---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/28/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:16 AM - Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle) 1. 05:54 AM - Re: To drag the tail or not (P.H. Raker) 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Working table height (pavel569) 3. 06:52 AM - Re: To drag the tail or not. (Leo Gates) 4. 06:58 AM - Re: To drag the tail or not. (jaybannist@cs.com) 5. 11:00 AM - NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (PLAV8R) 6. 11:03 AM - N158md crash, LAX07FA026 (n787xl@aol.com) 7. 11:27 AM - 601XL crash Yuba City, CA (n787xl@aol.com) 8. 12:07 PM - Re: To drag the tail or not. (Leo Gates) 9. 12:27 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Patrick Best) 10. 12:53 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Dave Austin) 11. 01:26 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Dirk Zahtilla) 12. 03:28 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) (Sabrina) 13. 03:59 PM - Re: N158md crash, LAX07FA026 (Gig Giacona) 14. 04:56 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (Peter Chapman) 15. 05:10 PM - Re: Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) (Paul Mulwitz) 16. 08:11 PM - Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ (PLAV8R) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:08 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith601-List: Just 3 Days Left - Please Make Your List Contribution Today! There are only three days left until the end of this year's List Fund Raiser. Please take a minute to show your support as so many others have this year and make sure YOUR name is on the forthcoming List of Contributors 2008! Its quick and easy using the secure web site with a credit card or PayPal: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by sending your personal check to: Matronics Lists c/o Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore, CA 94551-0347 (Please write your email address on the check!) Thank you in advance for your support of these List services! Matt Dralle Matronics Email and Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:49 AM PST US From: "P.H. Raker" Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: To drag the tail or not Ivor, ---- I completely agree with all of what Larry wrote.- Another co nsideration is this.- I've flown mostly tri-gear Cessnas and Pipers, and have gotten used to flying a certain attitude in the flair for landing.- If you fly that attitude (quite nose-high) with a tail-dragger 601, you'll definitely arrive tailwheel first - generally not good.- (The three-point attitude on the tail-dragger 601 is pretty close to level.)- With the tr icycle gear and no extra wheel under the tail, you can flair the CH601 some what more aggressively-giving a lower touchdown speed and thus a shorter landing roll.- That's a big part of why Chris designed the 701 as a tri-g ear rather than a tail-dragger.- (Rear the "design college" pages about S TOL on the Zenith web site.)- It's one more thing to consider. - Phil Raker---- N556P---- HDS/Stratus---- ~85% compl eted - - - Larry McFarland wrote: - Hi Ivor, I've a great appreciation for the tail dragger as I started with PA-12 and then a Luscombe 8A. The nose gear offers a better steering option in rough conditions than the tail dragger. I know what it's like to have to gun it to break the tail loose from a bundle of grass or gravel.- The positive steering of the nose gear is much like the little red wagon for positive direction.- You can't pivot about one gear like the brake assist tail dragger, but you can plan better for maneuvering and you don't have the shock of the tailwheel hammering back thru the fuselage.- When you're parked and tied down, the aircraft is better aligned with the breezes too, so for my money, the best dollar is spent on having the extra wheel up front.- I always land on the mains, slow a lot and then let down carefully on the nose gear, so it shouldn't be a problem.- Having the rudder and the nose wheel tied together is sweet, but I don't use the rudder in normal flight. That might be different in the XL. Best regards, Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Ivor Link wrote: >- > *Subject:* To drag the tail or not. > I'm in the early stages of scratch building an 601 XL - The intent is > to visit bush areas to hike around the country ( I chose the 601 over > the 701 merely from the point of view that the cruise speed provides a > better weekend range radius). The question begs to be answered should > I build it with the training wheel on the tail?- I learnt to fly on > military taildraggers so am not intimidated - but seeing as the plane > looks just as sexy with a nose wheel, I was wondering whether there > are any stories of strength concerns with the nosewheel set up in > rough airfield conditions? > Ivor Link > South Africa =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:58 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Working table height From: "pavel569" Thanks guys for all your responses. I guess I'll still keep my 4x12' table, just make the legs adjustable. Thanks again -------- Pavel CA Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved) Stratus Subaru EA-81 Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table .... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216681#216681 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:02 AM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not. Ivor, Take a look at Alaskan bush planes - those not on floats. Tail Draggers. -- Leo Gates N601Z - CH601HDS TDO Rotax 912UL Ivor Link wrote: > > *Subject:* To drag the tail or not. > > I'm in the early stages of scratch building an 601 XL - The intent is > to visit bush areas to hike around the country ( I chose the 601 over > the 701 merely from the point of view that the cruise speed provides a > better weekend range radius). The question begs to be answered should > I build it with the training wheel on the tail? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not. From: jaybannist@cs.com Yeah, but those bush planes were designed as taildraggers.? The 601XL was designed as a tri-gear, adapted to taildragger. Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Leo Gates Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 8:51 am Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not. ? Ivor, Take a look at Alaskan bush planes - those not on floats. Tail Draggers.? ? -- Leo Gates? N601Z - CH601HDS TDO? Rotax 912UL? ? ? Ivor Link wrote:? > > *Subject:* To drag the tail or not.? >? > I'm in the early stages of scratch building an 601 XL - The intent is > to visit bush areas to hike around the country ( I chose the 601 over > the 701 merely from the point of view that the cruise speed provides a > better weekend range radius). The question begs to be answered should > I build it with the training wheel on the tail? ? ? ? ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:00:17 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ From: "PLAV8R" The NTSB haws delivered. Factual Findings. http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&ntsbno=LAX07FA026&akey=1 -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216715#216715 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:56 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: N158md crash, LAX07FA026 From: n787xl@aol.com Does anyone have a clue as to why this 601 crashed.? I see the factual report is now out. JES? N787xl (ready for FAA final). ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: 601XL crash Yuba City, CA From: n787xl@aol.com Has anyone have a clue as to WHAT COULD HAVE STARTED the breakup of N158MD??. I have read over the "factual report" many times, but it does not give us a clue as to what event could have started the breakup.?? Ref LAX07FA026 Perhaps overloading, bird strike, turbulents, abrubt control action, etc ????????????? JES 601xl?? ready for final. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:14 PM PST US From: Leo Gates Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not. FLAME - In 1998 the Mexico factory demo HDS was a _tail dragger._ I was told that the nose gear was an option. Leo Gates jaybannist@cs.com wrote: > Yeah, but those bush planes were designed as taildraggers. The 601XL > was designed as a tri-gear, /adapted/ to taildragger. > > Jay in Dallas > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Leo Gates > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Sent: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 8:51 am > Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: To drag the tail or not. > > > > > Ivor, Take a look at Alaskan bush planes - those not on floats. Tail > Draggers. > > -- Leo Gates ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:37 PM PST US From: Patrick Best Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ Are there seriously people out there who fly with such defects? Are they nuts? I just don't understand the mentality of someone who choses to fly under the following circumstances. Even 1 of these would be a RED FLAG for me. 1. The pitot-static system did not function, and the airspeed indicator did not work; 2. The autopilot did not function; its case was broken at the pitot tube connection; 3. Upon application of brakes, the airplane pulled right, and the brakes felt "spongy." Eventually, the right brake failed; 4. The oil pressure sending unit was cross threaded onto the oil bracket and was leaking oil; 5. The right fuel gauge did not function; 6. A fitting associated with a fuel transducer was attached in such manner as to vibrate; 7. The right magneto failed; 8. On the bottom of the left wing, adjacent to and trailing from rivets located near the main landing gear, evidence of dark colored debris was present. The presence of the debris next to the rivets was termed "smoking rivets;" 9. The engine assembly leaked oil, and the leak appeared to emanate from the starter; 10. An engine exhaust valve was burnt in one cylinder; 11. The magneto timing was improperly set; 12. A rudder cable rubbed against an aluminum fairlead on the side of the fuselage and appeared improperly rigged; 13. Occasionally, a vibration became evident in the floor area of the cockpit; and 14. The hub of the propeller was found cracked in September 2006, at an engine tachometer total time of 37 hours. -----Original Message----- From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R Sent: November 28, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ --> The NTSB haws delivered. Factual Findings. http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&ntsbno=LAX07FA026&akey=1 -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216715#216715 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:08 PM PST US From: "Dave Austin" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ At the end of the report there was reference to a "synopsis". Has anyone seen that? Maybe the clue is there. Dave Austin 601HDS - 912 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:14 PM PST US From: "Dirk Zahtilla" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ It does not state that these problems occurred at the same, so I would make some allowance here, but what does this say about a new, factory built aircraft with only 98 hours on it, not to mention the other manufacturing anomolies that were found by the FAA? Dirk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Best" Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ > > > > Are there seriously people out there who fly with such defects? Are they > nuts? I just don't understand the mentality of someone who choses to fly > under the following circumstances. Even 1 of these would be a RED FLAG > for me. > > > 1. The pitot-static system did not function, and the airspeed indicator > did not work; > 2. The autopilot did not function; its case was broken at the pitot tube > connection; > 3. Upon application of brakes, the airplane pulled right, and the brakes > felt "spongy." Eventually, the right brake failed; > 4. The oil pressure sending unit was cross threaded onto the oil bracket > and was leaking oil; > 5. The right fuel gauge did not function; > 6. A fitting associated with a fuel transducer was attached in such manner > as to vibrate; > 7. The right magneto failed; > 8. On the bottom of the left wing, adjacent to and trailing from rivets > located near the main landing gear, evidence of dark colored debris was > present. The presence of the debris next to the rivets was termed "smoking > rivets;" > 9. The engine assembly leaked oil, and the leak appeared to emanate from > the starter; > 10. An engine exhaust valve was burnt in one cylinder; > 11. The magneto timing was improperly set; > 12. A rudder cable rubbed against an aluminum fairlead on the side of the > fuselage and appeared improperly rigged; > 13. Occasionally, a vibration became evident in the floor area of the > cockpit; and > 14. The hub of the propeller was found cracked in September 2006, at an > engine tachometer total time of 37 hours. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PLAV8R > Sent: November 28, 2008 2:00 PM > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Subject: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from > (11/04/2006_ > > --> > > The NTSB haws delivered. Factual Findings. > > http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 061115X01677&ntsbno=LAX07FA026&akey=1 > > -------- > Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. > donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com > Prior Lake, Minnesota > Cessna 175 N7656M > Cessna 140 N90123 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216715#216715 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) From: "Sabrina" The NTSB and FAA should be applauded for such a thorough examination. Does anyone want to discuss the report in an open forum rather than via PM or e-mail? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216751#216751 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: N158md crash, LAX07FA026 From: "Gig Giacona" n787xl(at)aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have a clue as to why this 601 crashed. I see the factual report is now out. > Nope, which is probably why the NTSB doesn't yet have aprobablel cause report out. -------- W.R. "Gig" Giacona 601XL Under Construction See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216752#216752 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:43 PM PST US From: Peter Chapman Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ At 15:27 28-11-08, P.B. wrote: >Are there seriously people out there who fly with such defects? Are >they nuts? I just don't understand the mentality of someone who >choses to fly under the following circumstances. [list of 1 to 14 removed] Nobody did fly under those circumstances. I think the point was that over time, after the aircraft was purchased, the pilots stated they found those following issues (and worked at solving them). That was neither the state of the aircraft when purchased nor when it crashed. The FAA sure went into detail; plenty of issues, major or minor, all around. Peter Chapman Toronto, ON ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:33 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006) Hi Sabrina, I agree with you. The government and company examiners seem to have done a great job of accumulating and reporting the facts. I don't have enough experience to know what happens next, but I presume the same experts that collected the facts will participate in discussions that result in "Probable Cause" determination and report. I would prefer to wait for that determination before getting involved in any discussion over the facts. I don't think I read anything in the factual stuff that should lead to any action on our (owner/builder) part. Perhaps we could inspect our planes for lack of rubber shock absorbers on the landing gear. Also, those with dual controls might take a close look at the control rod tightness. Beyond that, it seems to me most of the information is specific to the accident airplane. When the time does come, my preference is for email - on the list. Email gives us a chance to review what we say before hitting the send button. If nothing else, it gets the grammar and spelling to a high quality level. I think we can all wait just a little longer . . . Paul XL getting close At 03:27 PM 11/28/2008, you wrote: >The NTSB and FAA should be applauded for such a thorough >examination. Does anyone want to discuss the report in an open forum >rather than via PM or e-mail? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:28 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB Report - - Yuba City AMD 601XL S-LSA from (11/04/2006_ From: "PLAV8R" Patrick, PLEASE NOTE:The issues you have pointed out of the aircraft were there at the time of the purchase of the aircraft and soon after. Not at the time of the accident. -------- Donald J. Dennnehey Jr. donald.j.dennehey@seagate.com Prior Lake, Minnesota Cessna 175 N7656M Cessna 140 N90123 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=216771#216771 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.