---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/24/08: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:57 AM - Re: XL wing concerns (rans6andrew) 2. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Jay Maynard) 3. 07:30 AM - Re: 601 problems (Scotsman) 4. 07:39 AM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Iberplanes IGL) 5. 12:28 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip () 6. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip (Jeyoung65@aol.com) 7. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems () 8. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Terry Turnquist) 9. 01:50 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Geoff Eather) 10. 01:53 PM - Merry Christmas! (Jim Belcher) 11. 03:57 PM - Re: Merry Christmas! (cookwithgas) 12. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (Bryan Martin) 13. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (David Downey) 14. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (David Downey) 15. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: 601 problems (David Downey) 16. 06:01 PM - Re: Merry Christmas! (Sabrina) 17. 06:36 PM - Brake Line Anchors (John Smith) 18. 07:02 PM - Re: Brake Line Anchors (Bill Pagan) 19. 08:33 PM - Re: Merry Christmas! (Cory Emberson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:07 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "rans6andrew" does anyone know if the 650 uses the same wing/spar/fuselage structure as the 601XL? Andrew - usual details 601ul etc. -------- A good way through building a 601UL with 912UL. Still flying Rans S6 with 503. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220893#220893 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:23 AM PST US From: Jay Maynard Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 04:03:09PM -0800, rans6andrew wrote: > Oh, and feel free to flame me 'cos it seems to be par for the course if > you post from the UK! It hasnothing to do with posting fromt he UK, and everything to do with anonymously making nasty comments about the Zodiac. -- Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL http://www.conmicro.com http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:03 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems From: "Scotsman" Yes I am currently based in South Africa for about the last seven years but originally from Scotland. "It also seems to me that there is something about the XL that makes it more susceptible to in flight structure failures. I feel the number of failures is too high to be just random chance, but too low to indicate a simple design flaw" I am glad that I am not the only person who feels this way and I believe that the above quote summarised it nicely. To expand upon it I feel that aileron cable tension alone would be too "simple" a problem to be the only root cause of the in flight break ups otherwise similar numbers of failures would be observed in other types of aircraft. I sincerely hope that, collectively, the issue is resolved asap as I am feeling a bit miff at the moment with an expensive paperweight in my garage that I don't know whether or not to continue with (not forgetting the large financial outlay for the kit). I understand the frustrations of the UK guys as I am currently visiting family in the UK and was at a local airfield where one other builder has also left his project pending an outcome (in the same hangar another completed XL also sits grounded)...sad really. James Roberts -------- Cell +27 83 675 0815 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220924#220924 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:33 AM PST US From: "Iberplanes IGL" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems same here (Spain) , but the right place to make comments such as the one made by our friend from the UK is the ZBAG yahoo group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ZBAG/ Hope to see you there !! Bye. Alberto Martin www.iberplanes.es Igualada - Barcelona - Spain ---------------------------------------------- Zodiac 601 XL Builder Serial: 6-7011 Tail Kit: Finished Wings: Not Started Fuselage: Ordered Engine: Jabiru 3300 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:59 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Jeff, somewhere in Zenith's literature, I forget where, they address the practice of making countersunk rivets domed, with the special-cut nose. It was to work harden the head of the rivet. Adds some strength. OPINON--Any guy who would go to the level of detail of figuring out how to develop more strength in a rivet, has probably extended that attention to detail to bigger things, like spars and attach points. Until somebody proves otherwise, I'll go along with CH. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeyoung65@aol.com To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip JUST FOR MY INFORMATION: Have you tried this with a Cherry rivet? Not sure why Zenith elected to dome a countersunk rivet instead of using the dome rivet. Did you try the test using dome rivets? Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:30:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, n85ae@yahoo.com writes: Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even talking about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not use them for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very weak. A5's are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I would be very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the std heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave rivet head/flush rivet system. I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them apart by hand. You can quite easily. Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these ain't very strong ..." idiot's simple test. IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then personally I'd be a bit worried. Regards, Jeff ashontz wrote: > Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway? . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mad=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com. http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:41 PM PST US From: Jeyoung65@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip Thanks for the input Paul. After find the dome rivets I couldn't figure why go to the trouble. Jerry of Ga. DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 12/24/2008 3:33:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, paulrod36@msn.com writes: Jeff, somewhere in Zenith's literature, I forget where, they address the practice of making countersunk rivets domed, with the special-cut nose. It was to work harden the head of the rivet. Adds some strength. OPINON--Any guy who would go to the level of detail of figuring out how to develop more strength in a rivet, has probably extended that attention to detail to bigger things, like spars and attach points. Until somebody proves otherwise, I'll go along with CH. Paul Rodriguez 601XL/Corvair ----- Original Message ----- From: _Jeyoung65@aol.com_ (mailto:Jeyoung65@aol.com) Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Simple rivet test/unzip JUST FOR MY INFORMATION: Have you tried this with a Cherry rivet? Not sure why Zenith elected to dome a countersunk rivet instead of using the dome rivet. Did you try the test using dome rivets? Jerry of Ga DO NOT ARCHIVE In a message dated 12/22/2008 2:30:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, _n85ae@yahoo.com_ (mailto:n85ae@yahoo.com) writes: Well for what it's worth, I'm an 801 builder anyway. So I wasn't even talking about ailerons when I made my post. Just A4's in general. I will not use them for anything that holds any real load in any case. They are very weak. A5's are significantly stronger. The published specs for the rivets - I would be very skeptical of in any case. Maybe they make the grade with the std heads. But sure don't seem to make the grade with the zenith concave rivet head/flush rivet system. I'd suggest if anybody doesn't believe me, that they make a few test assemblies, and then put on a tough pair of gloves and try to tear them apart by hand. You can quite easily. Ok, so that's NOT scientific, but to me they fail the "hmm, these ain't very strong ..." idiot's simple test. IF you have something like an aileron attached with them, then personally I'd be a bit worried. Regards, Jeff ashontz wrote: > Without looking at my plans, doesn't the wing call for A5 rivets anyway? .. ____________________________________ One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mad=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000019">The NEW AOL.com .. href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List) **************Don't be the last to know - click here for the latest news that ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:28 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this? Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems ...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it is real. David L. Downey Harleysville (SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland > wrote: From: LarryMcFarland > Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:17 PM LarryMcFarlandJames,I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place guides half or third the distance between ends to keepthe cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the conditions are slightly different.Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's nothing wrong with being on the safe side.Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.comScotsman wrote:> --> Zenith601-List message posted by: "Scotsman">> While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat(regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must bemany other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without droppingout of the sky" seems to bear some merit.>> If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure thenyou would expect to see this alleged aileron flutter resulting in structuralfailure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs). Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularlysusceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter.>> Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents beingexacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as manyaircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead tocatastrophic failure.>> Does anyone agree with the above thinking?>>> James Roberts>> BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building(although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be seenon the South African distributors website.>> --------> Cell +27 83 675 0815>>>>> Read this topic online 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:14 PM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems Wow, I thought a while back the discussion was about back sweep!!! Do not archive Terry Turnquist paulrod36@msn.com wrote: You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this? Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems ...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it is real. David L. Downey Harleysville (SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland wrote: From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems James, I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place guides half or third the distance between ends to keep the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the conditions are slightly different. Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's nothing wrong with being on the safe side. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Scotsman wrote: > > While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat (regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dropping out of the sky" seems to bear some merit. > > If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then you would expect to see this alleged aileron flutter resulting in structural failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs). Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter. > > Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as many aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to catastrophic failure. > > Does anyone agree with the above thinking? > > > James Roberts > > BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building (although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be seen on the South African distributors website. > > -------- > Cell +27 83 675 0815 > > > Read this topic online 3D============================================ title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D============================================ title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List 3D============================================ href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D============================================ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:33 PM PST US From: "Geoff Eather" Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems Paul Doesn't wing sweep depend on the angle of the front spar? If you make the front spar vertical (by lifting the front wheel) then the sweep magically "disappears"!! - see pics ge _____ From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paulrod36@msn.com Sent: 25 December, 2008 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this? Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems ...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it is real. David L. Downey Harleysville (SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland wrote: From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems James, I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place guides half or third the distance between ends to keep the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the conditions are slightly different. Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's nothing wrong with being on the safe side. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Scotsman wrote: > > While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat (regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dropping out of the sky" seems to bear some merit. > > If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then you would expect to see this alleged aileron flutter resulting in structural failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs). Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter. > > Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as many aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to catastrophic failure. > > Does anyone agree with the above thinking? > > > James Roberts > > BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building (although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be seen on the South African distributors website. > > -------- > Cell +27 83 675 0815 > > > > > Read this topic online 3D=========================3 D=================== title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution 3D=========================3 D=================== title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List 3D=========================3 D=================== href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=========================3 D=================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:54 PM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Zenith601-List: Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas to everyone on the Zenith list, from the mountains of far west Texas! ================================================ Jim B. Belcher BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science A&P/IA Instrument Rated Pilot General Radio Telephone Certificate ================================================ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:10 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Merry Christmas! From: "cookwithgas" And Merry Christmas also from Snowy Omaha, Nebraska. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=220999#220999 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:33 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems The forward sweep is an artifact of the 3 degree forward tilt of the spar and the wing dihedral. If you raise the nose until the spar is vertical you will see no forward sweep. During final assembly, the entire spar web should be on the same plane with no bend in it. On Dec 24, 2008, at 3:45 PM, wrote: > You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a > rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and > wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. > Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what > we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually > mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has > turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to > the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry- > through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any > ideas on this? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:56 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems nothing easy or simple. David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Wed, 12/24/08, paulrod36@msn.com wrote: From: paulrod36@msn.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, an d once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I piv ot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this? - Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems ...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it is real. David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland wrote: From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:17 PM James, I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place guides half or third the distance between ends to keep the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the conditions are slightly different. Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's nothing wrong with being on the safe side. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Scotsman wrote: > > While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat (regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dro pping out of the sky" seems to bear some merit. > > If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then you would expect to see this alleged aileron flutter resulting in structural failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs) . Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter. > > Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as many aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to catastrophic failure. > > Does anyone agree with the above thinking? > > > James Roberts > > BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building (although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be seen on the South African distributors website. > > -------- > Cell +27 83 675 0815 > > > Read this topic online 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http:/ /www.matronics.com/contribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D title='about:3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"' href ='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D href='3D"http://forums.matronics.com"'>http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:50:27 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems unfortunately the loads resolve structurally without regard to the lifting. .. A vertical shear web through the wing allows a zero sweep wing. That is a v ery major modification to the XL. David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Wed, 12/24/08, Geoff Eather wrote: From: Geoff Eather Subject: RE: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems Paul - Doesn=92t wing sweep depend on the angle of the front spar? If you make the front spar vertical (by lifting th e front wheel) then the sweep magically =93disappears=94!! ' see pics - ge - - - From: owner-zenith601-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith601-list-serv er@matronics.com] On Behalf Of paulrod36@msn.com Sent: 25 December, 2008 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems - You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out wh ere the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's dri ving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my original skepticism about sweep h as turned to wonderment and consternation. If I pivot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, wh ere ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this? - Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: David Downey Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:57 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems - ...I keep mentioning the forward swept wing design - because it is real. David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Tue, 12/23/08, LarryMcFarland wrote: From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 5:17 PM James, I'd think if cable tension could become harmonic with the ailerons at a lesser tension than specified, the logical thing to do would be to place guides half or third the distance between ends to -keep the cables from becoming a player in the harmonic situation. I don't use more than 25 lbs on any of my cables, but then it's a HDS and the conditions are slightly different. Seriously doubt cable tension has anything to do with inducing or enlarging the frequency of wing flutter, even in the XL, but there's nothing wrong with being on the safe side. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Scotsman wrote: > > While I don't necessarily agree with everything that Aerobat (regardless of his/her motives) has to say his/her comment "there must be many other types out there with incorrect cable tensions flying without dro pping out of the sky" seems to bear some merit. > > If cable tension was the single problem causing catastrophic failure then you would expect to see this alleged aileron flutter resulting in structura l failure across numerous other types (both Zenith designs and other designs) . Since I do not observe this I consider that maybe the XL is particularly susceptible to a failure mode resultant from aileron flutter. > > Furthermore, the potential for the wing folding incidents being exacerbated or caused by overloading thus should not be unique to the XL as many aircraft are often overloaded yet this does not appear to commonly lead to catastrophic failure. > > Does anyone agree with the above thinking? > > > James Roberts > > BTW - Yes I do own a XL kit which I am in the process of building (although currently stopped awaiting clarity on the matter) and this can be seen on the South African distributors website. > > -------- > Cell-- +27 83 675 0815 > > > > > Read this topic online ------ - -3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dtitle='about:3D"ht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/c ontribution"'>http://www.matronics.com/contribution3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dtitle='about:3D"ht tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"' href='3D"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List"'>http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dhref='3D"http://forums.matronics. com"'>http://forums.matronics.com3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - -http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:43 PM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems do you guys understand that lift and drag induced bending only see the stru ctural sweep? David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Wed, 12/24/08, Bryan Martin wrote: From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: 601 problems The forward sweep is an artifact of the 3 degree forward tilt of the spar a nd the wing dihedral. If you raise the nose until the spar is vertical you wil l see no forward sweep. During final assembly, the entire spar web should be on t he same plane with no bend in it. On Dec 24, 2008, at 3:45 PM, wrote: > You're not the only one..I've been putting the wings in place as a rough draft to figure out where the holes for cables, fuel lines and wires go, and once I get the temporary pins in, I see forward sweep. Not a whole lot, but it's there, and it's driving me nuts. With what we know about the spars and carry-through all being individually mated during manufacture, my origi nal skepticism about sweep has turned to wonderment and consternation. If I piv ot the wings back to the neutral position, I'm putting a load on the spar-to-carry-through joint, where ideally there shouldn't be any. Anybody got any ideas on this? > --Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:15 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Merry Christmas! From: "Sabrina" Merry Christmas Jim... "Sabrina Ranch" is adjacent to KFST, partially within the West Texas SP. We are almost neighbors. Scott, did you get my card? Gig? Happy Holidays to all, Sabrina, Chicago with 50s predicted for this weekend! P.S. May Santa send everyone on the list two AS5 rivets and a whole lot of Christmas cheer! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=221005#221005 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:08 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Zenith601-List: Brake Line Anchors I am about to run the hydraulic brake lines and wondering how other builder s run the tubes and how to anchor the brake tubes outside the fuselage-al ong the landing gear?- I suppose drilling holes in the landing gear to pu t in anchors isn't a good idea?=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:30 PM PST US From: Bill Pagan Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Brake Line Anchors Lots of builders have used ADEL clamps and drilled/tapped into the landing gear.- Seems have ZAC approval. Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395 601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES) --- On Wed, 12/24/08, John Smith wrote: From: John Smith Subject: Zenith601-List: Brake Line Anchors I am about to run the hydraulic brake lines and wondering how other builder s run the tubes and how to anchor the brake tubes outside the fuselage-al ong the landing gear?- I suppose drilling holes in the landing gear to pu t in anchors isn't a good idea? 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:33 PM PST US From: Cory Emberson Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas, everyone, from the rainy East Bay of SF, CA! Jim Belcher wrote: > > Merry Christmas to everyone on the Zenith list, from the mountains of far west > Texas! > ================================================ > Jim B. Belcher > BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science > A&P/IA > Instrument Rated Pilot > General Radio Telephone Certificate > ================================================ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.