and
14. The hub of the propeller was found cracked in September 2006, at an engine
tachometer total time of 37 hours.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R
Sent: November 28, 2008 2:00 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_
--> <donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com>
The NTSB haws delivered. Factual Findings.
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&ntsbno=LAX07FA026&akey=1
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216715#216715
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ |
At the end of the report there was reference to a "synopsis". Has anyone
seen that? Maybe the clue is there.
Dave Austin 601HDS - 912
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ |
It does not state that these problems occurred at the same, so I would make
some allowance here, but what does this say about a new, factory built
aircraft with only 98 hours on it, not to mention the other manufacturing
anomolies that were found by the FAA?
Dirk
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Best" <Patrick.Best@telus.com>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from
(11/04/2006_
> <Patrick.Best@telus.com>
>
>
> Are there seriously people out there who fly with such defects? Are they
> nuts? I just don't understand the mentality of someone who choses to fly
> under the following circumstances. Even 1 of these would be a RED FLAG
> for me.
>
>
> 1. The pitot-static system did not function, and the airspeed indicator
> did not work;
> 2. The autopilot did not function; its case was broken at the pitot tube
> connection;
> 3. Upon application of brakes, the airplane pulled right, and the brakes
> felt "spongy." Eventually, the right brake failed;
> 4. The oil pressure sending unit was cross threaded onto the oil bracket
> and was leaking oil;
> 5. The right fuel gauge did not function;
> 6. A fitting associated with a fuel transducer was attached in such manner
> as to vibrate;
> 7. The right magneto failed;
> 8. On the bottom of the left wing, adjacent to and trailing from rivets
> located near the main landing gear, evidence of dark colored debris was
> present. The presence of the debris next to the rivets was termed "smoking
> rivets;"
> 9. The engine assembly leaked oil, and the leak appeared to emanate from
> the starter;
> 10. An engine exhaust valve was burnt in one cylinder;
> 11. The magneto timing was improperly set;
> 12. A rudder cable rubbed against an aluminum fairlead on the side of the
> fuselage and appeared improperly rigged;
> 13. Occasionally, a vibration became evident in the floor area of the
> cockpit; and
> 14. The hub of the propeller was found cracked in September 2006, at an
> engine tachometer total time of 37 hours.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R
> Sent: November 28, 2008 2:00 PM
> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from
> (11/04/2006_
>
> --> <donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com>
>
> The NTSB haws delivered. Factual Findings.
>
> http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&ntsbno=LAX07FA026&akey=1
>
> --------
> Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
> donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
> Prior Lake, Minnesota
> Cessna 175 N7656M
> Cessna 140 N90123
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216715#216715
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) |
The NTSB and FAA should be applauded for such a thorough examination. Does anyone
want to discuss the report in an open forum rather than via PM or e-mail?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216751#216751
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: N158md crash, LAX07FA026 |
n787xl(at)aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone have a clue as to why this 601 crashed. I see the factual report
is now out.
>
Nope, which is probably why the NTSB doesn't yet have aprobablel cause report out.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216752#216752
Message 14
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| Subject: | NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from |
(11/04/2006_
At 15:27 28-11-08, P.B. wrote:
>Are there seriously people out there who fly with such defects? Are
>they nuts? I just don't understand the mentality of someone who
>choses to fly under the following circumstances.
[list of 1 to 14 removed]
Nobody did fly under those circumstances.
I think the point was that over time, after the aircraft was
purchased, the pilots stated they found those following issues (and
worked at solving them). That was neither the state of the aircraft
when purchased nor when it crashed.
The FAA sure went into detail; plenty of issues, major or minor, all around.
Peter Chapman
Toronto, ON
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from |
(11/04/2006)
Hi Sabrina,
I agree with you. The government and company examiners seem to have
done a great job of accumulating and reporting the facts.
I don't have enough experience to know what happens next, but I
presume the same experts that collected the facts will participate in
discussions that result in "Probable Cause" determination and report.
I would prefer to wait for that determination before getting involved
in any discussion over the facts. I don't think I read anything in
the factual stuff that should lead to any action on our
(owner/builder) part. Perhaps we could inspect our planes for lack
of rubber shock absorbers on the landing gear. Also, those with
dual controls might take a close look at the control rod
tightness. Beyond that, it seems to me most of the information is
specific to the accident airplane.
When the time does come, my preference is for email - on the
list. Email gives us a chance to review what we say before hitting
the send button. If nothing else, it gets the grammar and spelling
to a high quality level.
I think we can all wait just a little longer . . .
Paul
XL getting close
At 03:27 PM 11/28/2008, you wrote:
>The NTSB and FAA should be applauded for such a thorough
>examination. Does anyone want to discuss the report in an open forum
>rather than via PM or e-mail?
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ |
Patrick, PLEASE NOTE:The issues you have pointed out of the aircraft were there
at the time of the purchase of the aircraft and soon after. Not at the time
of the accident.
--------
Donald J. Dennnehey Jr.
donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com
Prior Lake, Minnesota
Cessna 175 N7656M
Cessna 140 N90123
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216771#216771
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