Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:13 AM - Re: labeling parts for painting (Paul Mulwitz)
2. 03:50 AM - Re: labeling parts for painting (David Downey)
3. 03:53 AM - Re: labeling parts for painting (Debo Cox)
4. 05:12 AM - Re: labeling parts for painting (Paul Mulwitz)
5. 05:35 AM - Re: labeling parts for painting (jaybannist@cs.com)
6. 08:44 AM - Re: Aileron flutter (Rexwinkle)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Aileron flutter (Paul Mulwitz)
8. 09:08 AM - Re: Re: Aileron flutter (Jim Belcher)
9. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: Aileron flutter (LarryMcFarland)
10. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Aileron flutter (Gary Gower)
11. 12:22 PM - Re: labeling parts for painting (vvkidd@mindspring.com)
12. 06:09 PM - Angle Drill Attachments (Dave VanLanen)
13. 07:10 PM - 6-B-3 Rivet spacing on bottom skin (Ron Lendon)
14. 08:28 PM - Re: Working table height (BobTezyk)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: labeling parts for painting |
Hi Kev,
You can use felt tipped "Permanent Markers" such as Sharpies to make
any marks you want on aluminum. The marks are easily removed with
lacquer thinner.
Paul
XL getting close
At 10:06 PM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
>
>Hi all , after one week now I need to start putting some primer
>paint on the rudder and stab parts for final riveting.
> My question is how do you keep track of the parts to make sure
> they go back in the right place?? I was thinking of tying small
> labels to each part but how do you do this?
> Thanks for any ideas.
>kev
>
>--------
>Austria .............
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: labeling parts for painting |
Paul you must be using epoxy primer. The Sharpie ink will wash right off al
ong with the rattle can primer! Here at Boeing we use the Sharpie to mark b
ecasue even if washed with acetone, it always leaves a faint mark that can
usually be read later...
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net> wrote:
From: Paul Mulwitz <psm@att.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: labeling parts for painting
Hi Kev,
You can use felt tipped "Permanent Markers" such as Sharpies to make
any marks you want on aluminum. The marks are easily removed with lacquer
thinner.
Paul
XL getting close
At 10:06 PM 12/1/2008, you wrote:
<kevin.dilks@liwest.at>
>
> Hi all , after one week now I need to start putting some primer paint on
the rudder and stab parts for final riveting.
> My question is how do you keep track of the parts to make sure they go
back in the right place?? I was thinking of tying small labels to each par
t but
how do you do this?
> Thanks for any ideas.
> kev
>
> --------
> Austria .............
=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: labeling parts for painting |
Hey Kev,
I made some little tags and wired them with very fine wire through an end rivet
hole. With these I could hold them up to paint, and hang them when I'm finished.
Another way would be to write names on the table (or whatever you're painting on).
Then just set each piece after painting in it's labeled spot.
Hope this helps.
Debo Cox
Nags Head, NC
Scratchbuilt XL/Corvair
www.mykitlog.com/debo
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: labeling parts for painting |
Hi David,
Actually, you nailed me good. I do indeed use epoxy primer.
However, I suggested using Sharpies for marking aluminum. I am not
using primer on internal joints, and I can't imagine using them on
painted surfaces.
Best regards,
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 03:50 AM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>Paul you must be using epoxy primer. The Sharpie ink will wash right
>off along with the rattle can primer! Here at Boeing we use the
>Sharpie to mark becasue even if washed with acetone, it always
>leaves a faint mark that can usually be read later...
>
>David L. Downey
>Harleysville (SE) PA, USA
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: labeling parts for painting |
Kevin,
I used a Sharpie and marked letters or numbers.? I would put them on the inside,
near? where things need to match up, but out of the area to be primed.? Many
times I would mark two places to be sure of the right orientation.? I still have
"A", "B", "C" and "1". "2", "3" marks in various places (not visible) on the
airframe.? If markings would be visible when complete, I used "GooGone" or
"GoofOff"? to easily remove the marks. (Those type products also work great to
remove the paper ZAC parts labels, including the glue residue.)? If the whole
part was to be painted, I did what Debo did and marked the underlying cardboard
beside the part.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: K Dilks <kevin.dilks@liwest.at>
Sent: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:06 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: labeling parts for painting
Hi all , after one week now I need to start putting some primer paint on the
rudder and stab parts for final riveting.
My question is how do you keep track of the parts to make sure they go back in
the right place?? I was thinking of tying small labels to each part but how do
you do this?
Thanks for any ideas.
kev
--------
Austria .............
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217285#217285
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
I have purchased plans for a Zodiac CH 601 XL S/N: 6-7391. I am trying to gather
information on this potential problem that I have been reading about and determine
whether or not to proceed. All of the post that I have read talk about
the cable tensions and what may happen if they are not correct. I am wondering
what the warning signs of aileron flutter are, if any. If I am flying along
are there going to be symptoms that I should recognize so that I can land the
aircraft and rectify the problem before it becomes catastrophic? Have there
been any design changes in the aircraft as a result of these accidents? As
for your other questions, yes I am trying to turn up talk. I don't really know
what you mean by opposition but I would have to guess no, and I do not work
for any newspaper, magazine, website or any other type of periodical. Any
help that I can get would be greatly appreciated.
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217353#217353
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Hi Scott,
I understand your request to be a reasonable one from your
perspective. The problem is there have been many unpleasant
discussions and indeed experiences on this issue so many list members
are overly sensitive. Let me try to give you a quick summary of the
facts as I understand them.
There have been a number of in flight structural failures on Zodiac
XLs. Oddly, I believe most of them have occurred with two people
aboard. The number of really suspicious ones is something between 3
and 5 world wide in the last few years. That accounts for perhaps
one percent of the XLs flying.
One of the suspicious accidents has just had a "Factual report" done
by the NTSB. I am anxiously awaiting the "Probable Cause" report
which should follow.
There has been a lot of attention lately to aileron cable
tension. With the latest "AD" from Europe and other notifications
from other sources, all XL flyers and builders should be well aware
of this issue. Time will tell if this makes any change in the accident rate.
My knowledge of flutter is not authoritative, but I will give you the
best answers I can. Flutter is a deadly problem in airplanes. It
happens when one of the controls starts flapping like a flag in a
high wind. In many cases this leads quickly to general structural
failure. When flutter happens the pilot knows something is going on
from both noise and vibration but he may not know what it is. The
only thing he can do is change the flight situation very quickly and
hope the flutter stops. The normal approach is to pull up to reduce
airspeed but unloading the wings by entering a steep bank might also work.
You must decide for yourself whether to go on with the XL. Some
builders have quit while others have continued on. The Zodiac XL is
an ideal design from many perspectives. The problem rate has been
high enough to be alarming but low enough that it doesn't suggest
that all XL flyers are taking an unreasonable risk.
Good luck,
Paul
XL getting close
At 08:44 AM 12/2/2008, you wrote:
>I have purchased plans for a Zodiac CH 601 XL S/N: 6-7391. I am
>trying to gather information on this potential problem that I have
>been reading about and determine whether or not to proceed. All of
>the post that I have read talk about the cable tensions and what may
>happen if they are not correct. I am wondering what the warning
>signs of aileron flutter are, if any. If I am flying along are
>there going to be symptoms that I should recognize so that I can
>land the aircraft and rectify the problem before it becomes
>catastrophic? Have there been any design changes in the aircraft as
>a result of these accidents? As for your other questions, yes I am
>trying to turn up talk. I don't really know what you mean by
>opposition but I would have to guess no, and I do not work for any
>newspaper, magazine, website or any other type of periodical. Any
>help that I can get would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Scott
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
On Tuesday 02 December 2008 10:44, Rexwinkle wrote:
> <scottrexwinkle@yahoo.com>
>
> I have purchased plans for a Zodiac CH 601 XL S/N: 6-7391. I am trying to
> gather information on this potential problem that I have been reading about
> and determine whether or not to proceed. All of the post that I have read
> talk about the cable tensions and what may happen if they are not correct.
> I am wondering what the warning signs of aileron flutter are, if any. If I
> am flying along are there going to be symptoms that I should recognize so
> that I can land the aircraft and rectify the problem before it becomes
> catastrophic? Have there been any design changes in the aircraft as a
> result of these accidents? As for your other questions, yes I am trying to
> turn up talk. I don't really know what you mean by opposition but I would
> have to guess no, and I do not work for any newspaper, magazine, website
> or any other type of periodical. Any help that I can get would be
> greatly appreciated.
Scott, this whole issue is in its infancy, as far as the Zenith 601XL is
concerned. It is not certain that aileron flutter is at fault, although some
things point that way.
For instance, there have been accident(s) in which the aileron separated from
the aircraft. That is a possible indicator of aileron flutter. A number of
the aircraft not involved in accidents have been found to have improperly
tensioned (too loose) control cables. That could be a cause of aileron
flutter.
But if there has been an official finding of aileron flutter in any of the
accidents, I'm not aware of it. The most recent preliminary finding of the
NTSB in the case of one accident (suspected by some to have been aileron
flutter) cites so many things done incorrectly by the operator, that it is
going to be difficult to fix the blame, IMHO. Sad, but that's how the report
appears to read.
Since the only firm indication of a problem that could point in this direction
has been the loose control cables, the designer has released a service
bulletin asking owners to check their cable tensions regularly, which they
should probably have been doing anyway. That's more of a precautionary move
than anything else.
Without knowing what, if anything, in the design, is causing this spate of
problems, it is probably premature to make design changes. Or too firm a set
of judgements of any type.
As for the rest of your question, the usual sign of aileron flutter is exactly
that: the aileron begins moving rapidly on its own. I would expect to sense
significant vibration in the airframe and the controls.
What do you do if this happens? An obvious thing is to slow down, if you can
do it quickly enough. Without energy being pumped into the system, it is
going to be harder to sustain the flutter. Try to get into slow, straight and
level flight, and land as soon as practical.
As for whether or not you should proceed, all I can tell you is that I'm just
starting on the kit, and I don't plan to stop based on these reports. They're
just too fragmentary and inconclusive. Like you, I would like to know the
cause of the problems, if there is a common cause, and what we can do to
prevent it.
=============================================
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
================================================
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
Scott,
Work to keep your aircraft in good shape. Inspect the normal things like
you would any other aircraft. Do keep your cables tensioned as per spec.
and
don't fly over max speeds, over-load the aircraft or pull excessive G
loads and you'll be fine. Zenith XL is a good aircraft. Do these things
and you'll
never see flutter and probably wouldn't have anyway.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
do not archive
Rexwinkle wrote:
>
> I have purchased plans for a Zodiac CH 601 XL S/N: 6-7391. I am trying to gather
information on this potential problem that I have been reading about and
determine whether or not to proceed. All of the post that I have read talk about
the cable tensions and what may happen if they are not correct. I am wondering
what the warning signs of aileron flutter are, if any. If I am flying along
are there going to be symptoms that I should recognize so that I can land
the aircraft and rectify the problem before it becomes catastrophic? Have there
been any design changes in the aircraft as a result of these accidents? As
for your other questions, yes I am trying to turn up talk. I don't really know
what you mean by opposition but I would have to guess no, and I do not work
for any newspaper, magazine, website or any other type of periodical. Any
help that I can get would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Scott
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217353#217353
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Aileron flutter |
My only advice to date:-
-
Like any other homebuilt airplane.--Build to plans,- rig correcty,-
do a good preflight every time,-fly the plane inside parameters and give
a good mantainance.-
-
Also not to forget: Once you have it glying, Check the weather, and plan ca
refully your gasoline range.
-
Enjoy your building and later your flying.
-
Saludos
Gary Gower,
Flying from Chapala, Mexico,
-
--- On Tue, 12/2/08, Rexwinkle <scottrexwinkle@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Rexwinkle <scottrexwinkle@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Aileron flutter
<scottrexwinkle@yahoo.com>
I have purchased plans for a Zodiac CH 601 XL S/N: 6-7391. I am trying to
gather information on this potential problem that I have been reading about
and
determine whether or not to proceed. All of the post that I have read talk
about the cable tensions and what may happen if they are not correct. I am
wondering what the warning signs of aileron flutter are, if any. If I am f
lying
along are there going to be symptoms that I should recognize so that I can
land
the aircraft and rectify the problem before it becomes catastrophic? Have
there
been any design changes in the aircraft as a result of these accidents? As
for
your other questions, yes I am trying to turn up talk. I don't really know
what you mean by opposition but I would have to guess no, and I do not wo
rk
for any newspaper, magazine, website or any other type of periodical. An
y
help that I can get would be greatly appreciated.
Scott
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217353#217353
=0A=0A=0A
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: labeling parts for painting |
Go to a local stationary store and purchase some tags with a short string attached.
Label and attach to each part. I didn't find it to be a problem, I only
painted the areas where the parts came together. I painted the entire aircraft
in amjor parts: fuselege, wings, cowl, etc. This seemed to work well.
Victor Kidd
N922VK
Charleston, WV, USA
-----Original Message-----
>From: K Dilks <kevin.dilks@liwest.at>
>Sent: Dec 2, 2008 1:06 AM
>To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Zenith601-List: labeling parts for painting
>
>
>Hi all , after one week now I need to start putting some primer paint on the rudder
and stab parts for final riveting.
> My question is how do you keep track of the parts to make sure they go back in
the right place?? I was thinking of tying small labels to each part but how
do you do this?
> Thanks for any ideas.
>kev
>
>--------
>Austria .............
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217285#217285
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Angle Drill Attachments |
I'm planning to purchase an angle drill attachment for getting into tight
spaces. I noticed that there are the "regular" right-angle drill
attachments, and then there are snake right-angle drill attachments
available as well. Has anyone used both a "regular" right-angle drill
attachment and a snake right-angle drill attachment, and if so, which do you
prefer?
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | 6-B-3 Rivet spacing on bottom skin |
I am scratch building and wanted to confirm my best guess on the rivet spacing
on the bottom skin. It looks like the perimeter (longeron) edges spacing could
remain a constant of 9.5mm.
The other question is are the dimensions from front to back 235, 225, 245, 270
rivet centerlines? The next dimension 560 is the cutout edge and not the rivet
centerline. The we have 400, 400, 400, 340 which appear to be on the rivet
centerlines.
I want to layout the entire bottom skin rivet holes and cutouts but am a little
unclear of the actual dimensions shown on the print. If I make all the dimensions
to the rivet hole centerlines then the 560 cutout will be more like 540,
probably not a show stopper just don't want to make a mistake.
The date on the print is 8/05
--------
Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-)
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217441#217441
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Working table height |
I built my build table with replaceable vertical posts. Both the base and the
top have sockets that will accept any length square tube I want. The plan is
to put in shorter verticals when I get to the fuselage so I don't have to work
at an uncomfortable height. I built mine out of steel but the same concept can
be executed in wood. Note the jack screws that take the table off of it's
wheels. Not only can I fine tune the height but I can level the table top with
then as well. I use an air operated impact wrench to turn a socket which fits
the nuts welded to the top of the all thread.
The finished table was primed, painted and topped with 3/4 plywood and a replaceable
Masonite skin.
Some pictures are attached.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Bob Tezyk
601XL QB
Working on the Wings.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217444#217444
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bldtable09_954.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bldtable06_167.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bldtable05_125.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/bldtable04_473.jpg
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|