Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:10 AM - More on the XL grounding (aerobat)
2. 04:54 AM - Re: More on the XL grounding (Paul Mulwitz)
3. 06:06 AM - Re: More on the XL grounding (Gig Giacona)
4. 06:40 AM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (jaybannist@cs.com)
5. 08:14 AM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Jay Maynard)
6. 08:25 AM - Re: More on the XL grounding (rans6andrew)
7. 10:36 AM - Re: More on the XL grounding (GBzodiflyer)
8. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Paul Mulwitz)
9. 11:29 AM - Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (n85ae)
10. 12:15 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding ()
11. 12:17 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (dougsire)
12. 12:44 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (pavel569)
13. 12:51 PM - 601XL Rudder (ella)
14. 01:09 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
15. 02:59 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (Gig Giacona)
16. 03:00 PM - Re: 601XL Rudder (Gig Giacona)
17. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Jay Maynard)
18. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Jay Maynard)
19. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Elden Jacobson)
20. 03:34 PM - XL wing concerns (europa2)
21. 03:38 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Bryan Martin)
22. 03:47 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (Paul Mulwitz)
23. 04:05 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (aerobat)
24. 04:42 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Gary Gower)
25. 04:53 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Ronald Steele)
26. 05:04 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (Gig Giacona)
27. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Craig Payne)
28. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (David Downey)
29. 06:02 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Jay Maynard)
30. 08:01 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (jmaynard)
31. 08:16 PM - Re: Re: More on the XL grounding (Terry Phillips)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | More on the XL grounding |
Since the grounding the UK have had their stress engineers and sophisticated computer
software working very hard to address the situation. They have come across
areas of concern that have been sent to the designer but as yet no reply is
forthcoming.
Is this because he does not want to acknowledge any potential problem for fear
of being sued over several wing failures ?
If there is a problem the sooner this is rectified the better - before another
aeroplane for whatever causes has the wings drop off.
Rumour has it that if the designer does not respond to the LAAs very fair questions
then in consultation with the FAA and European authorities the XL will be
limited worldwide to the German limitations of Max 450kg ( 990lb ) VNE 97kts
and no baggage.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220499#220499
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
I have a few questions for you "Aerobat".
1. Who are you, and where are you located? Apparently you are
ashamed of your name or just want to fool everyone without taking any
responsibility for your stupid comments. I presume you must be in
some Socialist or Communist country. Also, I would guess you are not
yet of legal age and probably don't own a Zodiac or any other airplane.
2. Where did you get the childish notion that the whole world could
agree on anything? In particular, what gives you the idea that a
plane can be grounded or limited to the same limits in every country
of the world?
3. Why do you continue to post such outrageous comments on the
Zodiac list? Surely, it is not because you think the list members
would be happy to hear your uninformed opinions.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 03:09 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>Since the grounding the UK have had their stress engineers and
>sophisticated computer software working very hard to address the
>situation. They have come across areas of concern that have been
>sent to the designer but as yet no reply is forthcoming.
>Is this because he does not want to acknowledge any potential
>problem for fear of being sued over several wing failures ?
>If there is a problem the sooner this is rectified the better -
>before another aeroplane for whatever causes has the wings drop off.
>Rumour has it that if the designer does not respond to the LAAs very
>fair questions then in consultation with the FAA and European
>authorities the XL will be limited worldwide to the German
>limitations of Max 450kg ( 990lb ) VNE 97kts and no baggage.
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the Matronics database.
And guess what every single post has been about.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220509#220509
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Gig - Are you saying that Aerobat is really a Dingbat?? (Dingbats do use "rumor
has it" as an authentic information source)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 8:05 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the Matronics
database. And guess what every single post has been about.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220509#220509
________________________________________________________________________
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 06:05:59AM -0800, Gig Giacona wrote:
> Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the Matronics
> database. And guess what every single post has been about.
Indeed. His posts have the distinct odor of troll about them. Unless and
until he provides some facts that demonstrate he's actually got a real
interest in the Zodiac as an owner or pilot, I intend to ignore him, and
suggest the rest of us do the same. We need facts, not uninformed
speculation and rumor.
If the weather ever clears in Minnesota, I'm going to go flying in my XLi,
within the limits as set by the designer and factory, not as rumored by
someone who shows no evidence that he's not, say, a competitor trying to
destroy the Zodiac's reputation so he can sell more airplanes.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
aerobat is the only poster in this thread whose location is in the text below his
name on the left side of the page. It says UK. Sounds good enough for me.
Just to avoid confusion I am Andrew Cattell, I am located in the UK. I am building
a 601UL. I have been told by the LAA (email end of November) that they don't
have any concerns over the the UL and HD varients. They would not be drawn
on what they might have found on the XL as it is not an issue for my build.
Reading this thread, and the others related to apparent XL wing failures, together
with what they have told me directly, I would think that the LAA has found
something with the XL wing but are not releasing the information to the world
at large until the designer has had time to comment. This would seem to be a
reasonable courtesy. It is for this reason that the "rumour has it" is employed.
I may be wrong, of course, but that's how it looks from my position.
Andrew.
--------
A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL.
Still flying Rans S6 with 503.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220534#220534
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
I have also heard this , but have not listed it because clearly all we get back
for our concerns , is name calling , what is wrong with you people over there
, we all have flying xl s, that we built .
when u guys get grounded or have a restriction slapped on your aircraft maybe
you will see it from our point of view
I thought aviators and builders tended to stick together.
there are no bad remarks from competitors here . if you are still building a fix
is not to much of an issue , If your done and flying , or not at the moment
, it could be major work to tear it down again .
grow up the name callers .
Gary
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220565#220565
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Hi Gary,
I appreciate your comments and concerns.
For those of you in Europe and other "Foreign" countries, to my
knowledge there is no way American XLs can be grounded. There just
isn't any authority that can do that. The FAA could ground part 23
certified aircraft, but the XL isn't one of those. I refer to the
Experimental-Amateur Built certified planes. This might be different
for the few AMD built planes that are indeed certified. I have no
idea what authority the FAA has over LSA certificated planes.
As I understand the rules situation, once an experimental
airworthiness certificate is issued for an American plane the
government is mostly finished with it. It is the owner/operator who
must decide what limits to operate that plane under. The
airworthiness certificate does include operating limitations, but I
have never heard of the government here grounding an experimental
plane or suggesting speed limits or load limits for one. The
limitations issued with the certificate are "Boiler Plate" ones that
are issued without regard to the actual design model or builder of the plane.
I admit throwing a few stones at "Aerobat" over his highly
opinionated and misinformed posts. I hope we all try to
differentiate between facts and opinions and label our comments appropriately.
As I mentioned earlier, folks on these lists tend to include their
name and sometimes their location in their posts. Anyone who is
unwilling to include their name immediately attracts distrust.
Paul
XL getting close
do not archive
At 10:36 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>I have also heard this , but have not listed it because clearly all
>we get back for our concerns , is name calling , what is wrong with
>you people over there , we all have flying xl s, that we built .
> when u guys get grounded or have a restriction slapped on your
> aircraft maybe you will see it from our point of view
>I thought aviators and builders tended to stick together.
>there are no bad remarks from competitors here . if you are still
>building a fix is not to much of an issue , If your done and flying
>, or not at the moment , it could be major work to tear it down again .
>grow up the name callers .
>
>Gary
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Simple rivet test/unzip |
Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even talking
about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not use them
for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very weak. A5's
are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I would be
very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the std
heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave
rivet head/flush rivet system.
I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test
assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them
apart by hand. You can quite easily.
Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these ain't
very strong ..." idiot's simple test.
IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then personally
I'd be a bit worried.
Regards,
Jeff
ashontz wrote:
> Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220576#220576
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Gig and Jay, there's the flaw in your logic. "rumor has it" has long
been discredited. "Some Say" is the more authoritative source.
Merry Chistmas
Paul Rodriguez
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: jaybannist@cs.com<mailto:jaybannist@cs.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
Gig - Are you saying that Aerobat is really a Dingbat? (Dingbats do
use "rumor has it" as an authentic information source)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com<mailto:wrgiacona@gmail.com>>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 8:05 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
<wrgiacona@gmail.com<mailto:wrgiacona@gmail.com>>
Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the
Matronics
database. And guess what every single post has been about.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR<http://www.peoamerica.net/N601WR>
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220509#220509<http://forums
.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220509#220509>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at
http://www.cs.com<http://www.cs.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
To our Zenith friends around the world,
On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with commies,
please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American" rants you will
find on these forums. If it is any consolation, these tirades are usually nondiscriminatory
in who they try to offend.
I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me enough
concern that I won't go any further with my project without some structural
enhancements.
This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think everyone
has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember folks, denial
isn't just a river in Australia....). I can understand that it must be
very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't fly. We sympathize
with you and hope for a speedy resolution.
Doug Sire
Billings, MT
601XL
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220587#220587
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Could you be more specific?
dougsire wrote:
> I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me enough
concern that I won't go any further with my project without some structural
enhancements.
--------
Pavel
CA
Zodiac XL N581PM (Reserved)
Stratus Subaru EA-81
Tail, flaps, ailerons, wings done, fuselage is on the table ....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220599#220599
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi
Does anyone know if a 601XL rudder will fit A CH701
Thanks Don 601XL
----- Original Message -----
From: "dougsire" <dsire@imt.net>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
>
> To our Zenith friends around the world,
>
> On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with
> commies, please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American"
> rants you will find on these forums. If it is any consolation, these
> tirades are usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.
>
> I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me
> enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some
> structural enhancements.
>
> This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think
> everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember
> folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....). I can understand
> that it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you
> can't fly. We sympathize with you and hope for a speedy resolution.
>
> Doug Sire
> Billings, MT
> 601XL
>
> --------
> Doug Sire 601XL
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220587#220587
>
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Simple rivet test/unzip |
JUST FOR MY INFORMATION: Have you tried this with a Cherry rivet? Not sure
why Zenith elected to dome a countersunk rivet instead of using the dome rivet.
Did you try the test using dome rivets? Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE
In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:30:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
n85ae@yahoo.com writes:
--> Zenith601-List message posted by: "n85ae" <n85ae@yahoo.com>
Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even
talking
about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not use them
for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very weak. A5's
are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I would be
very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the std
heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave
rivet head/flush rivet system.
I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test
assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them
apart by hand. You can quite easily.
Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these ain't
very strong ..." idiot's simple test.
IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then personally
I'd be a bit worried.
Regards,
Jeff
ashontz wrote:
> Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?
.
**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail,
Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. The NEW
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
dougsire wrote:
> To our Zenith friends around the world,
>
> On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with commies,
please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American" rants you will
find on these forums. If it is any consolation, these tirades are usually
nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.
>
> I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me enough
concern that I won't go any further with my project without some structural
enhancements.
>
> This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think everyone
has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember folks,
denial isn't just a river in Australia....). I can understand that it must
be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't fly. We sympathize
with you and hope for a speedy resolution.
>
> Doug Sire
> Billings, MT
> 601XL
First, I don't give a crap where aerobat is from. I'll be honest that I didn't
even look to see. What I did look at is that he has posted 6 times to the Matronics
lists and they have all been attack posts. He has never posted with a question
or answer about building or flying a CH design (or any other design for
that matter).
Second, where exactly did you see this information? Could it have been in a post
from an anonymous poster like aerobat? By God man if you have information share
it.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220623#220623
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601XL Rudder |
I think it would pretty safe to say, No.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220624#220624
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:36:23AM -0800, GBzodiflyer wrote:
> I have also heard this , but have not listed it because clearly all we get
> back for our concerns , is name calling , what is wrong with you people
> over there , we all have flying xl s, that we built . when u guys get
> grounded or have a restriction slapped on your aircraft maybe you will see
> it from our point of view I thought aviators and builders tended to stick
> together. there are no bad remarks from competitors here . if you are
> still building a fix is not to much of an issue , If your done and flying
> , or not at the moment , it could be major work to tear it down again .
> grow up the name callers .
Gary, you say "there are no bad remarks from competitors here" - but there
have indeed been such in the past. There's been a lot of mud slung at the XL
by folks who want to build up the competition and tear down the Zodiac.
The rumor was that "the FAA will restrict the XL to 450 kg and 97 knots".
First, we're talking about apples and oranges here: the American XL is
different from the European XL. The European aircraft was not designed to a
600 kg max gross in the firstplace, due to the European equivalent to the
light sport rule having that as a maximum limit. That leads to a lighter
airframe requirement. My Zodiac has an empty weight of 850 pounds (385 kg).
That would make it essentially impossible to fly with a 990 pound max gross,
especially since I weigh 200 pounds. Further, the American XL was designed
for a max gross of 1450 pounds (658 kg); its 1320 pound (600 kg) official
max gross is an artifact of the US LSA rules. In the US, I don't know if the
AD process applies to LSAs; if not, then such a directive would have to come
from AMD for factory LSA such as mine, and I'm not at all sure they'd agree
to it.
My name, aircraft registration number, and ham radio callsign are all in the
signature below. I stand behind my words, and it's easy to verify that I'm
who I say I am and that I do indeed own and fly a Zodiac XLi, N55ZC. There
have been lots of anonymous, or effectively anonymous, detractors posting on
the list. Why won't they stand behind their words? Why won't they tell us
who they are? That is severely damaging to their credibility. Yes, aviators
stick together, and need to - but I have no reason to believe that "aerobat"
is part of the community.
There may be a problem with the Zodiac's structure, and if so, I have every
confidence that Chris Heintz will own up to it and issue a fix. Until we get
real information, however, speculation - especially on the basis of the
Dutch grounding (and that they grounded the aircraft and promptly left on a
month's vacation speaks volumes about their professionalism) - helps nobody.
It doesn't help builders, it doesn't help owners, it doesn't help pilots, it
doesn't help the authorities, and it doesn't help Zenair and its affiliated
companies. The only folks it does help are the folks building aircraft and
kits that compete with the Zodiac, and, as far as I'm concerned, they can
damned well fend for themselves in the marketplace without the help of dirty
tricks.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 12:17:24PM -0800, dougsire wrote:
> On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with
> commies, please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American"
> rants you will find on these forums. If it is any consolation, these
> tirades are usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.
FWIW, I don't care where someone posts from. Uninformed speculation and
rumormongering is harmful whether it comes from the UK, the US, or
elsewhere.
> I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me
> enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some
> structural enhancements.
The only structural analysis I've seen (the preliminary report from the
ZBAG) shows that the wing is adequately designed to meet the stated loads.
It's not as overbuilt as some, but the nature of light sport aircraft limits
how much overbuilding is possible.
> This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think
> everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember
> folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....). I can understand that
> it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't
> fly. We sympathize with you and hope for a speedy resolution.
I agree. If my aircraft were grounded by some governmental official who
couldn't be bothered to do his job instead of taking off on vacation and
leaving nobody to resolve the issue, as the Dutch did, I'd be furious.
However, I wouldn't be spreading derogatory rumors about it, especially
without standing behind my words.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
"I, too, have seen a structural analysis that has given me...concern..." I
suspect nearly all of us would much appreciate an elaboration of this.
-
Elden Jacobson
xl/3300
--- On Tue, 12/23/08, dougsire <dsire@imt.net> wrote:
From: dougsire <dsire@imt.net>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
<dsire@imt.net>
To our Zenith friends around the world,
On behalf of all Americans who realize that the UK is not filled with commi
es,
please accept our apologies for the occasional "Ugly American" rants
you will find on these forums. If it is any consolation, these tirades ar
e
usually nondiscriminatory in who they try to offend.
I too have seen a structural analysis of the 601XL wing which has given me
enough concern that I won't go any further with my project without some
structural enhancements.
This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on these lists, and I think
everyone has some level of concern, even if they won't admit it (remember
folks, denial isn't just a river in Australia....). I can understand that
it must be very frustrating to have a completed aircraft that you can't fly
.
We sympathize with you and hope for a speedy resolution.
Doug Sire
Billings, MT
601XL
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220587#220587
=0A=0A=0A
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | XL wing concerns |
Mine is one of 17 odd XLs grounded by the LAA in UK. There is a feeling that both
Chris and Michael Heintz are reluctant to respond to our LAAs observations
on the airframe? Do they intend to engage with them, thereby speeding up the
investigation and hopefully, get the aircraft released for flight?
Our concern is that the eventual outcome might be severe restrictions in the flight
envelope; effectively reducing it to a single seater, limited in both range
and payload! The aircrafts resale value would be greatly reduced, and I believe
buyers would shun away from it
Come on Chris!javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220635#220635
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Simple rivet test/unzip |
Have you tried to make them fail by loading the assemblies in sheer?
Try assembling two thin strips of aluminum with three or four A4
rivets. Attach the end of one strip to an over head support so that
the strips hang straight down lengthwise. Attach a weight to the other
end of the other strip. You might be surprised to find how few rivets
are needed to support you own weight this way. Rivets are not designed
to be loaded in tension, they are designed to carry sheer loads.
Assemblies designed to be loaded in tension generally use bolts to
hold them together.
I am very confident that the A4 rivets will hold up just fine when
they are installed according to the plans with proper edge distance
and rivet spacing. I have been flying my Zodiac for four years and 260
hours and have never had any of the rivets fail under normal use. I
have test flown my airplane to the limits of its flight envelope
during the phase 1 testing. Using larger rivets in place of the A4s
called out in the plans will only add weight and cost to the airplane
without making the structure significantly stronger.
See: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm and http://www.zenithair.com/images/kit-data/ht-87-1.html
>
> I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test
> assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear
> them
> apart by hand. You can quite easily.
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: XL wing concerns |
David,
Who did you buy your plane from? Surely, Michael
Heintz had nothing to do with it in any way. Why
do you think he or Chris should come to your defense?
If you bought your plane from Czech Aircraft
Works, then you have a real problem since, as I
understand it, they have gone bankrupt. If it
was from Zenith, Zenair, or AMD, then you should
be directing your complaints to them.
Where ever did you folks get the notion that the
Heintzs were responsible for your government's actions?
Paul
Camas, WA
USA
At 03:34 PM 12/22/2008, you wrote:
>Mine is one of 17 odd XLs grounded by the LAA
>in UK. There is a feeling that both Chris and
>Michael Heintz are reluctant to respond to our
>LAAs observations on the airframe? Do they
>intend to engage with them, thereby speeding up
>the investigation and hopefully, get the aircraft released for flight?
>Our concern is that the eventual outcome might
>be severe restrictions in the flight envelope;
>effectively reducing it to a single seater,
>limited in both range and payload! The
>aircrafts resale value would be greatly
>reduced, and I believe buyers would shun away from it
>
>Come on Chris!javascript:emoticon(':roll:')
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
The reason my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a Czech
601XL.
An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a dozen or
more different types but the XL is my favourite.
The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know why.
I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering knowledge
but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if they are worried
about the wing then so am I.
I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss things
we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed on second hand
and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.
A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I want
is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.
If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received information from
the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be sued for ?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220645#220645
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Paid Spammer by a "Competitor"...- This simple.
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, jaybannist@cs.com <jaybannist@cs.com> wrote:
From: jaybannist@cs.com <jaybannist@cs.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
Gig - Are you saying that Aerobat is really a Dingbat?- (Dingbats do use
"rumor has it" as an authentic information source)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Gig Giacona <wrgiacona@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 8:05 am
Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding
Let's see, Aerobat has posted a total of 6 times recorded in the Matronics
database. And guess what every single post has been about.
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220509#220509
Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com
=0A=0A=0A
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
I'm curious how long the LAA has been analyzing this problem. Have
they found a problem in a few weeks that others have been spending
months if not years searching for? If so I'm really impressed, and
they won't confirm it. I'm just as concerned about this as anyone
else, but this scenario just doesn't add up. My head isn't in the
sand, but my BS meter is pegged.
The more people vetting a design the better. The problem here is that
the only people who actually have confirmed having done an analysis
haven't found a problem.
Ron
On Dec 22, 2008, at 7:05 PM, aerobat wrote:
> <rhood2000@hotmail.com>
>
> The reason my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I
> own a Czech 601XL.
> An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had
> a dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.
> The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to
> know why.
> I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering
> knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and
> if they are worried about the wing then so am I.
> I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we
> discuss things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but
> maybe passed on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out
> to be fact.
> A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome,
> all I want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.
> If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received
> information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he
> will be sued for ?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220645#220645
>
>
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
So it is your habit to walk into bars and say nothing but negatives and rumors
about the key interest of the rest of the customers.
Man, I bet you get beat up a lot.
aerobat wrote:
> The reason my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a Czech
601XL.
> An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a dozen or
more different types but the XL is my favourite.
> The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know why.
> I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering knowledge
but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if they are worried
about the wing then so am I.
> I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss things
we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed on second
hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.
> A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I want
is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.
> If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received information
from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be sued for ?
--------
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220652#220652
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
This really doesn't sound like a company trying to avoid an issue:
"Netherlands: At this point in time, Zenair is not allowed to inspect the
wreckage of the accident aircraft (we asked); it is locked up and under the
control of the Dutch aeronautical police and only the members of the Dutch
CAA and of the Dutch Safety Board are permitted to inspect it. Zenair will
make arrangements to carefully examine the aircraft remains as soon as
permission to do so is granted."
http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page360.htm
"For many owners of the presently grounded CH 601 XL in Europe, evidence of
progress with the current investigation has been disappointingly slim for
the last week. This is also the case for Zenair Europe. The response from
Dutch authorities to our repeated inquiries has been consistent: "The
investigation is on-going". Our offer to provide input has been politely
declined, as has our request to inspect the accident aircraft, as has our
offer to fly designer Chris Heintz to Holland to answer engineering
questions. Other Civilian Aviation Authorities (CAA) have also attempted to
obtain additional details, to no avail."
http://www.zenairulm.com/News/index_files/Page447.htm
And the LAA has written "The LAA has no reason to believe that the Zenair CH
601 XL wing is in any way structurally defective and, provided that the
aircraft is flown within the limitations defined in the aircraft's Flight
Manual, see no reason for it to fail."
http://www.zenairulm.com/News/pdfdocs/UKGrounding.pdf
-- Craig
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Simple rivet test/unzip |
boy am I terrified to post this: all the comments about the test method are
certainly valid in prebuckled structures. They are meaningless for postbuc
kled structure. Note that there is only one aircraft designed by a major ai
rcraft company that I know of that was designed and stressed post buckled b
y intent. I am not at liberty to give its name because that is priprietary
information. In the event that a structure buckles or nears buckleing, then
the test described, while certainly not statistically valid indeed does st
art to show mode - and that should be a big concern to anyone building any
sheet metal, mechanically fastened airframe from any designer.
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Mon, 12/22/08, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Have you tried to make them fail by loading the assemblies in sheer? Try
assembling two thin strips of aluminum with three or four A4 rivets. Attach
the
end of one strip to an over head support so that the strips hang straight d
own
lengthwise. Attach a weight to the other end of the other strip. You might
be
surprised to find how few rivets are needed to support you own weight this
way.
Rivets are not designed to be loaded in tension, they are designed to carry
sheer loads. Assemblies designed to be loaded in tension generally use bolt
s to
hold them together.
I am very confident that the A4 rivets will hold up just fine when they are
installed according to the plans with proper edge distance and rivet spacin
g. I
have been flying my Zodiac for four years and 260 hours and have never had
any
of the rivets fail under normal use. I have test flown my airplane to the l
imits
of its flight envelope during the phase 1 testing. Using larger rivets in p
lace
of the A4s called out in the plans will only add weight and cost to the air
plane
without making the structure significantly stronger.
See: http://www.zenithair.com/kit-data/use-tls.htm and
http://www.zenithair.com/images/kit-data/ht-87-1.html
<n85ae@yahoo.com>
>
> I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few
test
> assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them
> apart by hand. You can quite easily.
>
--Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 04:05:33PM -0800, aerobat wrote:
> The reason my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a
> An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a
> dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.
I'm really quite fond of mine, too. I'd damned well better be, since I'm on
the hook for over $133,000 for it.
Mine's N55ZC, and you can see pictures of me and it at the link in my
.signature below. What's yours?
> The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know
> why.
I don't think there's a single person on here who doesn't want to know the
answer to that question. I certainly do.
> I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering
> knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if
> they are worried about the wing then so am I.
Why should we believe you when you won't tell us who you are?
Why should I think the LAA has concerns? They're not saying anything in
public. Do you have insider information? How can we be sure your source is
credible?
> I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss
> things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed
> on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.
An awful lot don't, too. What's the value of a rumor that's not backed up by
any kind of information that would allow us to evaluate its accuracy?
> A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I
> want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.
Again, I doubt there's a single person on here who doesn't want to see a
fix, ASAP. I certainly do not have my head in the sand on the subject.
What I do have is a healthy respect for the aircraft and its design
limitations. I don't fly aerobatics in it. I don't do sudden maneuvers of
any kind in it. I don't exceed the limiting airspeeds, I keep it out of the
yellow arc except when the air is absolutely smooth, and I slow down to
maneuvering speed when I encounter any significant amount of turbulence.
Aviation is about risk management. It's not about risk elimination. We
cannot eliminate all risk, and believing to the contrary is wishful thinking
at best. I mitigate the risks of flying my airplane by staying within the
aircraft's limits and my own (and, as a 275-or-so-hour, non-instrument-
rated private pilot, those are quite significant). I do that to the best of
my ability, and I refuse to worry about the rest of it, because I cannot
change it.
It's known that there's no one common causal factor among the accidents.
There is NOTHING ELSE KNOWN. PERIOD. Anything else is RAWEST SPECULATION.
That's not head in the sand. It's a refusal to become paralyzed by risk.
> If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received
> information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be
> sued for ?
And yet you think he'd IGNORE it in the light of that kind of liability?
Just what kind of COMPLETE F***ING IDIOT DO YOU THINK HE IS???!!!!
Get real. Better yet, tell us who the hell you are, or SHUT THE F*** UP!
I've had it with anonymous fearmongers.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
rans6andrew wrote:
> aerobat is the only poster in this thread whose location is in the text below
his name on the left side of the page. It says UK. Sounds good enough for me.
I just noticed this one from looking at the thread on the Matronics web site. My
location is clearly displayed below my name on the left, as well, and it's also
in my signature when I post from email (which is nearly all of them). Just
for the sake of completeness, KFRM is the municipal airport in Fairmont, Minnesota,
a small town about 120 miles southwest of Minneapolis, just north of the
Iowa border. That enough for you?
--------
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220671#220671
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: More on the XL grounding |
Hi Jay
If you would like to talk about this, give me a call, 406-961-5342. I'll be
gone to Missoula much of tomorrow. I'm home tonight, tomorrow morning until
10 or so, and tomorrow evening.
Terry
At 08:01 PM 12/22/2008 -0600, you wrote:
>
>On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 04:05:33PM -0800, aerobat wrote:
> > The reason my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a
> > An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a
> > dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite.
>
>I'm really quite fond of mine, too. I'd damned well better be, since I'm on
>the hook for over $133,000 for it.
>
>Mine's N55ZC, and you can see pictures of me and it at the link in my
>.signature below. What's yours?
>
> > The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know
> > why.
>
>I don't think there's a single person on here who doesn't want to know the
>answer to that question. I certainly do.
>
> > I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering
> > knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if
> > they are worried about the wing then so am I.
>
>Why should we believe you when you won't tell us who you are?
>
>Why should I think the LAA has concerns? They're not saying anything in
>public. Do you have insider information? How can we be sure your source is
>credible?
>
> > I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss
> > things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed
> > on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact.
>
>An awful lot don't, too. What's the value of a rumor that's not backed up by
>any kind of information that would allow us to evaluate its accuracy?
>
> > A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I
> > want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else.
>
>Again, I doubt there's a single person on here who doesn't want to see a
>fix, ASAP. I certainly do not have my head in the sand on the subject.
>
>What I do have is a healthy respect for the aircraft and its design
>limitations. I don't fly aerobatics in it. I don't do sudden maneuvers of
>any kind in it. I don't exceed the limiting airspeeds, I keep it out of the
>yellow arc except when the air is absolutely smooth, and I slow down to
>maneuvering speed when I encounter any significant amount of turbulence.
>
>Aviation is about risk management. It's not about risk elimination. We
>cannot eliminate all risk, and believing to the contrary is wishful thinking
>at best. I mitigate the risks of flying my airplane by staying within the
>aircraft's limits and my own (and, as a 275-or-so-hour, non-instrument-
>rated private pilot, those are quite significant). I do that to the best of
>my ability, and I refuse to worry about the rest of it, because I cannot
>change it.
>
>It's known that there's no one common causal factor among the accidents.
>There is NOTHING ELSE KNOWN. PERIOD. Anything else is RAWEST SPECULATION.
>
>That's not head in the sand. It's a refusal to become paralyzed by risk.
>
> > If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received
> > information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be
> > sued for ?
>
>And yet you think he'd IGNORE it in the light of that kind of liability?
>Just what kind of COMPLETE F***ING IDIOT DO YOU THINK HE IS???!!!!
>
>Get real. Better yet, tell us who the hell you are, or SHUT THE F*** UP!
>
>I've had it with anonymous fearmongers.
>--
>Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
>http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
>Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
>AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
>
Terry Phillips ZBAGer
ttp44~at~rkymtn.net
Corvallis MT
601XL/Jab 3300 s .. l .. o .. o .. w build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons
are done; working on the wings
http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|