Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:57 AM - Re: XL wing concerns (rans6andrew)
2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Jay Maynard)
3. 07:30 AM - Re: 601 problems (Scotsman)
4. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Iberplanes IGL)
5. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip ()
6. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Jeyoung65@aol.com)
7. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems ()
8. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Terry Turnquist)
9. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Geoff Eather)
10. 01:53 PM - Merry Christmas! (Jim Belcher)
11. 03:57 PM - Re: Merry Christmas! (cookwithgas)
12. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Bryan Martin)
13. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (David Downey)
14. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (David Downey)
15. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (David Downey)
16. 06:01 PM - Re: Merry Christmas! (Sabrina)
17. 06:36 PM - Brake Line Anchors (John Smith)
18. 07:02 PM - Re: Brake Line Anchors (Bill Pagan)
19. 08:33 PM - Re: Merry Christmas! (Cory Emberson)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: XL wing concerns |
does anyone know if the 650 uses the same wing/spar/fuselage structure as the 601XL?
Andrew - usual details 601ul etc.
--------
A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL.
Still flying Rans S6 with 503.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220893#220893
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 04:03:09PM -0800, rans6andrew wrote:
> Oh, and feel free to flame me 'cos it seems to be par for the course if
> you post from the UK!
It hasnothing to do with posting fromt he UK, and everything to do with
anonymously making nasty comments about the Zodiac.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
Yes I am currently based in South Africa for about the last seven years but originally
from Scotland.
"It also seems to me that there is something about the XL that makes it more susceptible
to in flight structure failures. I feel the number of
failures is too high to be just random chance, but too low to
indicate a simple design flaw"
I am glad that I am not the only person who feels this way and I believe that the
above quote summarised it nicely. To expand upon it I feel that aileron cable
tension alone would be too "simple" a problem to be the only root cause of
the in flight break ups otherwise similar numbers of failures would be observed
in other types of aircraft.
I sincerely hope that, collectively, the issue is resolved asap as I am feeling
a bit miff at the moment with an expensive paperweight in my garage that I don't
know whether or not to continue with (not forgetting the large financial outlay
for the kit).
I understand the frustrations of the UK guys as I am currently visiting family
in the UK and was at a local airfield where one other builder has also left his
project pending an outcome (in the same hangar another completed XL also sits
grounded)...sad really.
James Roberts
--------
Cell +27 83 675 0815
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220924#220924
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
same here (Spain) , but the right place to make comments such as the one
made by our friend from the UK is the ZBAG yahoo group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/
Hope to see you there !!
Bye.
Alberto Martin
www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain
----------------------------------------------
Zodiac 601 XL Builder
Serial: 6-7011
Tail Kit: Finished
Wings: Not Started
Fuselage: Ordered
Engine: Jabiru 3300
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Simple rivet test/unzip |
Jeff, somewhere in Zenith's literature, I forget where, they address the
practice of making countersunk rivets domed, with the special-cut nose.
It was to work harden the head of the rivet. Adds some strength.
OPINON--Any guy who would go to the level of detail of figuring out how
to develop more strength in a rivet, has probably extended that
attention to detail to bigger things, like spars and attach points.
Until somebody proves otherwise, I'll go along with CH.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeyoung65@aol.com<mailto:Jeyoung65@aol.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip
JUST FOR MY INFORMATION: Have you tried this with a Cherry rivet? Not
sure why Zenith elected to dome a countersunk rivet instead of using the
dome rivet. Did you try the test using dome rivets? Jerry of Ga DO NOT
ARCHIVE
In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:30:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
n85ae@yahoo.com<mailto:n85ae@yahoo.com> writes:
Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't
even talking
about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not
use them
for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very
weak. A5's
are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I
would be
very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the
std
heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave
rivet head/flush rivet system.
I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test
assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear
them
apart by hand. You can quite easily.
Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these
ain't
very strong ..." idiot's simple test.
IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then
personally
I'd be a bit worried.
Regards,
Jeff
ashontz wrote:
> Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets
anyway?
.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL
Mad=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com.
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Zenith601-List>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Simple rivet test/unzip |
Thanks for the input Paul. After find the dome rivets I couldn't figure why
go to the trouble. Jerry of Ga. DO NOT ARCHIVE
In a message dated 12/24/2008 3:33:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
paulrod36@msn.com writes:
Jeff, somewhere in Zenith's literature, I forget where, they address the
practice of making countersunk rivets domed, with the special-cut nose. It was
to work harden the head of the rivet. Adds some strength. OPINON--Any guy who
would go to the level of detail of figuring out how to develop more strength
in a rivet, has probably extended that attention to detail to bigger things,
like spars and attach points. Until somebody proves otherwise, I'll go along
with CH.
Paul Rodriguez
601XL/Corvair
----- Original Message -----
From: _Jeyoung65@aol.com_ (mailto:Jeyoung65@aol.com)
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip
JUST FOR MY INFORMATION: Have you tried this with a Cherry rivet? Not sure
why Zenith elected to dome a countersunk rivet instead of using the dome
rivet. Did you try the test using dome rivets? Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE
In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:30:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
_n85ae@yahoo.com_ (mailto:n85ae@yahoo.com) writes:
Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even talking
about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not use them
for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very weak. A5's
are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I would be
very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the std
heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave
rivet head/flush rivet system.
I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test
assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them
apart by hand. You can quite easily.
Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these ain't
very strong ..." idiot's simple test.
IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then personally
I'd be a bit worried.
Regards,
Jeff
ashontz wrote:
> Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway?
.
____________________________________
One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL
Mad=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com
.
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List)
**************Don't be the last to know - click here for the latest news that
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough
draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go,
and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole
lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about
the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during
manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment
and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to the neutral position,
I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally
there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this?
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey<mailto:planecrazydld@yahoo.com>
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it
is real.
David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA
--- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland
<larry@macsmachine.com<mailto:larry@macsmachine.com>> wrote:
From: LarryMcFarland
<larry@macsmachine.com<mailto:larry@macsmachine.com>>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
To:
zenith601-list@matronics.com<mailto:zenith601-list@matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:17 PM
LarryMcFarland<larry@macsmachine.com>James,I'd think if cable tension
could become harmonic with the ailerons at a lesser tension than
specified, the logical thing to do would be to place guides half or
third the distance between ends to
keepthe cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I
don't use more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and
the conditions are slightly different.Seriously doubt cable tension has
anything to do with inducing or enlarging the frequency of wing flutter,
even in the XL, but there's nothing wrong with being on the safe
side.Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.comScotsman wrote:> -->
Zenith601-List message posted by:
"Scotsman"<james.roberts@computershare.co.za>>> While I don't
necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat(regardless of his/her
motives) has to say his/her comment "there must bemany other types out
there with incorrect cable tensions flying without droppingout of the
sky" seems to bear some merit.>> If cable tension was the single problem
causing catastrophic failure thenyou would expect to see this
alleged aileron flutter resulting in structuralfailure across numerous
other types (both Zenith designs and other designs). Since I do not
observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularlysusceptible to
a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter.>> Furthermore, the
potential for the wing folding incidents beingexacerbated or caused by
overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as manyaircraft are
often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead
tocatastrophic failure.>> Does anyone agree with the above thinking?>>>
James Roberts>> BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of
building(although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and
this can be seenon the South African distributors website.>> -------->
Cell +27 83 675 0815>>>>> Read this topic online
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List<about:3D"http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
http://forums.matronics.com<about:3D"http://forums.matronics.com">
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
Wow, I thought a while back the discussion was about back sweep!!!
Do not archive
Terry Turnquist
paulrod36@msn.com wrote: You're not the only one..I've been putting the
wings in place as a rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel
lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep.
Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know
about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture,
my original skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation.
If I pivot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a
load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any.
Anybody got any ideas on this?
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design -
because it is real.
David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA
--- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
From: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
<larry@macsmachine.com>
James,
I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a
lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place
guides half or third the distance between ends to
keep
the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use
more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the
conditions are slightly different.
Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or
enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's
nothing wrong with being on the safe side.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scotsman wrote:
<james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
> While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat
(regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be
many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dropping
out of the sky" seems to bear some merit.
>
> If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then
you would expect to see this
alleged aileron flutter resulting in structural
failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs).
Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly
susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter.
>
> Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being
exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as many
aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to
catastrophic failure.
>
> Does anyone agree with the above thinking?
>
>
> James Roberts
>
> BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building
(although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be seen
on the South African distributors website.
>
> --------
> Cell +27 83 675 0815
>
>
> Read this topic online
3D============================================
title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
3D============================================
title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
3D============================================
href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
3D============================================
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
Paul
Doesn't wing sweep depend on the angle of the front spar? If you make the
front spar vertical (by lifting the front wheel) then the sweep magically
"disappears"!! - see pics
ge
_____
From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
paulrod36@msn.com
Sent: 25 December, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough
draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and
once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but
it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and
carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original
skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I
pivot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the
spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody
got any ideas on this?
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey <mailto:planecrazydld@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it is real.
David L. Downey
Harleysville (SE) PA, USA
--- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com> wrote:
From: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
<larry@macsmachine.com>
James,
I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a
lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place
guides half or third the distance between ends to
keep
the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use
more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the
conditions are slightly different.
Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or
enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's
nothing wrong with being on the safe side.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scotsman wrote:
<james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
> While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat
(regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be
many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without
dropping
out of the sky" seems to bear some merit.
>
> If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then
you would expect to see this
alleged aileron flutter resulting in structural
failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs).
Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly
susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter.
>
> Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being
exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as
many
aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to
catastrophic failure.
>
> Does anyone agree with the above thinking?
>
>
> James Roberts
>
> BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building
(although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be
seen
on the South African distributors website.
>
> --------
> Cell +27 83 675 0815
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online
3D=========================3
D===================
title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
3D=========================3
D===================
title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
3D=========================3
D===================
href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
3D=========================3
D===================
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Merry Christmas! |
Merry Christmas to everyone on the Zenith list, from the mountains of far west
Texas!
================================================
Jim B. Belcher
BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
A&P/IA
Instrument Rated Pilot
General Radio Telephone Certificate
================================================
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Merry Christmas! |
And Merry Christmas also from Snowy Omaha, Nebraska.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220999#220999
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
The forward sweep is an artifact of the 3 degree forward tilt of the
spar and the wing dihedral. If you raise the nose until the spar is
vertical you will see no forward sweep. During final assembly, the
entire spar web should be on the same plane with no bend in it.
On Dec 24, 2008, at 3:45 PM, <paulrod36@msn.com> <paulrod36@msn.com>
wrote:
> You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a
> rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and
> wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep.
> Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what
> we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually
> mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has
> turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to
> the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-
> through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any
> ideas on this?
>
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
nothing easy or simple.
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, paulrod36@msn.com <paulrod36@msn.com> wrote:
From: paulrod36@msn.com <paulrod36@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough
draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, an
d
once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but
it's
there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and
carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original
skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I piv
ot
the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the
spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody
got
any ideas on this?
-
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57
PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601
problems
...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design -
because it is real.
David L. Downey
Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On
Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
From:
LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject:
Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:17 PM
<larry@macsmachine.com>
James,
I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a
lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place
guides half or third the distance between ends to
keep
the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use
more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the
conditions are slightly different.
Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or
enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's
nothing wrong with being on the safe side.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scotsman wrote:
<james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
> While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat
(regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be
many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dro
pping
out of the sky" seems to bear some merit.
>
> If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then
you would expect to see this
alleged aileron flutter resulting in structural
failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs)
.
Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly
susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter.
>
> Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being
exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as
many
aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to
catastrophic failure.
>
> Does anyone agree with the above thinking?
>
>
> James Roberts
>
> BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building
(although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be
seen
on the South African distributors website.
>
> --------
> Cell +27 83 675 0815
>
>
> Read this topic online
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http:/
/www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"' href
='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
=0A=0A=0A
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
unfortunately the loads resolve structurally without regard to the lifting.
..
A vertical shear web through the wing allows a zero sweep wing. That is a v
ery major modification to the XL.
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Geoff Eather <geather@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
From: Geoff Eather <geather@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
Paul
-
Doesn=92t wing sweep depend on the
angle of the front spar? If you make the front spar vertical (by lifting th
e
front wheel) then the sweep magically =93disappears=94!! ' see pics
-
ge
-
-
-
From:
owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-serv
er@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of paulrod36@msn.com
Sent: 25 December, 2008 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re:
601 problems
-
You're not the only
one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out wh
ere
the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary
pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's dri
ving
me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being
individually mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep h
as
turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to the
neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, wh
ere
ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this?
-
Paul Rodriguez
----- Original Message -----
From: David Downey
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
-
...I keep mentioning
the forward swept wing design - because it is real.
David L. Downey
Harleysville-(SE) PA,
USA
--- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
wrote:
From: LarryMcFarland
<larry@macsmachine.com>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
To: zenith601-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:17 PM
<larry@macsmachine.com>
James,
I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a
lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place
guides half or third the distance between ends to -keep
the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use
more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the
conditions are slightly different.
Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or
enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's
nothing wrong with being on the safe side.
Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com
Scotsman wrote:
<james.roberts@computershare.co.za>
>
> While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat
(regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be
many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dro
pping
out of the sky" seems to bear some merit.
>
> If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then
you would expect to see this alleged aileron flutter resulting in structura
l
failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs)
.
Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly
susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter.
>
> Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being
exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as
many
aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to
catastrophic failure.
>
> Does anyone agree with the above thinking?
>
>
> James Roberts
>
> BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building
(although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be
seen
on the South African distributors website.
>
> --------
> Cell-- +27 83 675 0815
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online ------ - -3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dtitle='about:3D"ht
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/c
ontribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dtitle='about:3D"ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'
href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.
matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://forums.matronics.
com"'>http://forums.matronics.com3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: 601 problems |
do you guys understand that lift and drag induced bending only see the stru
ctural sweep?
David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Bryan Martin <bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems
<bryanmmartin@comcast.net>
The forward sweep is an artifact of the 3 degree forward tilt of the spar a
nd
the wing dihedral. If you raise the nose until the spar is vertical you wil
l see
no forward sweep. During final assembly, the entire spar web should be on t
he
same plane with no bend in it.
On Dec 24, 2008, at 3:45 PM, <paulrod36@msn.com>
<paulrod36@msn.com> wrote:
> You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a
rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires
go,
and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot,
but
it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars
and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my origi
nal
skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I piv
ot
the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the
spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody
got any ideas on this?
>
--Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL,
RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.
do not archive.
=0A=0A=0A
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Merry Christmas! |
Merry Christmas Jim... "Sabrina Ranch" is adjacent to KFST, partially within the
West Texas SP. We are almost neighbors.
Scott, did you get my card? Gig?
Happy Holidays to all,
Sabrina, Chicago with 50s predicted for this weekend!
P.S. May Santa send everyone on the list two AS5 rivets and a whole lot of Christmas
cheer!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221005#221005
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Brake Line Anchors |
I am about to run the hydraulic brake lines and wondering how other builder
s run the tubes and how to anchor the brake tubes outside the fuselage-al
ong the landing gear?- I suppose drilling holes in the landing gear to pu
t in anchors isn't a good idea?=0A=0A=0A
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Brake Line Anchors |
Lots of builders have used ADEL clamps and drilled/tapped into the landing
gear.- Seems have ZAC approval.
Bill Pagan
EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Wed, 12/24/08, John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: John Smith <zenithlist@yahoo.com>
Subject: Zenith601-List: Brake Line Anchors
I am about to run the hydraulic brake lines and wondering how other builder
s run the tubes and how to anchor the brake tubes outside the fuselage-al
ong the landing gear?- I suppose drilling holes in the landing gear to pu
t in anchors isn't a good idea?
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
=0A=0A=0A
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Merry Christmas! |
Merry Christmas, everyone, from the rainy East Bay of SF, CA!
Jim Belcher wrote:
>
> Merry Christmas to everyone on the Zenith list, from the mountains of far west
> Texas!
> ================================================
> Jim B. Belcher
> BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science
> A&P/IA
> Instrument Rated Pilot
> General Radio Telephone Certificate
> ================================================
>
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|