---------------------------------------------------------- Zenith601-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/17/09: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:06 AM - Re: Re: Cowling winterization plate (David Downey) 2. 07:53 AM - Re: Cowling winterization plate (Sabrina) 3. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Cowling winterization plate (Jim Belcher) 4. 09:01 AM - Duct tape removal (Terry Turnquist) 5. 09:29 AM - Re: Cowling winterization plate (Sabrina) 6. 09:41 AM - Re: Re: Dutch XL crash findings () 7. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: Cowling winterization plate (Jim Belcher) 8. 10:37 AM - Re: Cowling winterization plate () 9. 08:59 PM - Re: Dutch XL crash findings (Ron Lendon) 10. 09:45 PM - Re: Dutch XL crash findings (Sabrina) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:09 AM PST US From: David Downey Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling winterization plate Only use lacquer thinner or acetone if the finish can take it...don't ask h ow I know these things... David L. Downey Harleysville-(SE) PA, USA --- On Fri, 1/16/09, Paul Mulwitz wrote: From: Paul Mulwitz Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling winterization plate ...If there is any problem removing the adhesive, just use a little lacque r thinner on a rag to wipe it off. =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:11 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling winterization plate From: "Sabrina" To get duct tape adhesive off your paint... take a strip of the same type of duct tape, take a knife and scrape off the adhesive, form that adhesive into a little ball, use that ball on your painted surface, it picks up the old adhesive like magic. My grandpa, God rest his soul, used to call it the "Hair of the Dog that bit me." And yes, he liked Red Green a lot too, what would you expect from someone born and raised in Green Bay. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225293#225293 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:35 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling winterization plate On Friday 16 January 2009 21:30, Sabrina wrote: > > There is at least one oil sump blanket that is STC'd for the O-200A in > flight. Use that and then pre-heat your oil with a plug in dip stick > heater that is removed before flight. > This is one of the issues we face during the relative infancy of the whole LSA thing. An STC applies to a type certificated configuration. Unless the O200A is being maintained and annualed by an IA, its type certification probably isn't being maintained. If the O200A were installed on a type certificated aircraft, one could visit the question as to whether the sump blanket were type certificated for the engine installation on that specific aircraft. But it isn't, it's on an LSA, where the STC does not apply (an LSA doesn't have a type certificate). What I'm saying is that I don't think the FAA's rules have as yet fully addressed this situation. I have a question(s) in to the FAA on this and related certification/maintenance subjects. I'm hoping I get something definitive enough to share. Yes, that's probably a naive hope. :-) ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:41 AM PST US From: Terry Turnquist Subject: Zenith601-List: Duct tape removal There's a product called "GOO GONE" which works great. Test on paint before using. Get it at Hobby shops like Michael's etc. To get duct tape adhesive off your paint... take a strip of the same type of duct tape, take a knife and scrape off the adhesive, form that adhesive into a little ball, use that ball on your painted surface, it picks up the old adhesive like magic. My grandpa, God rest his soul, used to call it the "Hair of the Dog that bit me." And yes, he liked Red Green a lot too, what would you expect from someone born and raised in Green Bay. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225293#225293 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:55 AM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling winterization plate From: "Sabrina" Jay has an S-LSA. I can't imagine AMD approving any appliance for the engine that has not been STC'd as to that engine. Just their changing out the FAA-PMA spark plugs for Auto plugs required a lot of testing and analysis that Jay is not in the position to do re: a non-STC'd oil sump blanket. You are correct in pointing out that just because it is STC'd does not mean an IA or AP can install it on the S-LSA, only AMD can approve such an installation. Their exhaust configuration my not allow for such an installation. It is different story for the airframe--they built it and could approve anything. Question, can Jay put oil additives in an S-LSA that are not on the approved list of lubricants from AMD? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225312#225312 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:05 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Dutch XL crash findings The two part leading edge skins ought not to be a problem. Several manufacturers do that. As long as the two skins meet (and overlap appropriately) on a nose rib, and are properly riveted, the joint will be at least as strong as the single piece. I agree with you on the forward cant to the spar, and I'd certainly like the upper flange to be on the FORWARD face of the spar. If you need to open up to do a repair, or get to the tank, you either have to open up about 5 or 6 rivets behind the spar, or figure out how to remove the rivet stubs rattling around in there. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: ashontz To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:23 PM Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Dutch XL crash findings > Regardless of the cause, (most likely overstress from pilot error or shodding building in caparison to how Zenith would specifiy or build it themselves), one thing that is pretty consistent is HOW the wing breaks when it does break. That is: near the root, top of spar buckling forward, as would be suspected considering the slight forward cant to the spar. Personally, I'd rather see NO forward cant and I'm sure makes the wing slightly weaker than I'd prefer, but not weaker than the properly build design limitation, but whatever. What that means is, if that's the weak link (not necessarily the problem), but the weak link in the wing itself, maybe double up on rivets in that area or use even better pulled rivets or possibly even bucked rivets. I'd also stay away from the 15 gallon tanks keeping all the ribs (rear and nose ribs) in line instead of offset around the tank extension. I wouldn't mess with multiple piece leading edge skins (ie. providing easier access to the fuel tank) and instead use just one continuous 12' leading edge skin, and I wouldn't mess with the wing locker. But that's just me. -------- Andy Shontz do not archive CH601XL - Corvair www.mykitlog.com/ashontz Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=224969#224969 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:20 AM PST US From: Jim Belcher Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Re: Cowling winterization plate On Saturday 17 January 2009 11:29, Sabrina wrote: > > Jay has an S-LSA. > > I can't imagine AMD approving any appliance for the engine that has not > been STC'd as to that engine. Just their changing out the FAA-PMA spark > plugs for Auto plugs required a lot of testing and analysis that Jay is not > in the position to do re: a non-STC'd oil sump blanket. > > You are correct in pointing out that just because it is STC'd does not mean > an IA or AP can install it on the S-LSA, only AMD can approve such an > installation. Their exhaust configuration my not allow for such an > installation. > > It is different story for the airframe--they built it and could approve > anything. That is my point exactly. Any change to the LSA must come from the manufacturer, not from the FAA. We can't base our usage on approval from some other airworthiness system. The manufacturer can probably use that as a basis, if they so desire, but we can't. > Question, can Jay put oil additives in an S-LSA that are not on the > approved list of lubricants from AMD? My gut feeling is no, he cannot legally do so. But these are the exact kinds of questions I'm hoping to get the FAA to clarify. It's very confusing to an IA/A&P. Although we sometimes curse the FAA for giving us too much of the wrong kind of guidance, it's probably worse not to have any guidance. I don't think we can really do much more in some cases than say that there is no approved procedure by the relevant airworthiness authority. In the case of Jay's additives, that would be the manufacturer of the LSA, AMD. If AMD didn't specifically approve it, I'd say it's not approved. An example for certificated aircraft would be the use of a non-approved lubricant. For example, I've run into some who thought it was a really great idea to use Mouse Milk as an additive in certificated engines. I probably don't need to say that Mouse Milk is not on the approved list for any general aviation engine of which I am aware. Our authority, such as it is, is derived from whoever controls the airworthiness for a given aircraft. I suspect many of us don't feel comfortable signing log book entries without an approved airworthiness basis for whatever was just done. Once a year, there are nationwide training sessions for IA's, which are used as a basis for the continuance of our IA. One of the better ones is in the Dallas area. It covers questions IAs are having in the field: areas of conflicting guidance, and areas of no guidance. It also usually covers signifcant general aviation crashes of the year, and what really happened. I submitted my questions about LSA maintenance and certification issues to the people who conduct that training session. I was told that they would try to create a session to address these issues, and clarify the FAA position. Assuming that happens, I'm going to request permission to make the LSA part of the presentation available to this list. And, if you are in the Dallas area, the seminar is open to all (but with a $100+ fee). I believe it's on Feb 28, this year. You can get details on it at ASOD.com. I've found that often the information is of broader interest to those maintaining their own aircraft than just IAs. But a word of caution: it starts at 0730 and ends around 1700. It's pretty cram-packed. The donuts are good, though! -- ============================================ Do not archive. ============================================ Jim B Belcher BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science A&P/IA Retired aerospace technical manager ============================================ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:00 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Cowling winterization plate Right on, Paul---I used rivnuts for the forward upper skin, and, 78 rivnuts leter, found that almost 1/4th of them spun. There;s a little protrusion on each one that allegedly digs into the side of the hole and is supposed to hold it. It don't. 78 nut plates later, a guy suggested dipping each rivnut in epoxy or Proseal to keep them from spinning. Ah, yes, the sequence of life: 1. You have a problem. 2. You come up with a solution. 3. It's the wrong solution. 4. You correct the solution. 5. Some guy comes along with an easier solution. Paul Rodriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Mulwitz To: zenith601-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Zenith601-List: Cowling winterization plate > Hi Jay, First, I would stay away from rivnuts. They have a horrible reputation for spinning in their holes so you can't unfasten the screws later on. If you feel you must use threaded fasteners, then you should learn about nut-plates or just use bolts and nuts. You might do a lot better to use ordinary pulled rivets. I suggest you practice a little at installing them and drilling them out when you want them to be gone. To be consistent with the construction of the plane you should use Avex rivets (get a fellow Zenith builder to donate a handful of them - we all have lots of extras). For something like these air baffles you would probably be ok with hardware store rivets. Perhaps 1/8" aluminum short or medium length. You might start with .025 or .016 6061-T6 sheet metal and drill first with #40 pilot drill and then line-drill with #30 for the 1/8" rivets. (Line drilling is when you drill through both connecting sheets at the same time. This gets the holes perfectly lined up.) I'd suggest leaving the firewall alone and using the skin behind the firewall for your new baffle attachment. Good luck, Paul XL getting close Good luck, Paul At 05:39 PM 1/16/2009, you wrote: > > >I need to do something to make my O-200 happier in the winter. I haven't >seen oil temperatures above 140 F since it got cold around here. that's >making me nervous about not boiling the condensation out of the oil. > >The O-200, at least in the AMD Zodiac, does not have an oil cooler to cover >up. That means I need to restrict airflow through the cowling. I've spoken >to an owner in Crookston, Minnesota, and he recommended that I first make a >plate to cover the air exit from the bottom of the cowling, and then add >plates at the inlet only if that doesn't do enough. I've got no problems >with that plan in general. The question I have, however, is simple: How do I >attach the plate? > >The forward end would need to attach somewhere inside the lower cowl, >forward of the opening. That's easily enough done: holes in the cowl itself, >and rivnuts in the plate. The fun comes in attaching the rear of the plate >to the firewall. Suggestions? More rivnuts at the bottom of the firewall >itself, or are there better ideas? >-- >Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com >http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net >Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!) >AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith601-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Dutch XL crash findings From: "Ron Lendon" Sabrina, Are those your gussets on the outside of the skin? I read the print that the gussets were inside the skin. They are represented by a hidden line and that usually indicates behind the outer material. -------- Ron Lendon, Clinton Township, MI WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing Zodiac XL, ScrapBuilder ;-) http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225426#225426 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:08 PM PST US Subject: Zenith601-List: Re: Dutch XL crash findings From: "Sabrina" Good point Ron... see attached... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=225430#225430 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/gussetsv2_466.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message zenith601-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Zenith601-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/zenith601-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/zenith601-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.