---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/16/08: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:55 AM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (ashontz) 2. 06:59 AM - Bubble Canopy full assembly weight... (ashontz) 3. 08:36 AM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Sabrina) 4. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (David Downey) 5. 11:31 AM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Sabrina) 6. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 7. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (John Davis) 8. 02:02 PM - Re: Bubble Canopy full assembly weight... (GLJSOJ1) 9. 02:08 PM - Re: Bubble Canopy full assembly weight... (ashontz) 10. 04:11 PM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (vvkidd@mindspring.com) 11. 04:36 PM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Sabrina) 12. 04:58 PM - Re: Attention Corvair Builders (FlyingMonkey) 13. 05:11 PM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Tim Juhl) 14. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (David Downey) 15. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Ronald Steele) 16. 06:37 PM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Sabrina) 17. 06:40 PM - Supplemental aileron gussets (Jon Croke) 18. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Ronald Steele) 19. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (David Downey) 20. 08:24 PM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Sabrina) 21. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Ronald Steele) 22. 10:31 PM - Re: Supplemental aileron gussets (Terry Turnquist) 23. 10:37 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Terry Turnquist) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:48 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "ashontz" Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway? n85ae wrote: > Well, my test was VERY unscientific, however ... > > You are right, it was essentially in tension. But, the heads tear off so > easily, I was very unhappy. I repeated my simple test with A5's, and the > ball end pulls through, but the heads do not pop off. This to my mind > is ok. The rivets themself don't just break in half. > > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Jeyoung65(at)aol.com wrote: > > Jeff, when you tugged on the strip, what angle were your tug with the clamped piece? Or, was the rivet in shear or tension. Would expect the rivet heads to pop off if your tug was 90 degrees to the clamped part but if it was 180 degrees then there is a problem. Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219584#219584 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:24 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Bubble Canopy full assembly weight... From: "ashontz" Anyone ever weigh the full canopy? Bubble, hinges, pressure shocks, latches, trim, etc.... Just curious how much the entire thing weighs. Thanks -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219585#219585 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:23 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "Sabrina" "Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?" Ashontz... A4 for the aft portion of the aileron piano hinge.... A4 are rated at 165/230 pounds, A5 are rated at 255/375 pounds, AS5 are rated at 750/1000 pounds. Correct? When the force is upward tension at one end, as opposed to shear across all the rivets in a row, does the full row of rivets give much support to the end rivet being tensioned, or once a tension of 1X to 2X of an A4 is reached and maintained, the connection will unzip? (Versus a shearing force across a row where each rivet adds strength to the connection and the force would have to be many times the shear limit of any one rivet for the connection to fail.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219607#219607 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:43 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip unzip - a classic failure mode once the initial fastener fails and the stru cture goes into buckling. David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip "Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?" Ashontz... A4 for the aft portion of the aileron piano hinge.... A4 are rated at 165/230 pounds, A5 are rated at 255/375 pounds, AS5 are rated at 750/1000 pounds. Correct? When the force is upward tension at one end, as opposed to shear across all the rivets in a row, does the full row of rivets give much support to the end r ivet being tensioned, or once a tension of 1X to 2X of an A4 is reached and maintained, the connection will unzip? (Versus a shearing force across a r ow where each rivet adds strength to the connection and the force would have t o be many times the shear limit of any one rivet for the connection to fail.) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219607#219607 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:35 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "Sabrina" My test pilot noticed flexing at the inboard portion of the ailerons where Alex's kink is. We did not know of Alex's kink at the time and did not think too much of it. This was on the maiden flight, 11 months and 1 day ago. However, once this video was reviewed by my IA before the next test flight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-ZcZPP18uk My IA noted the movement as well, and also noted the stress created at the point the rear spar connects the inboard-forward corner of the aileron. Zenith indicated we were the first to raise the issue. Zenith was informed that I had designed gussets and that they were or were about to be installed. Zenith proceeded to link to my videos from their web page. No mention was made of the internal 650 gussets to me at AirVenture and the exact issue was not raised again until a former European Zenith distributor raised a similar issue (which I can't talk about) recently in an e-mail, a person privy to the letter recently sent to CH by the European authorities. I have not seen the letter (some have asked off line.) The flexing, which was most pronounced on the down aileron, has not re-occured since installing the four gussets. Any opinions about the Hoerner wing tip sending air down or into the channel created by the aileron/spar gap, any opinions on whether the unsealed aileron hinge would amplify this effect, if any? http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-design.html The Germans did not impose a 111 MPH Vne for no reason at all, the left lane of the Autobahn would be quicker... Does anyone remember if the Factory Demonstrator has PH ailerons or not? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219647#219647 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:01 AM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip No sure about other 601 plans but the 601HD 6-V-10 drawing dated 06-04 has "AN Rivet pitch 40" in the view for the Piano Hinged Aileron Option and for the hingless aileron "A4 rivets pitch 40 last I/B - O/B rivet use A5". It does not say what size AN rivets to use on the hinged system. Jerry of Ga In a message dated 12/16/2008 11:37:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, chicago2paris@msn.com writes: --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Sabrina" "Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?" Ashontz... A4 for the aft portion of the aileron piano hinge.... A4 are rated at 165/230 pounds, A5 are rated at 255/375 pounds, AS5 are rated at 750/1000 pounds. Correct? When the force is upward tension at one end, as opposed to shear across all the rivets in a row, does the full row of rivets give much support to the end rivet being tensioned, or once a tension of 1X to 2X of an A4 is reached and maintained, the connection will unzip? (Versus a shearing force across a row where each rivet adds strength to the connection and the force would have to be many times the shear limit of any one rivet for the connection to fail.) .. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:07 AM PST US From: John Davis Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Hi Sabrina, I just flew N130AW an AMD 601XL at The Flight school of Gwinnet (LZU) and it had the same kink in the ailerons. According to the mechanic they had showed photo's of the issue to the factory and they said it was nothing to worry about. That plane has a bit less than 200 hrs and has been in service for less than 2 yrs. So it seems like it may not be such an uncommon situation as Zenith led you to believe. Can you post a picture or drawing of the gussets you installed ? John Davis N601JD 601XL - Jab 3300 Finally ready for first flight Sabrina wrote: > > My test pilot noticed flexing at the inboard portion of the ailerons where Alex's kink is. We did not know of Alex's kink at the time and did not think too much of it. This was on the maiden flight, 11 months and 1 day ago. However, once this video was reviewed by my IA before the next test flight: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-ZcZPP18uk > > My IA noted the movement as well, and also noted the stress created at the point the rear spar connects the inboard-forward corner of the aileron. > > Zenith indicated we were the first to raise the issue. Zenith was informed that I had designed gussets and that they were or were about to be installed. Zenith proceeded to link to my videos from their web page. No mention was made of the internal 650 gussets to me at AirVenture and the exact issue was not raised again until a former European Zenith distributor raised a similar issue (which I can't talk about) recently in an e-mail, a person privy to the letter recently sent to CH by the European authorities. I have not seen the letter (some have asked off line.) > > The flexing, which was most pronounced on the down aileron, has not re-occured since installing the four gussets. > > Any opinions about the Hoerner wing tip sending air down or into the channel created by the aileron/spar gap, any opinions on whether the unsealed aileron hinge would amplify this effect, if any? http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-design.html > > The Germans did not impose a 111 MPH Vne for no reason at all, the left lane of the Autobahn would be quicker... > > Does anyone remember if the Factory Demonstrator has PH ailerons or not? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219647#219647 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:02:51 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Bubble Canopy full assembly weight... From: "GLJSOJ1" I have no idea, but I used a 15# figure to get a rough W&B so I could get some idea where to put my battery. As soon as I get my engine checked out and it passes compression test I'll be at the airport and see how close I was. -------- 601XL N676L reserved ALMOST DONE CHESAPEAKE VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219671#219671 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:48 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Bubble Canopy full assembly weight... From: "ashontz" That's a reasonable guess. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little more, like around 20 - 22 pounds. GLJSOJ1 wrote: > I have no idea, but I used a 15# figure to get a rough W&B so I could get some idea where to put my battery. As soon as I get my engine checked out and it passes compression test I'll be at the airport and see how close I was. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219673#219673 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:50 PM PST US From: vvkidd@mindspring.com Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip I must have missed the location for the gussets. Would someone please help me out and give me some info on there design and location. Drawings? Victor Kidd N922VK Would be fying except for the present WV weather. -----Original Message----- >From: Sabrina >Sent: Dec 16, 2008 2:31 PM >To: zenith601-list@matronics.com >Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip > > >My test pilot noticed flexing at the inboard portion of the ailerons where Alex's kink is. We did not know of Alex's kink at the time and did not think too much of it. This was on the maiden flight, 11 months and 1 day ago. However, once this video was reviewed by my IA before the next test flight: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-ZcZPP18uk > >My IA noted the movement as well, and also noted the stress created at the point the rear spar connects the inboard-forward corner of the aileron. > >Zenith indicated we were the first to raise the issue. Zenith was informed that I had designed gussets and that they were or were about to be installed. Zenith proceeded to link to my videos from their web page. No mention was made of the internal 650 gussets to me at AirVenture and the exact issue was not raised again until a former European Zenith distributor raised a similar issue (which I can't talk about) recently in an e-mail, a person privy to the letter recently sent to CH by the European authorities. I have not seen the letter (some have asked off line.) > >The flexing, which was most pronounced on the down aileron, has not re-occured since installing the four gussets. > >Any opinions about the Hoerner wing tip sending air down or into the channel created by the aileron/spar gap, any opinions on whether the unsealed aileron hinge would amplify this effect, if any? http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-design.html > >The Germans did not impose a 111 MPH Vne for no reason at all, the left lane of the Autobahn would be quicker... > >Does anyone remember if the Factory Demonstrator has PH ailerons or not? > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219647#219647 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:26 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "Sabrina" Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219708#219708 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Attention Corvair Builders From: "FlyingMonkey" Brady wrote: > To Whom it may concern: > > We have updated our website, www.magnificentmachine.com, with some technical articles that are aimed at ..... I got a page load error on clicking your link-maybe it is the comma on the end of the url. I think this is the site: http://www.magnificentmachine.com/ Thanks for posting that info. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219710#219710 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:00 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "Tim Juhl" Sabrina, The red & white factory demonstrator had hingeless ailerons. I have been communicating with a friend who is going the 650 route and he advised me that the gussets are 0.025 aluminum and slipped between the skin and the rib. They are installed using A4 rivets. Stated reason is to prevent damage due to flapping in the wind when the aircraft is parked outside. Caleb commented it was more of a problem with piano hinge ailerons inasmuch that the hingeless type offer more resistance to deflection. Tim -------- ______________ CFII Champ L16A flying Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A Working on fuselage Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219711#219711 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:11 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered builder) the 6 50 upgrade. (whine, sniffle) David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219708#219708 =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:31 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Wow, did you to something to make them mad? Mine just came via UPS. You should be able to get them if ordered before the first of the year. The gussets are about 100mm - 110mm on a side. They are on the first and second aileron ribs. A right triangle on the first and an isosceles with the tip cut off on the second. There have been a lot of queries about the anti-oil canning angles. They are in line with the back of the wing locker and run parallel with the main spar. Ron On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:59 PM, David Downey wrote: > I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered > builder) the 650 upgrade. (whine, sniffle) > > David L. Downey > Harleysville (SE) PA, USA > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina wrote: > From: Sabrina > Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:36 PM > > > > Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? > > > Read this topic online > > > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "Sabrina" Is the main spar set the same as the 601XL? In other words, do they just twist the wing to bring it down two inches in the rear, or have they adjusted the main spar and side skin cut outs too? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219722#219722 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:39 PM PST US From: "Jon Croke" Subject: Zenith601-List: Supplemental aileron gussets The drawings for the supplemental aileron gussets are available for viewing at www.zenair.org These will also be printed in the new newsletter. Looking for a few more good videos of building/flying for the next newsletter DVD.... Let me know what you liked/disliked in the last one! Thanks to all contributors that made that last one really fun to watch! Jon editor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabrina" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:36 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip > > Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:33 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip I haven't looked at the existing plans (not that far along) but angle of the front spare is 83 degrees (where 0 is horizontal and 90 is vertical), leaning forward. This is measured where the top longeron is level. Without really studying them, I think the new plans are easier to read. Looks to me like there are more drawings and they are better annotated. This alone make the upgrade cost worth it to me. Ron On Dec 16, 2008, at 9:36 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > > Is the main spar set the same as the 601XL? > > In other words, do they just twist the wing to bring it down two > inches in the rear, or have they adjusted the main spar and side > skin cut outs too? > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219722#219722 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:21 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip nope. they have simply taken the position that only the original buyer can get them as an upgrade. Since I am the registered owner/builder, now even t he original buyer cannot buy them as a discount. Since the wing is still ba sically the same as before, other than the incidence increase, I am not wil ling to cfough up the extra hundreds of dollars to get the 650 drawings. What really bugs me is that since you have to surrender your existing 601 s erial number to trade up, they are still only committed to support the cons truction of one plane - and a supposedly better aircraft at that... David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Ronald Steele wrote: From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Wow, did you to something to make them mad? -Mine just came via UPS. -Y ou should be able to get them if ordered before the first of the year. The gussets are about 100mm -- 110mm on a side. -They are on the first and second aileron ribs. -A right triangle on the first and an-isoscele s-with the tip cut off on the second. There have been a lot of queries about the anti-oil canning angles. -They are in line with the back of the wing locker and run parallel with the mai n spar. Ron On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:59 PM, David Downey wrote: I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered builder) the 6 50 upgrade. (whine, sniffle) David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina wrote: From: Sabrina Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? Read this topic online 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com /contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:44 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip From: "Sabrina" December 2008: "these gussets are recommended for the Zodiac CH601XL..." Thank you Zenith, thank you Jon. I still think an AS5 rivet or two on the inboard corner is not a bad idea if Zenith's "presumption" is incorrect. Did anyone notice that the diagram is a hingless aileron not a PH version, yet the paragraph refers to a hinged aileron. Is there a message here? Does anyone with 650 plans have a PH version of this diagram? http://www.zenair.org/nuke/MyDownloads/AileronLocks.pdf Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219737#219737 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:41 PM PST US From: Ronald Steele Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Ah, I see. This is policy I don't understand. I suppose they must have there reasons. You can still change the canopy. My real motivation was head room, and it wasn't really clear to me that all the addition headroom in the 650 was due to the canopy change. I'd be glad to answer any questions I can wrt the 650. As I said in another post, I think the new plans are a bit more clear. Ron On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:21 PM, David Downey wrote: > nope. they have simply taken the position that only the original > buyer can get them as an upgrade. Since I am the registered owner/ > builder, now even the original buyer cannot buy them as a discount. > Since the wing is still basically the same as before, other than the > incidence increase, I am not willing to cfough up the extra hundreds > of dollars to get the 650 drawings. > > What really bugs me is that since you have to surrender your > existing 601 serial number to trade up, they are still only > committed to support the construction of one plane - and a > supposedly better aircraft at that... > > David L. Downey > Harleysville (SE) PA, USA > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Ronald Steele wrote: > From: Ronald Steele > Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip > To: zenith601-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:22 PM > > Wow, did you to something to make them mad? Mine just came via > UPS. You should be able to get them if ordered before the first of > the year. > > The gussets are about 100mm - 110mm on a side. They are on the > first and second aileron ribs. A right triangle on the first and an > isosceles with the tip cut off on the second. > > There have been a lot of queries about the anti-oil canning angles. > They are in line with the back of the wing locker and run parallel > with the main spar. > > Ron > > > On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:59 PM, David Downey wrote: > >> I would have but the factory won't sell me (their registered >> builder) the 650 upgrade. (whine, sniffle) >> >> David L. Downey >> Harleysville (SE) PA, USA >> >> >> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Sabrina wrote: >> From: Sabrina >> Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip >> To: zenith601-list@matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 7:36 PM >> >> >> >> Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online >> >> >> >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> ====================== >> href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> ====================== >> href="3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> ====================== >> href="3D"http://forums.matronics.com"">http://forums.matronics.com >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> = >> 3D >> ====================== > > > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== > _- > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > = > 3D > ====================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:16 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Supplemental aileron gussets Thanks Jon, getting that info was harder n' Chinese arithmetic :} Do not Archive The drawings for the supplemental aileron gussets are available for viewing at www.zenair.org These will also be printed in the new newsletter. Looking for a few more good videos of building/flying for the next newsletter DVD.... Let me know what you liked/disliked in the last one! Thanks to all contributors that made that last one really fun to watch! Jon editor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sabrina" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:36 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip > > Does anyone have the 650 plans with the gussets shown? > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:06 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip I guess the top skin is still a "Hinge" Do not archive Terry Turnquist 601XL-Plans St. Peters MO December 2008: "these gussets are recommended for the Zodiac CH601XL..." Thank you Zenith, thank you Jon. I still think an AS5 rivet or two on the inboard corner is not a bad idea if Zenith's "presumption" is incorrect. Did anyone notice that the diagram is a hingless aileron not a PH version, yet the paragraph refers to a hinged aileron. 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