---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/01/09: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:07 AM - Re: Carby Air/Heat box (Ianrat) 2. 04:48 AM - Re: Re: Carby Air/Heat box (Afterfxllc@aol.com) 3. 08:12 AM - Re: Hand Riveter Heads (dalemed) 4. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Hand Riveter Heads (Bill Naumuk) 5. 10:40 AM - Re: Yuba City Probable cause released (David X) 6. 11:05 AM - Re: Re: Yuba City Probable cause released (Bryan Martin) 7. 11:23 AM - Re: NTSB report (David X) 8. 11:24 AM - Re: Re: Yuba City Probable cause released (jaybannist@cs.com) 9. 11:30 AM - Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons (David X) 10. 11:51 AM - Re: XL wing concerns (David X) 11. 12:09 PM - Re: More on the XL grounding (David X) 12. 01:34 PM - Re: NTSB report (Sabrina) 13. 01:44 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (Sabrina) 14. 02:02 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (David X) 15. 02:04 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (Sabrina) 16. 02:37 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (David X) 17. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: XL wing concerns (Paul Mulwitz) 18. 02:45 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (David X) 19. 02:50 PM - Re: Re: NTSB report (Walter Carey) 20. 03:36 PM - Re: NTSB report (David X) 21. 04:35 PM - Re: XL wing concerns (Sabrina) 22. 06:06 PM - Re: NTSB report (Sabrina) 23. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: NTSB report (John Smith) 24. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: NTSB report (Bryan Martin) 25. 10:15 PM - Re: NTSB report (Sabrina) 26. 11:05 PM - Official Zenith601-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 27. 11:13 PM - Official Zenith601-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:04 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Carby Air/Heat box From: "Ianrat" Thank you Jay. That is the one that i have seen at the WW site. I have already finished the cowling unfortunately (It came with the motor that i purchased) and do not want to purchase another one. Thank you Ianrat Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222147#222147 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:44 AM PST US From: Afterfxllc@aol.com Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Carby Air/Heat box I have the dimensions but I will have to go to the airport tomorrow and get them or I could make you one if you like. They take some time to make but not hard at all. Jeff Garrett Louisville Ky. 601XL N962T Aerolite Corvair 90% 601XL N524B Aerolite Corvair 155 Hrs 601XL N2257 Aerolite Corvair 225 Hrs _www.aeroliteproducts.com_ (http://www.aeroliteproducts.com/) _www.project601xl.com_ (http://www.project601xl.com/) www.aerolite.camstreams.com **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:37 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Hand Riveter Heads From: "dalemed" Thank you, everyone, for the information and guidance. I guess I'll make my own :) -------- Dale Flying Cessna 170B Building Zenith CH650 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222183#222183 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:21 AM PST US From: "Bill Naumuk" Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Hand Riveter Heads Dale- Just a logical extension of the decision you made to build your own airplane, isn't it!! Bill do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "dalemed" Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Hand Riveter Heads > > Thank you, everyone, for the information and guidance. I guess I'll make > my own :) > > -------- > Dale > Flying Cessna 170B > Building Zenith CH650 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222183#222183 > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:40:14 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Yuba City Probable cause released From: "David X" I do not recall that ZAC ever did a negative G static test on this aircraft. jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > I guess I still don't understand the difference between static and dynamic loads. The report said that all the overloads were static, not dynamic. ZAC tested the 601XL wings for static loads twice and they passed with flying colors. So the static loads seen by the failed wings and horizontal stabilizer must have been greater than they were designed for. > > Jay in Dallas > Do not archive > > > > > > -- -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222206#222206 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:15 AM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Yuba City Probable cause released See: http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/6-photo-testing.html The pictures shown near the top of the page show negative G static load testing. Positive G load testing would be done with the airframe upside down with the sandbags stacked on the bottom of the wings. Positive G load testing is shown in some of the photos in the lower part of the page. On Jan 1, 2009, at 1:38 PM, David X wrote: > > I do not recall that ZAC ever did a negative G static test on this > aircraft. > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:36 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report From: "David X" I can't imagine why someone would spend so much money and time on such a thing as aircraft, yet not invest a few hundred in a cable tension meter (or pay an AP to check the tensions). There's cheap, and then there's foolish. zenithlist(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Walter, > > I think your idea of share cable tension gauge is great. It allows the gauge to be more accessible, and, hopefully, more planes to be correctly tensioned. Put me in your list. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222214#222214 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Yuba City Probable cause released From: jaybannist@cs.com Go to the Zenithair.com site, click on 601 series, go clear to the bottom of the page and search 601 wing load test.? You will find two separate series of test photos, both negative and positive. Jay in Dallas Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: David X Sent: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:38 pm Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Yuba City Probable cause released I do not recall that ZAC ever did a negative G static test on this aircraft. jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: > I guess I still don't understand the difference between static and dynamic loads. The report said that all the overloads were static, not dynamic. ZAC tested the 601XL wings for static loads twice and they passed with flying colors. So the static loads seen by the failed wings and horizontal stabilizer must have been greater than they were designed for. > > Jay in Dallas > Do not archive > > > > > > -- -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222206#222206 ________________________________________________________________________ Email message sent from CompuServe - visit us today at http://www.cs.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:53 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Retrofitting hingeless ailerons From: "David X" Try placing your hand at each end of the aileron and push down with one hand and pull up with the other. There is a lot of give in a hingeless that's not there in a hinged. Would this allow the hingeless to osculate more or would it allow the hingeless to osculate less in a flutter condition? Nobody knows. ashontz wrote: > Some people have been suggesting that the hinged ailerons on the XL could in fact be a source of flutter. That being the case, I'm thinking about going back to the hingeless ailerons. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222217#222217 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:31 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "David X" The lady doth protest too much. Paul, are you a spokesman for ZAC, I wonder? -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222227#222227 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:01 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: More on the XL grounding From: "David X" By your same logic ... if it looks and smells like bull 5h1t, then it's bull 5h1t! aerobat wrote: > The reason my posts are all on the same subject is quite simple, I own a Czech 601XL. > An aeroplane that I am extremely fond of, over the years I have had a dozen or more different types but the XL is my favourite. > The only problem is wings keep falling off them and I really want to know why. > I am just a fifteen thousand hour pilot with no in depth engineering knowledge but our UK LAA is a highly respected professional body and if they are worried about the wing then so am I. > I treat this forum like when I go to the bar with my friends, we discuss things we have heard, not everything is a hard fact but but maybe passed on second hand and an awful lot of rumours do turn out to be fact. > A lot of people here seem to suffer from head in the sand syndrome, all I want is a fix for the XL before it kills anyone else. > If another one crashes and the designer is found to have received information from the LAA and ignored, it how much do you think he will be sued for ? -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222229#222229 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:03 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report From: "Sabrina" David, You forget that Zenith's official position as of November of 2007 was that you did not need a tension gauge, that your fingers could do the walking. So too, when asked, they would call out different tensions depending upon who you talked to. So, no wonder why so many aircraft are flying out there with improperly tensioned cables. Who knows, is Zenith correct or Larry? Sometimes I wonder if Larry's lower numbers make more sense. Anyone who completed before 11/07 is neither cheap nor foolish, just following what Zenith said. I would be more afraid to fly an aircraft built to plans pages not signed off by CH as some CZAW are, than fly an aircraft with lower cable tensions called out by Larry and others. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222236#222236 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:20 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "Sabrina" David, Which CZAW version do you have? Is your rear spar attach lowered? Is your center spar modified per the CZAW plans show above? What is the thickness of your rear side skins? Not protesting, just gathering information... :o) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222239#222239 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:40 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "David X" Sabrina, the aircraft was built as per ZAC drawings in order to qualify as LSA class. How would one know if any of the parts below were "changed"? Please clarify what it is you want to know. Sabrina wrote: > David, > > Which CZAW version do you have? > > Is your rear spar attach lowered? > > Is your center spar modified per the CZAW plans shown above? > > What is the thickness of your rear side skins? > > Not protesting, just gathering information... :o) > > Same question to you as Martin... David: Are any of these items changed as well on your version of the CZAW 601XL? 6B-5-1, 6B5-4, 6B5-6, 6B-5-2, 6B-18-1, 6B-18-3, 6W-1-1,6W-1-2, 6B-11-2 > > Player Queen: > Both here and hence pursue me lasting strife, > If once I be a widow, ever I be a wife! > > Player King: > 'Tis deeply sworn. Sweet, leave me here a while, > My spirits grow dull, and fain I would beguile > The tedious day with sleep. > > Player Queen: > Sleep rock thy brain, > And never come mischance between us twain! > > Hamlet: > Madam, how like you this play? > > Queen: > The lady doth protest too much, methinks. > Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222230 -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222241#222241 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:35 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "Sabrina" I find my Zenith doth depend upon A most auspicious star, whose influence If now I court not, but omit, my fortunes Will ever after droop. Here cease more questions. (Tempest I.ii.217-220) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222242#222242 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:42 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "David X" I see that you are referring to the rear spar and attach points (6b5-1,2,4,6), the center arm rest (6b18-1), the seat belt attach points (6b18-3), flap rib (6w1-1), flap skin (6w1-2) and forward side skins (6b11-2). (see attached) What specifically information are you looking for? Sabrina wrote: > David: Are any of these items changed as well on your version of the CZAW 601XL? 6B-5-1, 6B5-4, 6B5-6, 6B-5-2, 6B-18-1, 6B-18-3, 6W-1-1,6W-1-2, 6B-11-2 -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222246#222246 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/6xb12_138.gif http://forums.matronics.com//files/6xb17_166.gif http://forums.matronics.com//files/6xb14_137.gif http://forums.matronics.com//files/6xw4_640.png ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:42 PM PST US From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns Oh No! Not the DREADED DROOPY Fortunes! Paul do not archive At 02:03 PM 1/1/2009, you wrote: > >I find my Zenith doth depend upon >A most auspicious star, whose influence >If now I court not, but omit, my fortunes >Will ever after droop. Here cease more questions. > >(Tempest I.ii.217-220) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "David X" If you are pursuing something pertinent to possible design differences with CZAW and ZAC plans ... by all means do not cease asking questions. I have a set of designs that go with the plane and I can send pictures, perform measurements etc. No question in this regard is unimportant. Sabrina wrote: > I find my Zenith doth depend upon > A most auspicious star, whose influence > If now I court not, but omit, my fortunes > Will ever after droop. Here cease more questions. > > (Tempest I.ii.217-220) -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222249#222249 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:27 PM PST US From: Walter Carey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report You're on the list Dave. Walt. --- On Thu, 1/1/09, David X wrote: From: David X Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report I can't imagine why someone would spend so much money and time on such a thing as aircraft, yet not invest a few hundred in a cable tension meter (or pay an AP to check the tensions). There's cheap, and then there's foolish. zenithlist(at)yahoo.com wrote: > Walter, > > I think your idea of share cable tension gauge is great. It allows the gauge to be more accessible, and, hopefully, more planes to be correctly tensioned. Put me in your list. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222214#222214 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:25 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report From: "David X" Take me off the list ... I already have a cable tension meter and a gaggle of other tools needed to properly maintain an aircraft. Their costs were minimal compared to the cost of the aircraft. Perhaps you have an altimeter, airspeed indicator, compass and set of engine gauges too. Those cost more than a cable tension meter. You should start a list to share those. careywf(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: > You're on the list Dave. Walt. -------- Zodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S DO NOT ARCHIVE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222257#222257 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: XL wing concerns From: "Sabrina" David, is your aircraft N601NJ, the one I saw at Air Venture 2005? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222269#222269 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:04 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report From: "Sabrina" Dear David Johnson, N601NJ was at Air Venture 2005. Jim Pellien put it up for sale later that year as an ELSA that is authorized for commercial flight training. I remember finding it strange that a factory built aircraft was not certified as an S-LSA but rather as an E-LSA. Is this because it was not built to the same standards as the other CZAW S-LSA aircraft imported into the US? Could this be a 4th version of CZAW that I missed? I could not find your IA, AP, Repairman Light Sport Aircraft or Repairman Experimental Aircraft Builder certificate. Is this because E-LSA owners can get the RLSA certificate after attending the repairman course--but not corporations, or is it because you did not build it, CZAW did, so the REAR certificate was not available either? This is a strange situation. It is not an S-LSA so you dont have to follow CZAW standards for repair. It is an E-LSA, but since it is owned by a corporation, and the airworthiness certificate allows for commercial operations, it must be maintained by an IA/AP. Correct? When you took the top skin off making it obvious that the skins are part of the support structure, was that owner preventative maintenance or can just anyone 18 or over repair an E-LSA that is authorized for commercial flight training? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222286#222286 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/air_venture_2005_169.jpg ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:30 PM PST US From: John Smith Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report Being cheap or foolish is irrelevant.- The important thing is the have th e cables tensioned correctly anyway possible, and Walter is offering one- method to do just that.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFr om: David X =0ATo: zenith601-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Th ursday, January 1, 2009 1:22:40 PM=0ASubject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB repo =0A=0AI can't imagine why someone would spend so much money and time on suc h a thing as aircraft, yet not invest a few hundred in a cable tension mete r (or pay an AP to check the tensions). There's cheap, and then there's foo lish.=0A=0A=0Azenithlist(at)yahoo.com wrote:=0A> Walter,=0A>- =0A>- I t hink your idea of share cable tension gauge is great.- It allows the gaug e to be more accessible, and, hopefully, more planes to be correctly tensio ned.- Put me in your list.=0A=0A=0A--------=0AZodiac 601 XL - CZAW Built - Rotax 912S=0ADO NOT ARCHIVE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222214#222214=0A=0A=0A=0A ========0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:40 PM PST US From: Bryan Martin Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report Some CZAW built 601s were registered in the US as ELSAs under the "fat Ultralight" clause. They couldn't be registered as E-AB because of the 51% rule or the SLSA rule because they weren't built to the consensus standards (or it was built before the LSA rule was approved). The "fat ultralight" clause expired this past February. ELSAs can be used for flight training until 2010 under the LSA rules. An ELSA can be maintained by anyone, the annual must be signed off by someone with an R-LSA-I (inspection) or better certificate. If the ELSA is actually used for hire for flight training, the maintenance rules get stricter, an R-LSA-M (Maintenance) or better is required. On Jan 1, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Sabrina wrote: > > > Dear David Johnson, > > N601NJ was at Air Venture 2005. Jim Pellien put it up for sale > later that year as an ELSA that is authorized for commercial flight > training. I remember finding it strange that a factory built > aircraft was not certified as an S-LSA but rather as an E-LSA. > > Is this because it was not built to the same standards as the other > CZAW S-LSA aircraft imported into the US? Could this be a 4th > version of CZAW that I missed? > > I could not find your IA, AP, Repairman Light Sport Aircraft or > Repairman Experimental Aircraft Builder certificate. > > Is this because E-LSA owners can get the RLSA certificate after > attending the repairman course--but not corporations, or is it > because you did not build it, CZAW did, so the REAR certificate was > not available either? > > This is a strange situation. It is not an S-LSA so you dont have > to follow CZAW standards for repair. It is an E-LSA, but since it > is owned by a corporation, and the airworthiness certificate allows > for commercial operations, it must be maintained by an IA/AP. > Correct? > > When you took the top skin off making it obvious that the skins > are part of the support structure, was that owner preventative > maintenance or can just anyone 18 or over repair an E-LSA that is > authorized for commercial flight training? > -- Bryan Martin N61BM, CH 601 XL, RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive. do not archive. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:59 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: NTSB report From: "Sabrina" Bryan, Where an S-LSA is converted into an E-LSA, I was told that it could not be repaired by just anyone. The basis is 14 CFR 43.1. First, there is a prior EU Airworthiness Certificate which is equivalent to a previously issued FAA certificate so there is no experimental exemption for an E-LSA previously certified as airworthy by an S-LSA mfg. 14 CFR 43.1(b) Second, Part 43 applies to any aircraft issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light sport category EXCEPT where the products are not produced under an FAA approval... without the double negative: Part 43 applies to all LSAs where the part being installed or repaired was produced under an FAA approval. Parts provided by Zenith or Can Zac would be exempt and could be installed or repaired on an E-LSA by anyone over 18 assuming no commercial use. Parts provided by CZAW or AMD would not be exempt. Since the parts on the converted E-LSA were produced by CZAW, Part 43 applies and an RLSA or higher is required to repair them. Correct? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=222326#222326 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:50 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith601-List: Official Zenith601-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith601-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Zenith601-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith601-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "zenith601-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Zenith601-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Zenith601-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/zenith601-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Zenith601-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Zenith601-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Zenith601-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Zenith601-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Zenith601-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Zenith601-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Zenith601-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Zenith601-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Zenith601-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Zenith601-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Zenith601-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Zenith601 ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith601-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith601-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith601-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith601-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith601-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:35 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Zenith601-List: Official Zenith601-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Zenith601-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Zenith601-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Zenith601-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Zenith601-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Zenith601-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Zenith601-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Zenith601-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Zenith601-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.