Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:05 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (FlyingMonkey)
2. 12:17 AM - Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands (Thruster87)
3. 04:29 AM - Riveting rudder hinge (K Dilks)
4. 04:39 AM - Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08 (vvkidd@mindspring.com)
5. 05:06 AM - Re: Riveting rudder hinge (Ianrat)
6. 06:13 AM - Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08 (jaybannist@cs.com)
7. 07:35 AM - Re: Riveting rudder hinge (Dirk Zahtilla)
8. 09:36 AM - Re: Riveting rudder hinge (Bill Naumuk)
9. 10:17 AM - Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08 (Randy)
10. 03:45 PM - Re: Riveting rudder hinge (JohnDRead@aol.com)
11. 06:35 PM - Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...? (GLJSOJ1)
12. 06:57 PM - Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...? (PatrickW)
13. 09:05 PM - Re: Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...? (Craig Payne)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
Terry Phillips wrote:
> David
>
> Since 7/8" is thicker than 3/4", by reduced profile I didn't mean
> "thinner". By profile, I meant the shape cut from the sheet aluminum, be it
> 3/4" or 7/8" thick. Probably a poor choice of words.
>
> I don't actually know that the Grove gear is 7/8" thick. That's just the
> thickness shown on the Grove website:
>
> http://www.groveaircraft.com/landing_gear.html
>
> Similarly, I haven't measured the thickness of my ZAC gear. But 6-G-3 gives
> it as 3/4".
>
> I just checked the yield strength of the two alloys: 73,000 psi for the
> 7075 vs. 40,000 psi for the 6061. It would appear that the Grove gear is
> probably lighter only because it uses a higher strength alloy, which allows
> for a smaller profile. Since
>
> weight = area * thickness * density
>
> Assuming the density of the two alloys is the same, and given the Grove
> weight of 32.2 lbs and the ZAC weight of 43 lbs, I calculate that the area
> of the Grove gear must be ~64% of the area of the ZAC gear. But one could
> not achieve that small profile with 6061 because of its lower strength.
>
> Yeah, there are lots of ways to trim 10 or 20 lbs off the takeoff weight.
> My wife suggests I start with the 20 lbs around my waist :-)
>
> Terry
>
>
> At 08:13 PM 11/18/2008 -0800, you wrote:
>
> > If by "reduced" you mean thinner, the Grove gear is actually 1/8 inch
> > thicker (if indeed it is 7/8" vs. ZAC 3/4".
> >
> > 10 lbs is significant. Every bit adds up. The paint might weight 3 to 4
> > lb/gallon after it dries. You can save some weight by replacing the
> > electric flap motor with a pull lever. If you live in a warm climate, use
> > a smaller battery and save a few lbs. The wheels make a big difference
> > depending on what you choose etc. I'm sure there are a lot of weight
> > saving tips out there.
> >
> >
> > Terry Phillips wrote:
> > >
> > > The Grove website says that their 601XL gear is rated at 1320 lbs, and
> > > weighs 32.2 lbs, which is about 10 lbs less than the ZAC gear (per
> > 6-G-3). The Grove gear is 7/8" thick 7075-T6 while the ZAC gear is 3/4"
> > 6061-T6, so the profile of the Grove gear must be significantly reduced
> > from the ZAC profile.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Terry Phillips ZBAGer
> ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
> Corvallis MT
> 601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
> are done; working on the wings
> http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
" Assuming the density of the two alloys is the same,..."
They're not though-7075-T6 is an alloy of aluminum ( density of 2.7 grams per/cubic
centimeter) and far more dense zinc ( 7.14 grams per cubic centimeter ),
....while 6061 is an alloy of 2.7 gram /cc aluminum and lighter Silicon ( 2.329
g/cc ) and magnesium ( 1.73 g/cc ) .
Interesting discussion , though-and I don't know how far off those densities would alter your calculation, since I don't know how much of each different metal is alloyed with the aluminum -since the second digit is a zero (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/mepages/aluminfo.php) in each case.
==
Terry Phillips wrote:
> I was surprised that CZAW would
> sell their 601XL for US use at 600 kg gross with a gear rated at 550 kg.
> Apparently, they did not. The only CZAW 601XL in the US for which I had
> definite landing gear information did have the composite gear. But I just
> checked and that 601XL's gross was 1232 lbs, not 1320
As you may know, the 1232 pounds is the Canadian Advanced Ultralight maximum gross
( the spec that Chris H wrote when he was still making aircraft in Canada,
his starting place in North America) .
He wrote the Canadian aircraft regulation to meet his then new Zodiac HD , -the
HD ul model met the original( 1991 ) Canadian Advanced Ultralight spec of
1058 pounds max gross , when the xl came out it arrived it met the Canadian spec
increase to 1232 pounds.
(1232 lbs = 560 kg )
( scroll to bottom of list )
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/CCARCS/advancedullist.htm
With the standard 100-hp Rotax 912S engine a basic European Zodiac XL ULM weighs
265 kg. (585 lbs).
European ultralight aircraft must comply to :
A max gross weight of 450 kg, except in Germany and Finland it is 472.5 kg with
rescue system. ( Amphibians are 50 kg higher )
The max empty weight in UK it is 265 kg , in Scandinavian countries it is 275
kg , in Germany it's 275 kg plus rescue system.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217884#217884
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| Subject: | Re: All 601XL grounded in Netherlands |
LSA aircraft in Australia can go to 600kg MTOW which includes the 601xl
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217886#217886
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| Subject: | Riveting rudder hinge |
Hi all ,
just riveting the rudder together and noticed I cant get the rivet gun on the
rivets for the upper hinge brackets, also I see people leave them off until later
but I cant find any reference to this.
How do you rivet these 2 parts on? plane says A5 rivets
Regards
Kev
--------
Austria .............
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217890#217890
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| Subject: | Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08 |
Patrick:
Your thinking about the hole in the bolt and nut is sound to a point. However,
the cotter pin in the bolt/nut assembly provides the necessary 'filler' to replace
most of the nuts strength. The castle nut is there for a purpose, it is
less prone to fail as a result of vibration. The gear attachment bolt difinitey
receive lots of vibration. I would NOT use a fiber nut for the gear assembly.
The castle nut is there for a purpose to prevent failure due to vibration.
I drilled the gear attachment bolts and used castle nuts and the correct sized
cotter pin. I called Zenith about the torque on the 1/2" nuts since it was metal
to rubber, the answer was, we just tighten them up snug. Not much of an answer,
so I looked up the torque value for the bolt/nut assembly (1/2" coarse
thread bolt @ 110 ft lbs dry) and used that plus a bit of 'shady tree garage'
logic, compress the rubber about 1/3 its thickness. By the way I did not use
the supplied split heater hose in my assembly. I visited a local machine amd
manufacturing shop for assistance. They supplied me with a replacement product
that was much better than the heater hose, it was flat neoprene.
Hope this helps.
Victor Kidd
N922VK e/w 300A Jabiru
Flying when the Wx allows. Not too much lately though.
Charleston, WV CRW
>
>
>Time: 05:47:58 PM PST US
>Subject: Zenith601-List: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...?
>From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Does anyone know the correct torque value for the AN365-820 fiber lock nuts on
>the 1/2" Grade 8 bolts on the Main Gear Attachment bracket 6B11-4...?
>
>AC43.13-1B gives values on page 7-9, however I believe these values are for "metal
>against metal". In the case of the Main Gear Attachment, we have "Metal against
>Rubber".
>
>What have other builders done...?
>
>- Pat
>
>
>PS - The drawings specify that these nuts can be used, and the farm boy in me
thinks
>that the fiber nut is better than the castle nut because a bolt WITHOUT
>a hole in it is going to be stronger than a bolt WITH a hole in it. But the torque
>question is still valid in any case.
>
>--------
>Patrick
>601XL/Corvair
>N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217855#217855
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting rudder hinge |
I have used small bolts instead of the outer two rivets. Some plans were have a
problem with the hinge becoming loose over time. If you can not get the rivet
gun onto the rivet you can get a puller that has the sides ground back. Most
tool suppliers will have these. Yes i did wait until i was able to fit the rudder
to the fuselage before fitting the top hinges.
Hope this helps you out
Ianrat
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217895#217895
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08 |
Victor,
I disagree with your statement that "the cotter pin in the bolt/nut assembly provides
the necessary 'filler' to replace most of the nuts strength."? I think
you meant to say "the bolt's strenght", but it definitely does not.? The hole
reduces the sectional area of the bolt and the only way to "fill" it would by
welding. However, the hole is beyond the area where the strength is required,
so it does not effect the clamping strength of the bolt.
Another way to secure the nut would be to install a jamb nut. That one could be
torqued to the proper amount for the bolt, without regard for the torque of the
primary nut.
Jay in Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: vvkidd@mindspring.com
Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 6:39 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08
Patrick:
Your thinking about the hole in the bolt and nut is sound to a point. However,
the cotter pin in the bolt/nut assembly provides the necessary 'filler' to
replace most of the nuts strength. The castle nut is there for a purpose, it is
less prone to fail as a result of vibration. The gear attachment bolt difinitey
receive lots of vibration. I would NOT use a fiber nut for the gear assembly.
The castle nut is there for a purpose to prevent failure due to vibration.
I drilled the gear attachment bolts and used castle nuts and the correct sized
cotter pin. I called Zenith about the torque on the 1/2" nuts since it was
metal to rubber, the answer was, we just tighten them up snug. Not much of an
answer, so I looked up the torque value for the bolt/nut assembly (1/2" coarse
thread bolt @ 110 ft lbs dry) and used that plus a bit of 'shady tree garage'
logic, compress the rubber about 1/3 its thickness. By the way I did not use
the supplied split heater hose in my assembly. I visited a local machine amd
manufacturing shop for assistance. They supplied me with a replacement product
that was much better than the heater hose, it was flat neoprene.
Hope this helps.
Victor Kidd
N922VK e/w 300A Jabiru
Flying when the Wx allows. Not too much lately though.
Charleston, WV CRW
>
>
>Time: 05:47:58 PM PST US
>Subject: Zenith601-List: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...?
>From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Does anyone know the correct torque value for the AN365-820 fiber lock nuts on
>the 1/2" Grade 8 bolts on the Main Gear Attachment bracket 6B11-4...?
>
>AC43.13-1B gives values on page 7-9, however I believe these values are for
"metal
>against metal". In the case of the Main Gear Attachment, we have "Metal
against
>Rubber".
>
>What have other builders done...?
>
>- Pat
>
>
>PS - The drawings specify that these nuts can be used, and the farm boy in me
thinks
>that the fiber nut is better than the castle nut because a bolt WITHOUT
>a hole in it is going to be stronger than a bolt WITH a hole in it. But the
torque
>question is still valid in any case.
>
>--------
>Patrick
>601XL/Corvair
>N63PZ (reserved)
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217855#217855
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting rudder hinge |
look here and see the video "pull riveting in tight places" it is quite
simple. http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html?videoId=1858922506
Dirk
> Hi all ,
> just riveting the rudder together and noticed I cant get the rivet gun on
> the rivets for the upper hinge brackets, also I see people leave them off
> until later but I cant find any reference to this.
> How do you rivet these 2 parts on? plane says A5 rivets
>
> Regards
> Kev
>
> --------
> Austria .............
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217890#217890
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting rudder hinge |
Kev-
The reason you leave one set of hinges off is to make it easier to line
them up with the fuse. Being as I'm the valedictorian of the school of hard
knocks, take it from me-I highly recommend waiting.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dirk Zahtilla" <ideaz1@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Riveting rudder hinge
> <ideaz1@sbcglobal.net>
>
> look here and see the video "pull riveting in tight places" it is quite
> simple. http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html?videoId=1858922506
>
> Dirk
>
>> Hi all ,
>> just riveting the rudder together and noticed I cant get the rivet gun on
>> the rivets for the upper hinge brackets, also I see people leave them off
>> until later but I cant find any reference to this.
>> How do you rivet these 2 parts on? plane says A5 rivets
>>
>> Regards
>> Kev
>>
>> --------
>> Austria .............
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217890#217890
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08 |
Fiber nuts work fine in that application. I've had them on for over 230
hours and they have NOT vibrated loose.
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: <vvkidd@mindspring.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 6:39 AM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Zenith601-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/05/08
>
>
> Patrick:
>
> Your thinking about the hole in the bolt and nut is sound to a point.
> However, the cotter pin in the bolt/nut assembly provides the necessary
> 'filler' to replace most of the nuts strength. The castle nut is there
> for a purpose, it is less prone to fail as a result of vibration. The
> gear attachment bolt difinitey receive lots of vibration. I would NOT use
> a fiber nut for the gear assembly. The castle nut is there for a purpose
> to prevent failure due to vibration.
>
> I drilled the gear attachment bolts and used castle nuts and the correct
> sized cotter pin. I called Zenith about the torque on the 1/2" nuts since
> it was metal to rubber, the answer was, we just tighten them up snug. Not
> much of an answer, so I looked up the torque value for the bolt/nut
> assembly (1/2" coarse thread bolt @ 110 ft lbs dry) and used that plus a
> bit of 'shady tree garage' logic, compress the rubber about 1/3 its
> thickness. By the way I did not use the supplied split heater hose in my
> assembly. I visited a local machine amd manufacturing shop for
> assistance. They supplied me with a replacement product that was much
> better than the heater hose, it was flat neoprene.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Victor Kidd
> N922VK e/w 300A Jabiru
> Flying when the Wx allows. Not too much lately though.
> Charleston, WV CRW
>
>
>>
>>
>>Time: 05:47:58 PM PST US
>>Subject: Zenith601-List: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...?
>>From: "PatrickW" <pwhoyt@yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>Does anyone know the correct torque value for the AN365-820 fiber lock
>>nuts on
>>the 1/2" Grade 8 bolts on the Main Gear Attachment bracket 6B11-4...?
>>
>>AC43.13-1B gives values on page 7-9, however I believe these values are
>>for "metal
>>against metal". In the case of the Main Gear Attachment, we have "Metal
>>against
>>Rubber".
>>
>>What have other builders done...?
>>
>>- Pat
>>
>>
>>PS - The drawings specify that these nuts can be used, and the farm boy in
>>me thinks
>>that the fiber nut is better than the castle nut because a bolt WITHOUT
>>a hole in it is going to be stronger than a bolt WITH a hole in it. But
>>the torque
>>question is still valid in any case.
>>
>>--------
>>Patrick
>>601XL/Corvair
>>N63PZ (reserved)
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217855#217855
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Riveting rudder hinge |
Hi Kevin;
I found that with many of the rivets that are close in I had to
modify a hand riveter. I did this by grinding off the sides of the rivetter
so I could get in close. The rudder is one of many places where the air
riveter cannot get in close enough. I can send a picture if this would help
John Read
CH701 in Colorado
Phone: 303-648-3261
Fax: 303-648-3262
Cell: 719-494-4567
In a message dated 12/6/2008 5:29:37 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
kevin.dilks@liwest.at writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "K Dilks" <kevin.dilks@liwest.at>
Hi all ,
just riveting the rudder together and noticed I cant get the rivet gun on
the rivets for the upper hinge brackets, also I see people leave them off until
later but I cant find any reference to this.
How do you rivet these 2 parts on? plane says A5 rivets
Regards
Kev
--------
Austria .............
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217890#217890
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| Subject: | Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...? |
I did mine at 35 ft# and used the castle nuts. It did distort the extrusion some,
but they are tight. There have been other post on this subject so might want
to check the archives also.
--------
601XL N676L reserved
ALMOST DONE
CHESAPEAKE VA
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217978#217978
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| Subject: | Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...? |
There was some discussion on this topic here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=52550&highlight=6b114
Since fiber lock nuts (as well as castle nuts) are specified on the plans, that's
what I'll go with, along with "witness paint" to aid in future preflight inspections.
I torqued them up to 35 ft-lbs for now. It felt like more would be too much.
My original target torque was around 48 ft-lbs based on the average AC43 value
converted to ft-lbs, assuming I read the chart correctly and assuming that it's
applicable to Grade 8 bolts, which it may not be.
Today my XL is standing on it's own gear for the first time. :)
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217981#217981
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| Subject: | Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...? |
Here is a quote from a post by Jeff (Afterfxllc(at)aol.com) from Dec 3rd,
2007 (message #51120) in a thread titled "XL Landing gear nuts Torque":
"Talked to zenith today and asked if we torque the landing gear nut to the
specs or just snug and they said it can be torque to specs but good and
tight is fine also. I told them I would tighten mine down until the angle
just started to bend and give them the torque and they said they would post
it in the updates. It's funny how so many have been built and the question
has never come"
-- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PatrickW
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 7:57 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Main Gear Attachment Nut Torque...?
There was some discussion on this topic here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=52550&highlight=6b114
Since fiber lock nuts (as well as castle nuts) are specified on the plans,
that's what I'll go with, along with "witness paint" to aid in future
preflight inspections.
I torqued them up to 35 ft-lbs for now. It felt like more would be too
much. My original target torque was around 48 ft-lbs based on the average
AC43 value converted to ft-lbs, assuming I read the chart correctly and
assuming that it's applicable to Grade 8 bolts, which it may not be.
Today my XL is standing on it's own gear for the first time. :)
- Pat
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=217981#217981
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